What Family did Joe Valachi REALLY belong to?

[Angelo Santino]

https://s12.postimg.org/485frrq4t/1900_1931_chart.jpg

[Antiliar]

Before he was boss of the Morello group, Masseria was associated with Cola Schiro's people. Can't say if he was made or not. Chris Christie can correct me if I'm forgetting, but I seem to recall that Salvatore Clemente said he wasn't made until 1923 (he didn't use the word "made" but something equivalent). That didn't make sense to me so I'm not sure the Secret Service accurate wrote down what Clemente said. Anyway, it's possible that Masseria was a made member of the Schiro Family.

1923 seems wayyy to late for Clementes induction. As far as Masseria being part of the Schiro family I'd bet the farm it's a piece of info Joe Bonanno would have given us if true.

No, not Clemente's induction, Clemente said he (Masseria) wasn't made until 1923. The "he" referred to the subject of the previous sentence. Thanks to Chris double-checking it was a DiMatteo who said Masseria wasn't made until 1923, not Clemente.

[Angelo Santino]

Before he was boss of the Morello group, Masseria was associated with Cola Schiro's people. Can't say if he was made or not. Chris Christie can correct me if I'm forgetting, but I seem to recall that Salvatore Clemente said he wasn't made until 1923 (he didn't use the word "made" but something equivalent). That didn't make sense to me so I'm not sure the Secret Service accurate wrote down what Clemente said. Anyway, it's possible that Masseria was a made member of the Schiro Family.

1923 seems wayyy to late for Clementes induction. As far as Masseria being part of the Schiro family I'd bet the farm it's a piece of info Joe Bonanno would have given us if true.

No, not Clemente's induction, Clemente said he (Masseria) wasn't made until 1923. The "he" referred to the subject of the previous sentence. Thanks to Chris double-checking it was a DiMatteo who said Masseria wasn't made until 1923, not Clemente.

It was 1921 wasn't it? Maybe I'm mistaken also, it's been a few years and I'm going by memory. Kinda concluded with the Sicilians some time ago.

Clemente was made before 1895 and during his incarceration became an imformant. He came back onto the NY scene in 1911 and after Giovanni Pecoraro (acting boss for Morello) received his "papers" from Chicago (I think it was that city) Clemente officially rejoined the Corleonesi and stayed active until the 1920's. During that time, he left Stella Frauto and remarried an American woman and changed his surname to Clement, his son became an attorney. His "career" was very different than his contemporary Nick Gentile who I don't think ever bothered to learn English nor navigated beyond the "mafia bubble." Not all made members conducted themselves like this. Morello was involved with Irish hoods as early as 1898 I believe. Sicilian, Jewish, Irish whatever, gang affiliations aside, they all had to work in this criminal biosphere and it made sense to be pragmatic in your underworld dealings.

[Pogo The Clown]

Going from an associate to the most powerful boss in the country in 5 years. Not to shabby for the fat pig.


Pogo

[HairyKnuckles]

In addition to the three mentioned by Gentile....wasn´t Biondo also condemned? I think I remember reading he was, but was back into good graces when he was given the task to kill Masseria. I could be wrong.

[Angelo Santino]

Going from an associate to the most powerful boss in the country in 5 years. Not to shabby for the fat pig.


Pogo

I think Prohibition upended the Mafia to an extent by providing an opportunity for non-members to become quite rich and influential. Regardless of the informants' accuracy, Masseria was already a bootleg millionaire before the time he was alleged to have become a boss. And regardless of whether he was made in Schiro's group or not prior, it demonstrates the connections he had prior to the '20's. Also Charles Masseria was a member in Cleveland as early as the 1910. Masseria didn't come from out of nowhere.

And while it is rare to go from associate to capo/above/boss, it's not totally unheard of. The Mafia never had a system to prevent such scenarios from happening and there are examples of it occurring. Antonino Calderone said it best: "We're all equals and if someone is worthy enough to become a member then he's worthy enough to become boss." Which only works when the vetting system for membership is strongly implemented. As New York evolved from small borgate into 200-300 man armies, obviously this POV changed. But outside of NY where families remained small things were more equal. In Philly Harry Riccobene mentioned that he had a shot at becoming boss at some point after Joe Idea fled.

PS: Maranzano weighed more than Masseria at the time of his death and there was a girdle found on his deceased person.

[Angelo Santino]

In addition to the three mentioned by Gentile....wasn´t Biondo also condemned? I think I remember reading he was, but was back into good graces when he was given the task to kill Masseria. I could be wrong.

I never heard of this situation involving Biondo before. Could you be thinking of Umberto Valente?

[HairyKnuckles]

In addition to the three mentioned by Gentile....wasn´t Biondo also condemned? I think I remember reading he was, but was back into good graces when he was given the task to kill Masseria. I could be wrong.

I never heard of this situation involving Biondo before. Could you be thinking of Umberto Valente?

Aah yes. Of course. Thanks for the correction.

[Pogo The Clown]

PS: Maranzano weighed more than Masseria at the time of his death and there was a girdle found on his deceased person.

He was a fine example of a Sicilian male: robust, about five feet nine inches tall, full bodied but with no excess flaccid flesh on him, deep chested, with sturdy muscular arms and legs. He was said to be able to snap a man’s neck with his thumbs and to leap amazing distances.


Pogo

[Angelo Santino]

PS: Maranzano weighed more than Masseria at the time of his death and there was a girdle found on his deceased person.

He was a fine example of a Sicilian male: robust, about five feet nine inches tall, full bodied but with no excess flaccid flesh on him, deep chested, with sturdy muscular arms and legs. He was said to be able to snap a man’s neck with his thumbs and to leap amazing distances.


Pogo

JB's book is one of the greats but when speaking of Maranzano parts of it read like a softcore porn novel, the chapter you're quoting could have been titled 50 Shades of Maranzano.

[Pogo The Clown]

JB's book is one of the greats but when speaking of Maranzano parts of it read like a softcore porn novel, the chapter you're quoting could have been titled 50 Shades of Maranzano.

I attended a dinner that many Castellammarese friends in Brooklyn gave to welcome him. We embraced heartily and kissed. I felt honored and privileged just to be near him. I suppose it was like falling in love, only it was between men. When I was around Maranzano, I felt more alive. More alert, more called upon to fulfill my potential. I found him irresistible, he found me refreshing.


Pogo

[Angelo Santino]

Touché. Now with these passages in mind look up what JB wrote about Masseria: Joe the Glutton, Joe the Chinese etc. Definite bias. The man was rotund with a moon face but he wasn't morbidly obese. If you look at Tommy Geioli's double DD's you'll conclude Masseria was at best an A-cup.

[Lupara]

As New York evolved from small borgate into 200-300 man armies

Does this mean that you believe that the largest families numbered no more than 300 members at their height? This is what I tend to believe myself. I think the numbers of the 70s and 80s, when the books were reopened, corresponded with the numbers of the 50s before the books were closed.

[Angelo Santino]

As New York evolved from small borgate into 200-300 man armies

Does this mean that you believe that the largest families numbered no more than 300 members at their height? This is what I tend to believe myself. I think the numbers of the 70s and 80s, when the books were reopened, corresponded with the numbers of the 50s before the books were closed.

I don't know.
In 1920 Clemente said NY had 3000 members, same era Gentile quoted 2000.
One 1940's informant said the Bonannos had 40 members.
One 70's informant said Gambino had 75 captains.

The members themselves disagree almost as much as the experts do.

[B.]

Masseria's quick rise isn't that strange when you consider Joe Bonanno and Al Capone rose almost as quickly and there are other examples after that. Rarely do you hear of seniority being an issue. Some of the old timers had an issue with Angelo Bruno's rise from soldier to boss which happened somewhere between seven to nine years, but earlier and more powerful bosses rose faster without issue.

What sets Masseria apart to me is that he rose that quickly to become boss of a seemingly new family. It makes you wonder what the circumstances were for some other families' creation and first boss. Bootlegging wealth was definitely a big part of Masseria's rise, but surely there was a lot more at play we'll never know about both his rise and the reasons for other families getting created. You have to wonder too if the earliest mafiosi in America were largely independent and affiliated strictly with their original Sicilian family, or if the mafia immediately began installing bosses in the US once the first mafiosi came here.