What Family did Joe Valachi REALLY belong to?

[OlBlueEyesClub]

Maybe this was covered already, I apologize in advance if it was, but this is something that just recently began to rack my mind after I watched Joe Bonanno's full 60 Minutes segment. (It's on Youtube if anyone is interested, it's the full interview and is about half an hour long.) But anyway, there's a clip which shows Joe Valachi's testimony, and he's saying that Joe Bonanno was his Godfather, stating essentially that he belongs to the Bonanno family. In his book, which was later released afterwards, he backs this by stating that when he was inducted, Maranzano placed him under Joe Bonanno. Then during the "grand banquet" after Masseria is killed, the book states that Valachi then is given the choice of joining Maranzano's personal guard, thus being directly under him, which he accepts, even though Valachi "entered the Cosa Nostra under the auspices of what was now the Gagliano family"(whom took over after the murders of Thomas Reina & Joe Pinzolo) Now during this banquet, according to the book, Gagliano, along with, Joseph Bonanno, Luciano, Profaci, and Vincent Mangano, were already the heads of their own family after Maranzano rearranged the families after Masseria's death. This tidbit contradicts Bonanno's own claim that he only became boss of a family after Maranzano died, taking over the remnant's of the Maranzano group, which he stated in "Man Of Honor: The Autobiography of Joseph Bonanno". Then after Maranzano is killed, he worries for a while, the guys he brought in whom remained loyal to Maranzano were murdered, then he meets Vito Genovese via Girolamo "Bobby Doyle" Santucci and Dominick "The Gap" Petrilli, where shortly after, Valachi, again according to his book, is placed under the leadership of Genovese, thus making him a member of the then, Luciano Family, which went on to become the Genovese Family, which I always assumed was the family Valachi always belonged to, from the way he talks about his relationship with Vito.

Going by his book alone, Valachi belonged to at least three different families during various stages of his free life. All in all, a relationship with Joe Bonanno is hardly mentioned by neither he nor Peter Maas. Valachi cites a couple of different memories of his, which show that he was a somewhat close associate of Tommy Lucchese, and he supposedly was supposed to marry Tommy Reina's daughter, yet again, during his recollection of his making ceremony, he's placed under Joe Bonanno, NOT Gagliano. So where does that line in the book come from? And whats the basis of it, or could it have simply been a production error, during the many re-writes and alterations of the book? Is there any actual documentation that confirms which family this man actually belonged to?

[Hailbritain]

In my opinion he was a Genovese soldier

[OlBlueEyesClub]

That's the opinion I've always shared. But as said, the segment during the Bonanno interview made me curious, then when I go to check the book, I'm reminded that the book claims that he was apart of three different families at some points in his life.

[B.]

He was an associate of the Lucchese family and made into that family when it was operating under Maranzano's war leadership, then he was placed directly with Maranzano. It's believed he was considered a member of the Bonannos for a time, but we don't know that for sure, only that he was given the option of staying with that family after the war, which he did. Tommy Lucchese had a problem with this and told Joe Valachi that it was a mistake and they would correct it, which indicates that Valachi was in fact a Lucchese soldier the whole time in Lucchese's eyes, but Valachi decided to stick with Maranzano despite Lucchese's wishes. After Maranzano died, Valachi was able to become a member of the Genovese family as is well known.

I made a topic a few years ago talking about how Valachi messed up by not staying with the Luccheses. He married Tom Reina's daughter, and Tom Reina was someone who was still held in high regard with the Lucchese leadership well after his death, plus the other Reina relatives were members of that family. A lot of Valachi's early associates/friendships were with members of the Luccheses, he was brought into the mafia through his association with that family, and he maintained a close friendship with Tommy Lucchese for many years. He ended up becoming abused by the Genovese leadership, when if he had stayed with his original family he would have likely been a "somebody" in the smaller close-knit Luccheses where he had in-laws and old friends.

He wasn't placed "under" Joe Bonanno either, by the way -- the number game that was sometimes used in making ceremonies wasn't meant to determine a guy's captain, but his "compare" or godfather, which is how Valachi and others describe it. When it was used in Philadelphia for example, it meant that the member could go to his "compare", who was someone he could consult with when needed. With the way things worked out with Maranzano, Joe Bonanno becoming a boss, and Valachi rarely crossing paths with the Brooklyn Bonannos, it seems Bonanno's designation as his "compare" was forgotten. Joe Bonanno straight up denied ever knowing Valachi.

[Pogo The Clown]

plus the other Reina relatives were members of that family.

Do you know who his other relatives were (other than his son Gaetano)? Thanks.


Pogo

[OlBlueEyesClub]

He was an associate of the Lucchese family and made into that family when it was operating under Maranzano's war leadership, then he was placed directly with Maranzano. It's believed he was considered a member of the Bonannos for a time, but we don't know that for sure, only that he was given the option of staying with that family after the war, which he did. Tommy Lucchese had a problem with this and told Joe Valachi that it was a mistake and they would correct it, which indicates that Valachi was in fact a Lucchese soldier the whole time in Lucchese's eyes, but Valachi decided to stick with Maranzano despite Lucchese's wishes. After Maranzano died, Valachi was able to become a member of the Genovese family as is well known.

I made a topic a few years ago talking about how Valachi messed up by not staying with the Luccheses. He married Tom Reina's daughter, and Tom Reina was someone who was still held in high regard with the Lucchese leadership well after his death, plus the other Reina relatives were members of that family. A lot of Valachi's early associates/friendships were with members of the Luccheses, he was brought into the mafia through his association with that family, and he maintained a close friendship with Tommy Lucchese for many years. He ended up becoming abused by the Genovese leadership, when if he had stayed with his original family he would have likely been a "somebody" in the smaller close-knit Luccheses where he had in-laws and old friends.

He wasn't placed "under" Joe Bonanno either, by the way -- the number game that was sometimes used in making ceremonies wasn't meant to determine a guy's captain, but his "compare" or godfather, which is how Valachi and others describe it. When it was used in Philadelphia for example, it meant that the member could go to his "compare", who was someone he could consult with when needed. With the way things worked out with Maranzano, Joe Bonanno becoming a boss, and Valachi rarely crossing paths with the Brooklyn Bonannos, it seems Bonanno's designation as his "compare" was forgotten. Joe Bonanno straight up denied ever knowing Valachi.

Great analysis of it all, B. My post was pretty vague just stating the general portions of the book, but your post contained a lot of information about the who's , when's, and why's. And when I said Valachi was placed under Bonanno, I didn't mean his captain, I did mean his Godfather/Boss. But the way you're explaining it , in Philly it was just meant as an advisory figure, instead of a boss? I don't know if that"s what you meant or not, so just though't I'd ask. I agree with everything you said though about Bonanno and Valachi, that's why I was confused when the clip showed of Valachi saying that Joe Bonanno was his Godfather and he belonged to the Bonanno Family. Then in the book it talks about Marannzano making them play the "numbers game" and Bonanno wins and Maranzano declared Joe Bonanno as Valachi's compare, or "Godfather" And Valachi should've stayed with the Reina/Gagliano/Lucchese family then because it sound's like he would of had it made, he had the connections after marrying Reina's daughter, he was close to Lucchese, he almost certainly would've been more than a lowly soldier, but instead a captain at least. But with his wife being whom she was, his friends being whom they were within that Family, he had a real chance of being a part of the administration in the immediate future after Maranzano died. But instead he switches over to the Genovese Family, and is pulled into the drug game by Tony Bender, and ends up going to prison, and getting a contract on his head, being declared persona non grata. Like, what the hell was he thinking and how did he figure that would be a good idea?

[Antiliar]

Part the problem with Valachi being with the Luccheses was how he cheated on his wife so much that he was hardly ever home and became estranged from her. If Reina was still respected after his death, that might not have played well.

[HairyKnuckles]

plus the other Reina relatives were members of that family.

Do you know who his other relatives were (other than his son Gaetano)? Thanks.


Pogo

Gaetano Reina´s brother Antonino may have been a made guy and an early crew leader. In 1913 he was arrested for planting a bomb at Barnet Baff´s house. Baff was kosher poultry dealer who was killed a year later. No evidence of Antonino Reina ever being made but he was no choir boy.

[B.]

Valachi never came across as very sharp when it came to mob politics. He was always getting himself into trouble and he depended on other guys (even other new recruits) to find his way around and survive. I don't think he would have climbed the ranks of the Luccheses necessarily if he stuck with them, but he at least would have been part of a closer-knit group. Relations, even through marriage, were extremely important in the Lucchese family back then and it would have given him an advantage. The Genovese family cared the least about kinship.

The Genovese thing doesn't make a lot of sense until you consider that Valachi was a Neapolitan and the Lucchese family was dominated by Sicilians. Valachi had been mentored in prison by Camorra member Vollero, and Valachi was familiar with history of Sicilian vs. Neapolitan problems. He never mentions that in relation to his move to the Genovese, all he says is that someone (maybe Bobby Doyle, can't recall) told him "Go with Vito" after Maranzano died and he followed the advice. The assumption in Valachi's book is that he went with Vito because Luciano/Genovese were the new top dogs and that would keep him safe from those out to get Maranzano's followers, but I'm not sure it's that simple.

Vito Genovese was closely linked with the Camorra and the Genovese family was quickly becoming dominated by Neapolitan and Calabrian leadership after Masseria died. By joining the Genovese family, the Neapolitan Valachi was placed with a Calabrian captain who reported directly to a Neapolitan underboss who took a special interest in getting Valachi into the family, advocating for his marriage to Reina, etc. You have to wonder if Valachi was pushed toward that family because of his mainland roots and he didn't elaborate on it in the book or didn't even realize it. "Go with Vito" could have any reasoning behind it.

Something that stands out to me about Valachi is that he sponsored at least four members during the 1950s: his nephew Fiore Siano, the Pagano brothers, and Vinnie Mauro. Sure the Genovese were family, but not so large that every member could sponsor four people. He also recruited several guys who were made along with him during the Castellammarese war, so if Joe Valachi had one talent, it seems it was for recruiting prospective members. Some of those recruits he picked up seem to have been much more shrewd than he was when it came to mob politics.

[B.]

Part the problem with Valachi being with the Luccheses was how he cheated on his wife so much that he was hardly ever home and became estranged from her. If Reina was still respected after his death, that might not have played well.

Haha, that's a good point but I'm not so sure Valachi had the foresight to think "I should go with the family that will get me in the least amount of trouble if I cheat on my future wife." You never know, though, when you look at the elaborate schemes some guys come up with to get laid.

[Antiliar]

Part the problem with Valachi being with the Luccheses was how he cheated on his wife so much that he was hardly ever home and became estranged from her. If Reina was still respected after his death, that might not have played well.

Haha, that's a good point but I'm not so sure Valachi had the foresight to think "I should go with the family that will get me in the least amount of trouble if I cheat on my future wife." You never know, though, when you look at the elaborate schemes some guys come up with to get laid.

I meant if he chose to go with that Family then the cheating could have prevented him from rising up in their organization.

[johnny_scootch]

From what I've read it seems like Tommy Lucchese liked Valachi and that's what really would have helped him if he went with Gagliano family.

[B.]

They were def personal friends, as Valachi talks about going to Lucchese's house and their wives being close. At some point Valachi was involved in a beating of some Lucchese associates who had pissed off Tony Bender, which I believe was ordered without Lucchese approval, and Valachi said that Tommy Lucchese and his family distanced themselves from him after that.

[Angelo Santino]

With Valachi and Bonanno we heard the "winners" side. Had Gagliano and Maranzano been eliminated, their history would be an earlier version of The Three Capos. With Gentile we get a view that Maranzano commands a group of NYC mafia members who left the orbit and felt disenfranchised by Masseria's governance as BOB. It seems, for a time, that the Reina-Gagliano and Maranzano-Bonanno families essentially interimly merged or "made an arrangement" to combine forces temporarily against Masseria/Genoveses. The Gaglianos, coming from a Mafia background would have known of Maranzano's resume even if they had not personally met the man. I think that's where Valachi's story starts. If Valachi started out as a Lucchese, why was he made by Maranzano if Gagliano was boss of his own network? Which is questionable considering they were responsible for Pinzolo's murder who, like it or not was a Boss on a General Assembly and in the political realm of Joe Masseria, the Capo dei Capi. So perhaps Gagliano may not have been in a position to do so which is purely speculation on my part. Given that he killed his Family's boss, he may not have been politically recognized. If anything's been established on this forum it's that mafia politics/protocol play a large part in things.

My own thoughts on the C-War is that is largely overstated n the sense that it's made out to be 300 with Maranzano shouting "This is where we hold them, this is where we fight and this is where they die!" with Bonanno et all shouting "Hoot!" which was hardly the case. Most of the hits involved members in leadership, hardly what it's been made to be on-screen and had that been the case, areas like E 13th St or Elizabeth would have been 3 or 4 Quentin Tarantino films. What's more interesting is what the C-War impacted. It catapulted Maranzano to the position but his death can't be attributed to that war. His removal from the BOB is noteworthy because he was the last BOB. Following his death a Commission of NY and other bosses was implemented, which in previous times interim commissions were set up on the general assembly in the 10's and 20's, this new Commission replaced the final arbitrator position. But the C-War itself changed little if anything. The war of 1923 caused the split of the Gen/Luch and is essentially the reason we have five and not four crime families in NYC I'd call that more significant. And the war of 1913 is significant because it appears to have been the very first interfamily mob war and what transpired during and after, resulted in the '23 war a decade later.

As in the case of Valachi, his contacts as an associate/hood were Lucchese where he came up in East Harlem and had a hatred Ciro Terranova which is probably why he wasn't Masseria'd up. Instead his contacts into the underworld was through Lucchese associates. During the C-War he was introduced to Maranzano, the hit crew he went with included Bonanno and Lucchese members, which reinforces the "combined forces" that both networks were temporarily aligned in. I'm not sure if they merged as one group or it was just a temporary alliance, arguments could be made both ways and in the case of Valachi being E Harlem-Lucchese orbited and coming into Maranzano's galaxy, it makes no sense for him to be made with the Bonannos given he had no contacts with them, nothing of significance apart from Maranzano.

Now Antiliar, I'm going by what I read in TVP w Peter Mass, you read Valachi's original manuscript so you may have a more evolved perspective. If you have an alternate opinion or there is something I said that needs correcting or disagree with, please share.

[Angelo Santino]

The Genovese thing doesn't make a lot of sense until you consider that Valachi was a Neapolitan and the Lucchese family was dominated by Sicilians. Valachi had been mentored in prison by Camorra member Vollero, and Valachi was familiar with history of Sicilian vs. Neapolitan problems. He never mentions that in relation to his move to the Genovese, all he says is that someone (maybe Bobby Doyle, can't recall) told him "Go with Vito" after Maranzano died and he followed the advice. The assumption in Valachi's book is that he went with Vito because Luciano/Genovese were the new top dogs and that would keep him safe from those out to get Maranzano's followers, but I'm not sure it's that simple.

Bingo! Valachi had virtually no ties to Williamsburgh/The Bonannos/Marcy Ave. Hitting Al Mineo with Buster is alot different than answering to one of Joe Bonanno's capos. You raised an interesting point: when the power was Maranzano, Valachi went with him, when it became Luciano/Gen he jumped the fence again like a typical fucking wiseguy. To his credit he expressed genuine shock at Maranzano's murder and either decided it was better to be with compaesani either due to safety or money making opportunities. He was Harlem born and becoming a Genovese would allow him better access to that area. And going with the Genovese which by that point was primarily lead by Sicilian-American (non-affiliated Mafia family) Luciano, and Genovese and perhaps (?) Costello which, when compared to say the Bonannos where JB even bragged aboutt nepotism, where would JV stand a better chance? If I was him I'd have went with the Gens too.

Vito Genovese was closely linked with the Camorra and the Genovese family was quickly becoming dominated by Neapolitan and Calabrian leadership after Masseria died. By joining the Genovese family, the Neapolitan Valachi was placed with a Calabrian captain who reported directly to a Neapolitan underboss who took a special interest in getting Valachi into the family, advocating for his marriage to Reina, etc. You have to wonder if Valachi was pushed toward that family because of his mainland roots and he didn't elaborate on it in the book or didn't even realize it. "Go with Vito" could have any reasoning behind it.

Errrr, I'd be careful with that, not to split hairs but I'd say he was associated with a few Camorra members. The Camorra, rather the Napolitan NYC version is an entirely different topic, one I don't feel comfortable getting into at this point, but let's put it this way: The Neapolitans were an underworld faction, they went with various families but those connections and being Napolitan' remained until the 1970's and '80's. The fact that Al D'Arco brought up Navy St from the fucking 1910's in his memorie only emphasizes that point. The San Gennaro festival, pizza, Mulberry St is Napolitan. Consider this: the mafia, in which everyone was absorbed into, was dominated primarily with stuffy Sicilian pricks who were trying to adhere to a tradition. If were we to do a comparison we'd put Bonanno, Bruno and Castellano on one side and members like Scarfo, Gotti and Massino on the other. All three men grew up around the American LCN and emphasized those rules. No one can argue how much it would have sucked being under Bonanno or Profaci unless you were related to them, and guys in the 80's thought Castellano was bad... Now when I say Sicilians I mean American Sicilian families with a long history associated with either the NYC or Sicilian Mafias for a prolonged period of time. Any other Sicilians (like Gravano) were in the same boat as the rest of the NYC Italian criminal demographic. And at this point you can rest it solely on family, no one was getting made because they came from this city or that city in 1980. But even still the bloodlines continue. Dellacroce's crew of Mulberry was primarily Napolitan and given it's locational importance since the 1900's I can understand why he was made underboss but would like to know more about his crew's lineage. There's history there that I havn't touched upon.

Something that stands out to me about Valachi is that he sponsored at least four members during the 1950s: his nephew Fiore Siano, the Pagano brothers, and Vinnie Mauro. Sure the Genovese were family, but not so large that every member could sponsor four people. He also recruited several guys who were made along with him during the Castellammarese war, so if Joe Valachi had one talent, it seems it was for recruiting prospective members. Some of those recruits he picked up seem to have been much more shrewd than he was when it came to mob politics.

Interesting observation. Any further opinions you care to share? You think he was lying or overstating? Cafaro had a very Valachi-like tale: close to the boss, never risen beyond soldier, flipped when he felt betrayed. You raise some very good points.