Genovese leadership and their control of Philly

[B.]

Yeah, I suppose it just goes back to what I was saying about them doing it much better than others. Maybe it gives the illusion that more is going on than it really is.

In my own professional experience I know that a business that is actually running efficiently, following proper protocol, etc. is the exception to the rule, so when a business actually does those things it can make it seem like they know some secret that every other business wants to know, when in reality it's much simpler.

What the Genovese family needs to do is exploit this and offer consultations to other families. A whole new racket.

[willychichi]

Yeah, I suppose it just goes back to what I was saying about them doing it much better than others. Maybe it gives the illusion that more is going on than it really is.

In my own professional experience I know that a business that is actually running efficiently, following proper protocol, etc. is the exception to the rule, so when a business actually does those things it can make it seem like they know some secret that every other business wants to know, when in reality it's much simpler.

What the Genovese family needs to do is exploit this and offer consultations to other families. A whole new racket.

Great insights B, thanks

[Wiseguy]

Gigante and Salerno both seem to have held similar weight when they were consigliere.

I'm not sure Chin was ever actually consigliere. I know there is that account of Gravano's meeting with him that's talked about in Five Families but it seems something got lost in the translation. Below is an excerpt from case records where it appears Chin identified another guy ("Dom"), not himself, as the consigliere.

On May 25, 1976 he returned to the Hospital for ten days. In that year Salvatore Gravano, a Member of the Gambino Family, had a problem with Vincent DiNapoli, a Member of the Genovese Family, involving the construction business. Gravano arranged to meet with Gigante, then a Genovese Captain, at Gigante's club, The Triangle Social Club, where signs on the wall read "The enemy is listening" and "Tough guys don't squeal."

At the meeting Toto Auriello, Gravano's Captain, introduced a man named Dom as a Captain in the Genovese Family. Gigante immediately corrected him, saying that Dom had become the Consigliere. As a result of the meeting Gigante agreed to communicate with DiNapoli and straighten out the problem. He then did so.

http://ny.findacase.com/research/wfrmDo ... ENY.htm/qx

I go with that because that´s what the feds said at the time. They had information from number of CI and yearly updated their charts. Tieri boss, Lombardo caporegime.

Yes, that's what the feds and their charts said at the time because it was the information they had at the time. After all, wasn't that the whole idea? People believing Tieri and others were the boss while Lombardo stayed in the background? And why do these unnamed CIs (the ones in the Mary Farrel reports I assume) have more credibility, especially when we have the benefit of hindsight afterwards?

Cafaro´s testimony is contradicting other Mob witnesses´ like Fratianno´s for example, who said Tieri was boss, not Lombardo.

You're giving Fratianno, an outsider, more credibility than Cafaro, a made Genovese guy who was much closer to the whole thing? I'm sure Fratianno believed what he said but he was among those who was given the wrong info. Again, the whole idea.

I don´t understand why you chose to believe Cafaro, whose information on a lot of stuff has been proven wrong, instead of going by what the feds and other LE agencies said back in the 1970s. Just because Capeci and Raab chose to believe Cafaro, doesn´t make it a fact.

The evidence is overwhelming that Tieri was official boss. By 1975, Lombardo, due to the major stroke he suffered, was not capable to run his crew. All you´ve got is Cafaro´s testimony. But people do lie sometimes, even on the witness stand.

Because Cafaro was in a better position to know than most and he had no reason to lie. In fact, lying would have endangered his deal with the feds - a good reason to tell the truth, if you ask me. And it's not just Raab or Capeci. The FBI, as well as former prosecutors and people in the Justice Department, believed Cafaro as well. Enough to admit their previous info had been mistaken. But maybe they're not privy to the "overwhelming evidence" of Tieri being boss that you're talking about?

[InCamelot]

As far as the Philly family goes, Bobby Manna was a major powerbroker and the main liason to Philly beginning with Phil Testa's short reign and through the Scarfo years. One thing Cafaro says as well is that the consigliere is in his opinion the most important member of the family. While Manna wasn't "the boss", everything I've read about him has him as a peer of the other Genovese leaders and not a simple "number three" in the pecking order. Gigante and Salerno both seem to have held similar weight when they were consigliere.

Do you know how come he felt consigliere was the most important member of the family??

Agree about HK.

[HairyKnuckles]

Yes, that's what the feds and their charts said at the time because it was the information they had at the time. After all, wasn't that the whole idea? People believing Tieri and others were the boss while Lombardo stayed in the background? And why do these unnamed CIs (the ones in the Mary Farrel reports I assume) have more credibility, especially when we have the benefit of hindsight afterwards?

No that was never the idea. And that´s the thing! People on the internet has made this a myth because they were mislead by Cafaro´s testimony. They want to believe there was a hidden agenda of having a top secret elite runing the Genoveses and that this elite used front bosses. In reality, this wasn´t the case. And no, it´s not from Mary Farrell. You can find documents on the Mafia there but they are dated up to appr 1969 only, It comes from documents dated in the 1970s which I have in my possession.

Because Cafaro was in a better position to know than most and he had no reason to lie. In fact, lying would have endangered his deal with the feds - a good reason to tell the truth, if you ask me. And it's not just Raab or Capeci. The FBI, as well as former prosecutors and people in the Justice Department, believed Cafaro as well. Enough to admit their previous info had been mistaken. But maybe they're not privy to the "overwhelming evidence" of Tieri being boss that you're talking about?

He had reasons to tell lies. And he was coached and told by the feds what to say. So your argument holds no water. If the feds told him to say Hoover was gay, he would have said that and still not endangered his deal.

When number of CIs back in the 1970s, all say the same (Tieri boss, Lombardo caporegime) (there must have been atleast a dozen of them) versus one guy in 1988, low ranking member (Lombardo boss, used Tieri as front) I tend to go with what the dozen guys said. It´s logical. Isn´t it amazing that this one guy was the only one who knew how the Genoveses were actually being run and none of the others had a clue? (I´m being sarcastic here.)

If you´d go and ask the feds today, ask somebody who is in the know, "who was the Genovese boss back in the 1970s", after examinating the evidence, they´ll say Tieri was. Not Lombardo.

B, I meant to say "Bosses consulting their closest men is not a "Genovese thing"".

[Wiseguy]

I'm not sure why the feds would need to coach Cafaro on anything, including instructing him to say Tieri was the underboss/acting boss under Lombardo. Not only would they have no purpose for doing that but, if anything, his information could have jeopardized Tieri's conviction as the boss. Likewise, while they were doing all this coaching, why didn't they tell Cafaro to keep his mouth shut about Salerno not being the real boss since he had not long before been convicted as such in the Commission case?

Go with your files if you want but these are big holes in your theory. And you can't just say the feds today would agree that Tieri was the boss if they looked at the evidence. The feds, both now and back when Cafaro flipped, were aware of the evidence and across the board it's agreed that Lombardo was the real boss for years.

[HairyKnuckles]

I'm not sure why the feds would need to coach Cafaro on anything, including instructing him to say Tieri was the underboss/acting boss under Lombardo. Not only would they have no purpose for doing that but, if anything, his information could have jeopardized Tieri's conviction as the boss. Likewise, while they were doing all this coaching, why didn't they tell Cafaro to keep his mouth shut about Salerno not being the real boss since he had not long before been convicted as such in the Commission case?

They needed Cafaro to say that Salerno was a front boss. That way they saved themselves from embarrassment. And in the long run, without Cafaro´s coached testimony, it would have jeopardized the Salerno conviction. That way the charges against Salerno were legit because as front boss, the feds figured, Salerno was part of the Genovese Family´s decision process. It would have been harder to prove his involvment and convict him for crimes that concerned the Genovese Family if Salerno was charged as an underling. They settled on front boss because they started to target the real boss, Gigante.

Cafaro said Tieri was front boss. That´s the exact term he used. He didn´t say underboss/acting boss but used the specific term "front boss". According to him, the Genoveses had used front bosses for a long time (a ridiculous claim if you ask me because who, in his fully sane mind would want to be a front boss???). But his false claim gave weight and that´s what counted.

Anyway, this thread is about the Genovese Family leadership´s control of the Philly Family. Perhaps we can discuss the Genovese Family leadership some other time, in some other thread.

[Chucky]

One thing that always stuck out to me about Natale being the true boss was the Sodano murder. Yeah, Natale played a big role in that, but when Fiumara and Genovese made a big stink about it they didn't send for him, they sent for Merlino. And it didn't have anything to do with Natale's restrictions because he was violating them routinely plus he and Merlino met with a bunch of Colombo guys the year earlier anyway. By 1996/97 I think NY was aware that Merlino was the power in the city and Ralph was a boss with no juice on the street who basically hung with his meth buddies in South Jersey.

[B.]

B, I meant to say "Bosses consulting their closest men is not a "Genovese thing"".

Do we know of other examples where a boss and other leaders voted in front of another family's "acting boss" (Fratianno was disingenuous about his actual role) on a murder or other important decision? The guys supposedly involved in the vote weren't necessarily there because they were close to Tieri, but were powerful leaders in other parts of the city. I know the Fratianno thing is just one example so it doesn't necessarily mean that much, but there is indication that Tieri did more than simply consult men he trusted in the family.

I also wonder about Tieri's removal from power. My understanding from what you've shared before is that he was removed from power by the other Genovese leaders. Or was the Commission involved? If it was more of an internal situation, that indicates that other figures within the family had the power to come together and remove the boss (or a top leader) from his position.

I'm happy to back to the Philly/Genovese connection, though, and always appreciate your insight. Maybe later today or tomorrow I will post more about what I know of the the Philly/Genovese and Philly/NY connections.

[Lupara]

I think the Genoveses have been a lot more democratic than Turkey is right now.

[HairyKnuckles]

While looking for the part to show B, i found these two snippets. If I put my mind to it, I can find probably another 50 snippets like these that says the same: Tieri official boss. But I get the feeling Wiseguy won´t be satisfied if I should find 500 snippets. So why bother?





B, I´m sure I have a part where a CI tells about Tieri´s demotion and specifically say "Tieri was taken down". However, this is the only part I can find on his demotion right now. Maybe I can take a closer look and try to find that part some other time when I have the time for it. Until then, I hope this part is to your satisfaction:

[brianwellbrock]

I'm not sure why the feds would need to coach Cafaro on anything, including instructing him to say Tieri was the underboss/acting boss under Lombardo. Not only would they have no purpose for doing that but, if anything, his information could have jeopardized Tieri's conviction as the boss. Likewise, while they were doing all this coaching, why didn't they tell Cafaro to keep his mouth shut about Salerno not being the real boss since he had not long before been convicted as such in the Commission case?

They needed Cafaro to say that Salerno was a front boss. That way they saved themselves from embarrassment. And in the long run, without Cafaro´s coached testimony, it would have jeopardized the Salerno conviction. That way the charges against Salerno were legit because as front boss, the feds figured, Salerno was part of the Genovese Family´s decision process. It would have been harder to prove his involvment and convict him for crimes that concerned the Genovese Family if Salerno was charged as an underling. They settled on front boss because they started to target the real boss, Gigante.

Cafaro said Tieri was front boss. That´s the exact term he used. He didn´t say underboss/acting boss but used the specific term "front boss". According to him, the Genoveses had used front bosses for a long time (a ridiculous claim if you ask me because who, in his fully sane mind would want to be a front boss???). But his false claim gave weight and that´s what counted.

Anyway, this thread is about the Genovese Family leadership´s control of the Philly Family. Perhaps we can discuss the Genovese Family leadership some other time, in some other thread.

That is an interrsting theory HK. So than what was Salernos actual role in the family in the 80's according to you? Underboss?

So according to you, Cafaro flips in September 8y right before Salerno goes on trial and tells the government that Chin is indeed the boss and Salerno is only underboss or acting boss? And they go to cover their tracks?

Im not being sarcastic at all its not an outlandish theory and with all respect to PB, but how would he know Lombardo was boss in the 70's when the other Genovese wiseguys were being fooled. Im not saying I believe it one way or the other but I know that theyre a lot of myths thay have been dispelled on here. Could you just go a little deeper into your theory?

[HairyKnuckles]

I'm not sure why the feds would need to coach Cafaro on anything, including instructing him to say Tieri was the underboss/acting boss under Lombardo. Not only would they have no purpose for doing that but, if anything, his information could have jeopardized Tieri's conviction as the boss. Likewise, while they were doing all this coaching, why didn't they tell Cafaro to keep his mouth shut about Salerno not being the real boss since he had not long before been convicted as such in the Commission case?

They needed Cafaro to say that Salerno was a front boss. That way they saved themselves from embarrassment. And in the long run, without Cafaro´s coached testimony, it would have jeopardized the Salerno conviction. That way the charges against Salerno were legit because as front boss, the feds figured, Salerno was part of the Genovese Family´s decision process. It would have been harder to prove his involvment and convict him for crimes that concerned the Genovese Family if Salerno was charged as an underling. They settled on front boss because they started to target the real boss, Gigante.

Cafaro said Tieri was front boss. That´s the exact term he used. He didn´t say underboss/acting boss but used the specific term "front boss". According to him, the Genoveses had used front bosses for a long time (a ridiculous claim if you ask me because who, in his fully sane mind would want to be a front boss???). But his false claim gave weight and that´s what counted.

Anyway, this thread is about the Genovese Family leadership´s control of the Philly Family. Perhaps we can discuss the Genovese Family leadership some other time, in some other thread.

That is an interrsting theory HK. So than what was Salernos actual role in the family in the 80's according to you? Underboss?

So according to you, Cafaro flips in September 8y right before Salerno goes on trial and tells the government that Chin is indeed the boss and Salerno is only underboss or acting boss? And they go to cover their tracks?

Im not being sarcastic at all its not an outlandish theory and with all respect to PB, but how would he know Lombardo was boss in the 70's when the other Genovese wiseguys were being fooled. Im not saying I believe it one way or the other but I know that theyre a lot of myths thay have been dispelled on here. Could you just go a little deeper into your theory?

In my opinion, and Wiseguy also agrees with this, Salerno was acting boss for Gigante, standing in for him at times. For example during Commission meetings, during initiation ceremonies, meetings with other Families etc. That´s the duties of an underboss which is nothing new. A boss can use his underboss as a stand in whenever he feels like it. So I believe Salerno was Gigante´s underboss but by time played a reduced role due to age and possibly illness (he had suffered a stroke in 1981). That´s when Sammy Santoro, who was listed as a captain in September of 1983, stepped in and assumed Salerno´s role on acting basis. Salerno may have very well been semi retired (or possibly fully retired) by the time Santoro stepped up.

I don´t know how I could get a little deeper into my theory than stated above. But the feds manipulated the Cafaro situation to make up with their fails. Cafaro is definitely not trustworthy. For example, he states Ferro was consigliere when there are absolutely no basis for that claim. Why he lied is a mistery. Why he was coached and manipulated to say what he said is explained above. That´s my theory, somebody else may have another theory but he did lie when he gave testimony.

[B.]

Thanks for the FBI snippets. The bit about Tieri's loss of stature doesn't make it clear whether the other Genovese leaders deposed him or if it came originally via the Commission (though no doubt the Commission would have had to reinforce the decision either way). It says Genovese members were instructed to avoid Tieri, but this could have been an instruction from other Genovese leaders to the rank and file, not necessarily an order from the Commission (though again they would have reinforced it even if it didn't originally come from them).

Also agreed about the underboss/acting boss designation for Salerno. Traditionally the underboss would do exactly the sorts of duties that Salerno has been associated with and step in as the boss when required. If you look at some of the underbosses of the older bosses like Bonanno, Profaci, Gagliano, and Ida of Philly, their underbosses could have easily been seen as "front" or "street" bosses.

When the national mafia network was thriving, the bosses were engrossed in top level political matters and were more concerned with meeting with other bosses and handling the bigger picture, plus some of them traveled quite a bit, leaving their underbosses to manage their families as a sort of "street boss". Gigante was from a later generation and was motivated more by law enforcement concerns and secrecy in general, but I still don't think the situation is too different from those old bosses.

[toto]

http://gangstersinc.ning.com/m/blogpost ... st%3A68989

George Barone, another Genovese mobster-turned-informant, later gave authorities some background on the relationship between father and son Cafaro and Barney Bellomo and the Genovese family mob. Barone said that Bellomo told him that “Fish Cafaro did not fully cooperate with the FBI” and withheld much information about the Genovese family “because of an agreement he made with Bellomo.” In return, Barone said, “Bellomo protected his son Tommy from retaliation” for his father’s sins.

I couldn't verify if George Barone really said it. But if its true it means Cafaro was probably lying.