General Mob Questions

[Camo]

The opinion i've came to over the years is none of these guys or Pablo Escobar or El Chapo or whoever were special at crime they were just around corruptible systems to varying degrees, if it wasn't them it would've been someone else.

Yah, and I've always thought that the idea that people like Luciano and Torrio were great industrialists in the vein of Carnegie or Rockefeller but they were just doing it as criminals was kind of dumb.

I don't know about Carnegie but Rockefeller was a genius and there was little keeping them from being Rockefeller if they were as capable. He came from an incredibly unstable family situation, experienced immense poverty, took a very minor job, worked his way up, realized the potential of Oil and cornered the market. He was way before Torrio and Luciano but there's plenty of similar examples of people born in the 1880s and 1890s. Their Governor Al Smith came from fuck all in the same area of NYC and built himself into a legitimate force.

[Reginald_III]

Was Carmine Galante ever made Consigliere or did he remain Caporegime until he was promoted to acting boss later on? I ask because the claim that he was made Consigliere is pretty out there but yet this post doesn't list him as Consigliere viewtopic.php?t=9307

The Gay Talese book refers to Galante as consigliere and even though the book involved collaboration with Bill Bonanno I don't believe that info came from Bill. In one of his own books I believe Bill referred to Galante as a "group leader" (the Bonannos' translation of capodecina in their books). Personally I suspect Galante was the "senior / top captain" in the 1950s -- a source in the early 1970s said Marangello had the role of "senior captain" who was assisting the admin in running the Family and later Lefty Ruggiero told Pistone that Napolitano was the "top captain", which was a designated role helping direct the Family. Another source said Galante had once been on a panel in the late 1950s. Because this "top captain" role seems to have been ongoing in the 1970s and early 80s, I can see it going back further.

So between the above info and what we know of Galante's activities in the 1950s, I think he was something like a "street boss", which is not an official rank, but it would explain Galante's obvious importance at the time and some of the confusion over him being an underboss, consigliere, etc. Keep in mind too his decina was massive and included members in basically every NYC borough, New Jersey, Upstate NY, and Canada. Joe Bonanno also lived much of the year in Arizona and Garofalo and Tartamella were in the process of retiring so the Family delegated a lot of authority to top underlings like John Morale, John Bonventre, and Carmine Galante.

I have an FBI report from 1974, shortly before Galante's release from prison, where he was identified as a capodecina which is interesting as his crew was officially taken over by other captains and also split multiple ways in the years after he went to prison. If true, it would indicate he was promoted to captain again before his release, maybe to pacify him. One thing I've never been totally clear on is whether Rastelli named him acting boss, whether he was voted into the position (the Bonannos voted on the new acting boss in 1981), or just assumed the role and everyone was forced to accept it. He is identified as the acting boss in reports from the mid-1970s and by the end of the decade you start to see sources call him the official boss which makes sense as Massino said he was told by Galante at his 1977 induction that Rastelli had been boss until the previous week but Galante was now the official boss. This wasn't recognized by the Rastelli faction nor the Commission, so Galante was not the official boss, but we know from Ruggiero's conversations with Pistone, Frank Coppa, etc. that certain factions of the Family saw him as the boss.

Sorry for the late response, 1960s~1970s Bonnano family has always been interesting to me. You're right though, Galante was a very influential member of the Bonnano family and that's why they tended to confuse him for underboss/consig,proof of this is just how many members were demoted after his assassination like Marangello, Pollastrino, Zaffarano, Sabella etc who were either under his crew at one time or connected to him. This is honestly my first timhe term top captain.I've just finished rereading DB a few weeks ago and don't get why Lefty mentioned the role of top captain to help direct the family because wasn't there an acting boss, ruling panel and Consigliere to do exactly that? Why is something like a top captain needed to help run the family then? I do want to read more on it if possible. From my understanding Galante was given acting boss position in 1976 after Rastelli went to prison and proclaimed himself boss around mid 1977 according to Joe Massino. Also that FBI report you mentioned if you're able to share it kindly do I would love to read it.

[Reginald_III]

Was Carmine Galante ever made Consigliere or did he remain Caporegime until he was promoted to acting boss later on? I ask because the claim that he was made Consigliere is pretty out there but yet this post doesn't list him as Consigliere viewtopic.php?t=9307

The Gay Talese book refers to Galante as consigliere and even though the book involved collaboration with Bill Bonanno I don't believe that info came from Bill. In one of his own books I believe Bill referred to Galante as a "group leader" (the Bonannos' translation of capodecina in their books). Personally I suspect Galante was the "senior / top captain" in the 1950s -- a source in the early 1970s said Marangello had the role of "senior captain" who was assisting the admin in running the Family and later Lefty Ruggiero told Pistone that Napolitano was the "top captain", which was a designated role helping direct the Family. Another source said Galante had once been on a panel in the late 1950s. Because this "top captain" role seems to have been ongoing in the 1970s and early 80s, I can see it going back further.

So between the above info and what we know of Galante's activities in the 1950s, I think he was something like a "street boss", which is not an official rank, but it would explain Galante's obvious importance at the time and some of the confusion over him being an underboss, consigliere, etc. Keep in mind too his decina was massive and included members in basically every NYC borough, New Jersey, Upstate NY, and Canada. Joe Bonanno also lived much of the year in Arizona and Garofalo and Tartamella were in the process of retiring so the Family delegated a lot of authority to top underlings like John Morale, John Bonventre, and Carmine Galante.

I have an FBI report from 1974, shortly before Galante's release from prison, where he was identified as a capodecina which is interesting as his crew was officially taken over by other captains and also split multiple ways in the years after he went to prison. If true, it would indicate he was promoted to captain again before his release, maybe to pacify him. One thing I've never been totally clear on is whether Rastelli named him acting boss, whether he was voted into the position (the Bonannos voted on the new acting boss in 1981), or just assumed the role and everyone was forced to accept it. He is identified as the acting boss in reports from the mid-1970s and by the end of the decade you start to see sources call him the official boss which makes sense as Massino said he was told by Galante at his 1977 induction that Rastelli had been boss until the previous week but Galante was now the official boss. This wasn't recognized by the Rastelli faction nor the Commission, so Galante was not the official boss, but we know from Ruggiero's conversations with Pistone, Frank Coppa, etc. that certain factions of the Family saw him as the boss.

Sorry for the late response, 1960s~1970s Bonnano family has always been interesting to me. You're right though, Galante was a very influential member of the Bonnano family and that's why they tended to confuse him for underboss/consig,proof of this is just how many members were demoted after his assassination like Marangello, Pollastrino, Zaffarano, Sabella etc who were either under his crew at one time or connected to him. This is honestly my first timhe term top captain.I've just finished rereading DB a few weeks ago and don't get why Lefty mentioned the role of top captain to help direct the family because wasn't there an acting boss, ruling panel and Consigliere to do exactly that? Why is something like a top captain needed to help run the family then? I do want to read more on it if possible. From my understanding Galante was given acting boss position in 1976 after Rastelli went to prison and proclaimed himself boss around mid 1977 according to Joe Massino. Also that FBI report you mentioned if you're able to share it kindly do I would love to read it.

first time hearing*

[Camo]

I'm rereading Joe Bonanno and was wondering does any other source speak of the two supposed Lucchese members who told Frank Costello that Lucchese was planning on killing Anastasia? I doubt it asking just in case as if that did happen i wonder who they were.

[FrankWhiteIs9P]

Is there a list of hits Lefty was supposed to have been involved with?

[Wiseguy]

Anyone know what crew Joseph Cammarano Sr. originally came from?

[Harrism]

Has anyone got a good source for old (road) maps of Sicily?

[chin_gigante]

Is putting members on the shelf a recent phenom?

Was this ever done in the 30's/40's/50's? The 70's?
I know the shelving has replaced clipping, but Im wondering if it was still a thing back in the day as an intermediary step before clipping or an alternate for a popular member.

I guess I could ask the same as chasing. Were members ever chased back in the day?

Or are these actions only recent on the scene as hitting guys draws too much heat?

It seems like it has always existed for the most part, not sure what the earliest known example would be though.

Joseph Aiello, a Chicago and later Madison member was shelved in the early 1940s before transferring families. I suspect Salvatore D'Anna in Colorado was also shelved prior to his murder in 1930. A bunch of Milwaukee members were on the shelf in the 1970s as well.

Chased seems to be more for associates, not for members. Confusion there is from people using the terms interchangeably - e.g., Anthony Arillotta says Al Bruno "shelved" him for dealing drugs but he was a non-member at the time so he would have actually been chased for a period.

This is also discussed in the Sangiorgi report. The same language isn't used obviously, but it's clearly the same process. Sangiorgi wrote that members who broke the rules were 'secretly judged and condemned, according to the circumstances, either to expulsion from the society, but more often to death.'

So this was happening at least as early as the late 1800s.

[B.]

There are also more vague references that don't use the term "shelved" but refer to the same process. For example when someone is said to have been "thrown out" they are referring to shelving given you can't actually lose membership completely.

It's clear that Ignazio Lupo, Giuseppe Morello, and the Terranovas were shelved for a time in the early 1920s in addition to being condemned to death. When it was reported that Lupo was brought back into the Fratellanza in 1923 they were saying he was off the shelf and again recognized as a member.

[Regan-Beckett]

Not sure whether this has been asked, so apologies if it has - but I've wondered for ages what would have happened to Brasco's/Pistone's position as a Soldier if he had of been made and later outted as FBI - would he be able to be replaced numbers wise (his induction voided) or would it be a case of tough luck, a spots been used? I'm sure (hope) you know what I mean

Regan

[B.]

Not sure whether this has been asked, so apologies if it has - but I've wondered for ages what would have happened to Brasco's/Pistone's position as a Soldier if he had of been made and later outted as FBI - would he be able to be replaced numbers wise (his induction voided) or would it be a case of tough luck, a spots been used? I'm sure (hope) you know what I mean

Regan

It's never happened so no idea. CWs are still members until they die and take up a cap slot but we don't have evidence they've ever been included on proposed member lists as a deceased member being replaced -- I imagine it'd be too disgraceful to do so and it would be shameful for the new member taking the CW's spot. I recall on the Ravenite tapes that Gotti, Gravano, and LoCascio talked about the symbolic importance of who you're replacing when you get made.

It would be so disastrous I doubt normal rules would apply anyway if a UCA was inducted but since we have no examples we can't say.

[Regan-Beckett]

Yeah, no examples so dunno - that's why I've always wondered....