General Chicago Outfit Info Dumping Ground

[B.]

Things could be worse. Other Families, such as the STL outfit, had no member CIs that we are aware of. Springfield, IL, the Feds basically just had some vague wiretaps and a smattering of accounts from CIs from other cities to go on.

Tony, correct be if I’m wrong on this but wasnt St Louis boss John Vitale a CI while he was boss? Maybe that was just a rumor and it was never verified.

A journalist did publish that Vitale was a CI in the years immediately leading up to his death and said he gave info on Paul Leisure but it's not clear what the full substance was or if he ever detailed any LCN matters:

https://www.upi.com/Archives/1984/08/30 ... 462686400/

St. Louis was already withering in the 1960s so he could have provided great historic info (if he fully cooperated) but there would have been limited info to report on the local LCN even if he was cooperating 1980-82 which are the years he's said to have been a CI.

[Coloboy]

Regarding the consigliere position, Leonardo Messina (high-ranking member of the San Cataldo Family) said the consigliere in Sicily was "the man who controls the head." He used the word "testa", literal for "head", presumably referring to the capofamiglia/boss, a translation of "capo" also being "head". Other pentiti have given comparable descriptions of the consigliere / consiglieri role in the Sicilian mafia.

"The man who controls the head" seems to be a fair description of Chicago's consiglieri as well, particularly the consiglio chairman. Descriptions of this relationship misinterpret this role in Chicago as "the top boss" or a sort of "boss's boss" but that's not accurate either. The consigliere's duty first and foremost is to make sure the organization is being run fairly and that includes making sure the boss is not abusing his power. Messina in Sicily also said the San Cataldo consigliere made sure the boss and capidecine were not collecting more money from members than they should be taking. Descriptions of Ricca and Accardo in the 1960s and early 70s fit this, as sources have said they were primarily concerned with peace, mediation, and making sure the org was operating fairly.

One of the sources Snakes posted from that era i believe said Accardo and Ricca were millionaires many times over and were only concerned with their own affairs.

Actually it was "only concerned with keeping their wealth and status" - viewtopic.php?p=178667&hilit=millionaires#p178667

It also describes them as letting others (Giancana and Battaglia) run the family while only offering consultation and advice but maybe the source had a limited view of the situation.

Have you read many of the bug transcripts between Accardo, Giancana, Ricca, and others on Mary Ferrell? They are great to review. Accardo and Ricca were very much involved in the details of running the family in that period. Conversations about senators, the commission, various rackets, etc. I would agree however, that they didn't want to get involved in the day to day stuff, both to avoid law enforcement scrutiny and to not have the hassle.

Opinions vary, but whatever their organizational "roles" were, I don't know how anyone comes out of reading those transcripts not thinking that Accardo, at the very least, was heavily influencing, or in some instances outright directing, certain outcomes for the Outfit during Giancana's time as boss.

Additonally, there is a CI report from 1972 following Ricca's death, of a meeting where Accardo states that "he will remain boss of organized crime", and that he will increasingly rely on Aiuppa and Gus Alex for support. This is obviously before Aiuppa really stepped up and learned the ropes, but I would say the involvement was a bit beyond simply looking after his own interests. (not that that wasn't a priority for him, as it is all criminals).

[PolackTony]

Additonally, there is a CI report from 1972 following Ricca's death, of a meeting where Accardo states that "he will remain boss of organized crime", and that he will increasingly rely on Aiuppa and Gus Alex for support. This is obviously before Aiuppa really stepped up and learned the ropes, but I would say the involvement was a bit beyond simply looking after his own interests. (not that that wasn't a priority for him, as it is all criminals).

Accardo was acting boss during that period. He and Ricca, prior to his death, had to take on that responsibility after Giancana fled the country and was deposed and Battaglia jailed not long after. This was meant to be an interim situation as a reaction to a crisis in leadership, but wound up becoming a more protracted state of affairs as other potential candidates for boss such as Cerone and Alderisio were themselves imprisoned. Accardo was doing a lot more during that period than solely looking after his own interest — he was acting as the head of the Family until a new boss could finally be appointed. This goes back also to the point that someone raised earlier in this thread about the source who claimed that Accardo had stated that Ricca would not be “replaced” after his death; it’s pretty clear, in context, that this meant that no one else would be serving as co-acting boss with Accardo (it wouldn’t make sense to do that anyway, as, again, this was intended to be an interim and temporary state of affairs). Aiuppa was dealing with some serious health issues in the early 70s also, which prevented him from being appointed as official boss for a few years, hence Accardo remaining in an acting capacity in ‘72.

[PolackTony]

Things could be worse. Other Families, such as the STL outfit, had no member CIs that we are aware of. Springfield, IL, the Feds basically just had some vague wiretaps and a smattering of accounts from CIs from other cities to go on.

Tony, correct be if I’m wrong on this but wasnt St Louis boss John Vitale a CI while he was boss? Maybe that was just a rumor and it was never verified.

A journalist did publish that Vitale was a CI in the years immediately leading up to his death and said he gave info on Paul Leisure but it's not clear what the full substance was or if he ever detailed any LCN matters:

https://www.upi.com/Archives/1984/08/30 ... 462686400/

St. Louis was already withering in the 1960s so he could have provided great historic info (if he fully cooperated) but there would have been limited info to report on the local LCN even if he was cooperating 1980-82 which are the years he's said to have been a CI.

To be clear, when I said above that STL didn’t have any member CI’s that we know of, I meant during the period of intensive FBI intelligence collecting on LCN in the 60s-70s that inform most of the reports that we have access to. All good points here about Vitale though.

[Patrickgold]

Additonally, there is a CI report from 1972 following Ricca's death, of a meeting where Accardo states that "he will remain boss of organized crime", and that he will increasingly rely on Aiuppa and Gus Alex for support. This is obviously before Aiuppa really stepped up and learned the ropes, but I would say the involvement was a bit beyond simply looking after his own interests. (not that that wasn't a priority for him, as it is all criminals).

Accardo was acting boss during that period. He and Ricca, prior to his death, had to take on that responsibility after Giancana fled the country and was deposed and Battaglia jailed not long after. This was meant to be an interim situation as a reaction to a crisis in leadership, but wound up becoming a more protracted state of affairs as other potential candidates for boss such as Cerone and Alderisio were themselves imprisoned. Accardo was doing a lot more during that period than solely looking after his own interest — he was acting as the head of the Family until a new boss could finally be appointed. This goes back also to the point that someone raised earlier in this thread about the source who claimed that Accardo had stated that Ricca would not be “replaced” after his death; it’s pretty clear, in context, that this meant that no one else would be serving as co-acting boss with Accardo (it wouldn’t make sense to do that anyway, as, again, this was intended to be an interim and temporary state of affairs). Aiuppa was dealing with some serious health issues in the early 70s also, which prevented him from being appointed as official boss for a few years, hence Accardo remaining in an acting capacity in ‘72.

What I find interesting about Ricca is that he basically testified against Cerone in 1972. Now I know he was probably given permission bc he was on his death bed and they granted him
Immunity but for any hard core gangsters, this is unacceptable. He obviously didn’t want to die in jail but I still find it surprising that he did. Were there any wiretaps or CIs that commented on this?

[VC2]

good points on ricca and accardo. also refreshing that a conversation doesnt go full off rails because of a minor disagreement, as opposed to many other forums. i also didnt intend to interrupt convo with post about chart. i am still getting used to BH and its rhythm and best practice. if said chart should go to mafia charts board i can do that. it was more to show a thought on possible outfit admin setup/council etc.

have a good day all.

[Snakes]

good points on ricca and accardo. also refreshing that a conversation doesnt go full off rails because of a minor disagreement, as opposed to many other forums. i also didnt intend to interrupt convo with post about chart. i am still getting used to BH and its rhythm and best practice. if said chart should go to mafia charts board i can do that. it was more to show a thought on possible outfit admin setup/council etc.

have a good day all.

No, it's fine to bring it up here, but I think it got lost in the other discussion that was going on. You can also post it in the chart section and then link to it in this thread if you want to generate some discussion.

[Cosmik_Debris]

Additonally, there is a CI report from 1972 following Ricca's death, of a meeting where Accardo states that "he will remain boss of organized crime", and that he will increasingly rely on Aiuppa and Gus Alex for support. This is obviously before Aiuppa really stepped up and learned the ropes, but I would say the involvement was a bit beyond simply looking after his own interests. (not that that wasn't a priority for him, as it is all criminals).

Accardo was acting boss during that period. He and Ricca, prior to his death, had to take on that responsibility after Giancana fled the country and was deposed and Battaglia jailed not long after. This was meant to be an interim situation as a reaction to a crisis in leadership, but wound up becoming a more protracted state of affairs as other potential candidates for boss such as Cerone and Alderisio were themselves imprisoned. Accardo was doing a lot more during that period than solely looking after his own interest — he was acting as the head of the Family until a new boss could finally be appointed. This goes back also to the point that someone raised earlier in this thread about the source who claimed that Accardo had stated that Ricca would not be “replaced” after his death; it’s pretty clear, in context, that this meant that no one else would be serving as co-acting boss with Accardo (it wouldn’t make sense to do that anyway, as, again, this was intended to be an interim and temporary state of affairs). Aiuppa was dealing with some serious health issues in the early 70s also, which prevented him from being appointed as official boss for a few years, hence Accardo remaining in an acting capacity in ‘72.

What I find interesting about Ricca is that he basically testified against Cerone in 1972. Now I know he was probably given permission bc he was on his death bed and they granted him
Immunity but for any hard core gangsters, this is unacceptable. He obviously didn’t want to die in jail but I still find it surprising that he did. Were there any wiretaps or CIs that commented on this?

Ricca testified against Cerone in 1970 and then died in 1972. They had to bring him in on a stretcher and he was given immunity, so I assume they realized if he refused, he was probably going to die in jail. He made it two more years, but it would've been close.

I don't think I've ever read anything about what Ricca actually testified to. Any information on the substance of his testimony or a transcript?

[NorthBuffalo]

Additonally, there is a CI report from 1972 following Ricca's death, of a meeting where Accardo states that "he will remain boss of organized crime", and that he will increasingly rely on Aiuppa and Gus Alex for support. This is obviously before Aiuppa really stepped up and learned the ropes, but I would say the involvement was a bit beyond simply looking after his own interests. (not that that wasn't a priority for him, as it is all criminals).

Accardo was acting boss during that period. He and Ricca, prior to his death, had to take on that responsibility after Giancana fled the country and was deposed and Battaglia jailed not long after. This was meant to be an interim situation as a reaction to a crisis in leadership, but wound up becoming a more protracted state of affairs as other potential candidates for boss such as Cerone and Alderisio were themselves imprisoned. Accardo was doing a lot more during that period than solely looking after his own interest — he was acting as the head of the Family until a new boss could finally be appointed. This goes back also to the point that someone raised earlier in this thread about the source who claimed that Accardo had stated that Ricca would not be “replaced” after his death; it’s pretty clear, in context, that this meant that no one else would be serving as co-acting boss with Accardo (it wouldn’t make sense to do that anyway, as, again, this was intended to be an interim and temporary state of affairs). Aiuppa was dealing with some serious health issues in the early 70s also, which prevented him from being appointed as official boss for a few years, hence Accardo remaining in an acting capacity in ‘72.

What I find interesting about Ricca is that he basically testified against Cerone in 1972. Now I know he was probably given permission bc he was on his death bed and they granted him
Immunity but for any hard core gangsters, this is unacceptable. He obviously didn’t want to die in jail but I still find it surprising that he did. Were there any wiretaps or CIs that commented on this?

Ricca testified against Cerone in 1970 and then died in 1972. They had to bring him in on a stretcher and he was given immunity, so I assume they realized if he refused, he was probably going to die in jail. He made it two more years, but it would've been close.

I don't think I've ever read anything about what Ricca actually testified to. Any information on the substance of his testimony or a transcript?

Agreed - is there any evidence Ricca actually gave testimony instead of just playing the traditional games in court? These guys were all quite experienced in court rooms at this time and their legal rights (I think thats what made Accardo/Ricca so successful - they used crack attorneys) - I just wonder if this is a case where it wasn't a 'rat move' necessarily...

[VC2]

thanks snakes, i may do that at some point still much work to be done. sometimes i find in some discussions a visual aid helps explain better than many back and fourths about terminology, structure etc.

[Snakes]

Additonally, there is a CI report from 1972 following Ricca's death, of a meeting where Accardo states that "he will remain boss of organized crime", and that he will increasingly rely on Aiuppa and Gus Alex for support. This is obviously before Aiuppa really stepped up and learned the ropes, but I would say the involvement was a bit beyond simply looking after his own interests. (not that that wasn't a priority for him, as it is all criminals).

Accardo was acting boss during that period. He and Ricca, prior to his death, had to take on that responsibility after Giancana fled the country and was deposed and Battaglia jailed not long after. This was meant to be an interim situation as a reaction to a crisis in leadership, but wound up becoming a more protracted state of affairs as other potential candidates for boss such as Cerone and Alderisio were themselves imprisoned. Accardo was doing a lot more during that period than solely looking after his own interest — he was acting as the head of the Family until a new boss could finally be appointed. This goes back also to the point that someone raised earlier in this thread about the source who claimed that Accardo had stated that Ricca would not be “replaced” after his death; it’s pretty clear, in context, that this meant that no one else would be serving as co-acting boss with Accardo (it wouldn’t make sense to do that anyway, as, again, this was intended to be an interim and temporary state of affairs). Aiuppa was dealing with some serious health issues in the early 70s also, which prevented him from being appointed as official boss for a few years, hence Accardo remaining in an acting capacity in ‘72.

What I find interesting about Ricca is that he basically testified against Cerone in 1972. Now I know he was probably given permission bc he was on his death bed and they granted him
Immunity but for any hard core gangsters, this is unacceptable. He obviously didn’t want to die in jail but I still find it surprising that he did. Were there any wiretaps or CIs that commented on this?

Ricca testified against Cerone in 1970 and then died in 1972. They had to bring him in on a stretcher and he was given immunity, so I assume they realized if he refused, he was probably going to die in jail. He made it two more years, but it would've been close.

I don't think I've ever read anything about what Ricca actually testified to. Any information on the substance of his testimony or a transcript?

Agreed - is there any evidence Ricca actually gave testimony instead of just playing the traditional games in court? These guys were all quite experienced in court rooms at this time and their legal rights (I think thats what made Accardo/Ricca so successful - they used crack attorneys) - I just wonder if this is a case where it wasn't a 'rat move' necessarily...

He did testify. The feds knew he had met with Cerone and he was facing contempt charges and possible deportation. He essentially corroborated what Louis Bombacino said on the stand. I don't know if that alone would have been enough to sink Cerone, but Cerone was convicted and sentenced to prison. Either way, Ricca was dead before Cerone got out and Bombacino would be killed shortly after Cerone's release from prison.

[NorthBuffalo]

Additonally, there is a CI report from 1972 following Ricca's death, of a meeting where Accardo states that "he will remain boss of organized crime", and that he will increasingly rely on Aiuppa and Gus Alex for support. This is obviously before Aiuppa really stepped up and learned the ropes, but I would say the involvement was a bit beyond simply looking after his own interests. (not that that wasn't a priority for him, as it is all criminals).

Accardo was acting boss during that period. He and Ricca, prior to his death, had to take on that responsibility after Giancana fled the country and was deposed and Battaglia jailed not long after. This was meant to be an interim situation as a reaction to a crisis in leadership, but wound up becoming a more protracted state of affairs as other potential candidates for boss such as Cerone and Alderisio were themselves imprisoned. Accardo was doing a lot more during that period than solely looking after his own interest — he was acting as the head of the Family until a new boss could finally be appointed. This goes back also to the point that someone raised earlier in this thread about the source who claimed that Accardo had stated that Ricca would not be “replaced” after his death; it’s pretty clear, in context, that this meant that no one else would be serving as co-acting boss with Accardo (it wouldn’t make sense to do that anyway, as, again, this was intended to be an interim and temporary state of affairs). Aiuppa was dealing with some serious health issues in the early 70s also, which prevented him from being appointed as official boss for a few years, hence Accardo remaining in an acting capacity in ‘72.

What I find interesting about Ricca is that he basically testified against Cerone in 1972. Now I know he was probably given permission bc he was on his death bed and they granted him
Immunity but for any hard core gangsters, this is unacceptable. He obviously didn’t want to die in jail but I still find it surprising that he did. Were there any wiretaps or CIs that commented on this?

Ricca testified against Cerone in 1970 and then died in 1972. They had to bring him in on a stretcher and he was given immunity, so I assume they realized if he refused, he was probably going to die in jail. He made it two more years, but it would've been close.

I don't think I've ever read anything about what Ricca actually testified to. Any information on the substance of his testimony or a transcript?

Agreed - is there any evidence Ricca actually gave testimony instead of just playing the traditional games in court? These guys were all quite experienced in court rooms at this time and their legal rights (I think thats what made Accardo/Ricca so successful - they used crack attorneys) - I just wonder if this is a case where it wasn't a 'rat move' necessarily...

He did testify. The feds knew he had met with Cerone and he was facing contempt charges and possible deportation. He essentially corroborated what Louis Bombacino said on the stand. I don't know if that alone would have been enough to sink Cerone, but Cerone was convicted and sentenced to prison. Either way, Ricca was dead before Cerone got out and Bombacino would be killed shortly after Cerone's release from prison.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Cerone brought Bombacino into the fold in the first place, correct? I wonder if that was a 'tough shit' scenario for Cerone who was told by Accardo and others to 'blame yourself and let the old man die at home...' type scenario. In my view, the vow of Omerta is somewhat flexible in Chicago considering all we've learned.

[Cosmik_Debris]

This has a nice summary of the Louis Bombacino situation.

https://mafiahistory.us/rattrap/infbombacino.html

[NorthBuffalo]

This has a nice summary of the Louis Bombacino situation.

https://mafiahistory.us/rattrap/infbombacino.html

Ed Valin is excellent. Toronto guy.

[B.]

Ed is the absolute man.