General Chicago Outfit Info Dumping Ground

[Coloboy]

I’d be willing to buy Accardo did it. As they say, “means and motive”. They needed someone who giancana trusted to let into the house, and someone he wouldn’t suspect. Real guinea shit.

I never saw those FBI files where Nick said that about Accardo to heavy work indicating he assisted in the Giancana murder so that puts a different perspective on it for me. Jr still didn’t say anything when he was debriefed by the FBI so I believe Kurt when he says he told Jr that.

It makes sense that a meeting was called between Giancana and Accardo to figure out Giancana’s future in the Outfit. Only Accardo had the authority to decide his future since Giancana was once a boss. He sneaks into his house after the phone call is made by someone to call off Chicago police doing surveillance. Blasi was there to put Giancana at ease that nothing would happen to him. Giancana would never suspect Blasi to betray him. Little did he know was that Blasi had betrayed the entire Outfit by being a CI. Who knows who fired the bullet that kill Giancana but it was one of them. Only one caliber was found so unless they handed the gun off to each other to shoot him after the original shot, then there was only one shooter. Very sloppy how the gun was thrown into a backyard on the way back to Accardo’s house. I can’t see Accardo throwing it out his window on the way home. And I don’t see a 66 year old Accardo walking back to his house from Oak Park. Not that far but still a little walk. So that is an unanswered question about the gun being found where it was. Maybe they got spooked or saw a patrol car and threw the gun.

Yeah, and for the record, I’m not saying I’m sold on the idea, just that I’d be willing to entertain it based on the available evidence. There would have been a lot of reasons for Giancana to be meeting with Accardo at that time, including the upcoming Senate hearings he was about to be exposed to. Gianacana had been around a long time, and he certainly must’ve known he was in a bit of danger, or at least he would have been keeping his guard up at that time. A 66-year-old Accardo would be one of the least risky ways to get in front of him.

If he did it, I would agree that there was likely an accomplice, either to drive home or to help with the actual killing

[PolackTony]

Wow. Ciotti murdered his own wife on orders from the family. That is wild. Someone needs to research that death

We already have, it’s been discussed a couple of times here over the years (if you want to see those posts, run a search for Ciotti and his wife, Daryle [that's the correct spelling] Clark Ciotti). What's new here is that Nick C was told that this was a murder by Fecarotta.

As B posted about in this thread previously, after Daryle was found dead in 1974 of an apparent suicide from alcohol poisoning in the Ciotti's garage, her mother, Patricia Clark, became an FBI CI (Patricia also claimed that she herself had in the past been romantically involved with Giancana). Ciotti was known to have been violently abusive to Daryle. After the Seifert murder, Louie Eboli -- who was an in-law of Ciotti -- had told Ciotti to stash a getaway vehicle used in a hit that Ciotti and Eboli had both allegedly been involved with in his garage and the vehicle was discovered by Daryle. Daryle told her mother that Ciotti had become concerned that Daryle was going to run her mouth off to someone about the vehicle after she got drunk and allegedly talked too candidly about Ciotti to Joey DeVita, who of course went and told Eboli about the things that Daryle was saying. After this incident, Ciotti beat Daryle so badly that one of her eyes popped out. Apparently this wasn't enough to satisfy him, as a month later she was dead.

Nick C's account here in the excerpt from his 302 regarding what Fecarotta told him about the Seifert hit getaway vehicle car matches what Patricia Clark told the Feds that Daryle had said about the "hot" vehicle stashed in the Ciottis' garage: it had been used in the Seifert hit (she described it as a hit on a "man and his wife" at a "plastics plant", obviously Seifert's wife hadn't herself been harmed there but Patricia Clark wasn't herself party to these events), and an off-duty police officer had been injured in the incident also, which would align with Fecarotta's story about a police chase that involved a collision. Based on what Daryle told her mother, I'd suspect that Ciotti had been in the vehicle himself with Fecarotta, and perhaps Eboli as well. Patricia also said that Daryle had told her that apart from Eboli and Ciotti, a man named "Butch" had also been involved in the Seifert hit, presumably Petrocelli, and a fourth name that Patricia didn't recall.

Per the 302 excerpt, also, Nick C did not say that Fecarotta told him that the organization itself *ordered* Daryle's murder, just that Ciotti had killed her because he was worried she was going to talk about the hit car. Which matches what Patricia Clark had said back in 1974. It's very much possible that someone like Eboli or Lombardo had told Ciotti that he he neded to "take care of" his wife or something to that effect, but I think it's also possible that Ciotti, who was a very abusive husband already and paranoid that his wife would talk, killed her on his own initiative. Either way, its doubtful that, like, the Chicago admin put a hit out on Daryle Clark.

-------------------------------------

Regarding Accardo having been directly involved, in some capacity, in the Giancana hit, we've of course also discussed this before. The idea that he was personally involved isn't at all far fetched, as Giancana was his compaesano and Accardo may well have sponsored him for membership. If so, apart from Accardo's role as consigliere at this time, he may very well have had a strong feeling of personal responsibility towards Giancana. I would also note that Nick C's account of what LaPietra told him about the matter doesn't confirm that Accardo was necessarily the shooter himself. At no point does the document state that Nick specifically related that Accardo was the actual shooter, just that he was "involved". It's worth emphasizing here that "doing work" in the mafia doesn't necessarily mean that one was the immediate assailant in a hit, but can also indicate that one played a supportive or secondary role related to the actual violence.

[Camo]

Interestingly there's a similar claim that's also mixed with suicide that Corleonesi Boss Leoluca Bagarella killed his wife. Personally, I don't believe it. Leoluca was a monster and easily could have but I just don't think he did in this instance. She was very depressed, was horrified that her husband was involved in Giuseppe Di Matteo's abduction and imprisonment (this was before his murder) she said to Leoluca "How could you expect God to send us a baby when you are involved in this?" referring to Giuseppe. She was distraught about what happened to her family members. She was a relative of the Marchese's, Filippo Marchese a candidate for most horrifying killer in Mafia History was her uncle and was murdered, her brother Giuseppe Marchese then became an informant after an insane plot by Riina to get rid of them and someone else where he told Giuseppe and her other brother Antonino to murder Vincenzo Puccio in jail they did then they claimed self-defence however this defence immediately evaporated when Riina had Puccio's brother murdered on the outside making it clear it was ordered. All of this was weighing heavily on her and Leoluca said she hanged herself. It's possible he killed her due to Giuseppe becoming an informant but I honestly believe she killed herself.

Oddly despite Leoluca likely being a much worse and more violent person than Ciotti, i think the latter is more likely to have killed his wife personally.

I'd say a 69 year old Boss personally carrying out hits is always going to be farfetched. I understand he had reason to do so but i don't think that makes it any less farfetched, especially in the circumstances with Giancana being watched with cops. Regardless of the corruption in Chicago it would still be a massive risk he really didn't have to take. Not impossible but IMO farfetched. I would say he almost certainly played a major role in his death since he likely ordered it or at least okayed someone elses order so i fully agree he was involved, i'd just be very surprised if he was directly.

[Ivan]

A reliable source (B.) tells me that Blasi told the feds that they "wouldn't believe" him if he told them who really did it. I find that intriguing given how (at least at first glance) the idea that Accardo was the shooter seems so far fetched. That little tidbit plus the various bits of circumstantial and other evidence outlined on here a while back and by Goudie recently leads me to being about 51% (lol) certain that Accardo did it. If someone put a silenced .22 to my head and forced me to guess someone, I'd name Accardo.

[chin_gigante]

It would make sense for an administration member to be present if his presence would cause the target to lower their guard.

I'm reminded of the Sonny Black murder, where official Bonanno consigliere Steve Cannone came along to the house to put Napolitano at ease and left immediately after he was shot.

According to Sal Vitale, official boss Phil Rastelli was standing by at a diner when Caesar Bonventre was killed. Bonventre was lured to his death under a pretence of attending a meeting with Rastelli, so they had him nearby if for whatever reason the murder could not go ahead then the meeting could still take place so as not to arouse Bonventre's suspicion.

Vic Amuso may have already been the official Lucchese boss when he was present for the murder of Buddy Luongo.

Even in Chicago, Sam Carlisi and John DiFronzo were both present for the faux-initiation ceremony set up to kill the Spilotro brothers. Carlisi would have been the boss at that time and DiFronzo was probably the underboss.

[PolackTony]

It would make sense for an administration member to be present if his presence would cause the target to lower their guard.

I'm reminded of the Sonny Black murder, where official Bonanno consigliere Steve Cannone came along to the house to put Napolitano at ease and left immediately after he was shot.

According to Sal Vitale, official boss Phil Rastelli was standing by at a diner when Caesar Bonventre was killed. Bonventre was lured to his death under a pretence of attending a meeting with Rastelli, so they had him nearby if for whatever reason the murder could not go ahead then the meeting could still take place so as not to arouse Bonventre's suspicion.

Vic Amuso may have already been the official Lucchese boss when he was present for the murder of Buddy Luongo.

Even in Chicago, Sam Carlisi and John DiFronzo were both present for the faux-initiation ceremony set up to kill the Spilotro brothers. Carlisi would have been the boss at that time and DiFronzo was probably the underboss.

All great examples to illustrate this point. While we don’t know — and likely never will for sure — who the actual gunman was in the Giancana hit, the idea that Accardo, then consigliere, very likely played some direct role in the event is not far fetched in the least and as you note, it would not be unique in the history of the American mafia by any means if he did. On top of his position in the admin at the time — and one which is specifically focused on protecting the interests of the membership — the longstanding and likely very personal relationship of the two men in question adds another layer of plausibility.

That we now know for a fact that Nick told the Feds that LaPietra told him that Accardo was involved is the news here. Otherwise, the idea that Accardo was involved shouldn’t come as much of a surprise at this point IMO.

Though it’s a much less reliable source than those that told us about the examples Chin cited here, in his book Frank C Jr also claimed that Aiuppa followed the hit team car in another vehicle in the (failed) attempts on Jr’s maternal uncle, union leader Ed Hanley, because Joey O wanted to watch it go down. Given the source (he obviously didn’t have firsthand knowledge of it, and I don’t recall ATM if Jr said who the story came from), can’t take it as fact at face value, but I also don’t think it’s out of the realm of possibility that Aiuppa would do something like that.

[Ivan]

hile we don’t know — and likely never will for sure — who the actual gunman was in the Giancana hit, the idea that Accardo, then consigliere, very likely played some direct role in the event is not far fetched in the least and as you note, it would not be unique in the history of the American mafia by any means if he did.

Yah it's only superficially outlandish. But the more you think about it based on history, available evidence etc., the more sense it makes.

Of course I'm not totally convinced, but I'm leaning toward it (slightly).

[Camo]

It would make sense for an administration member to be present if his presence would cause the target to lower their guard.

I'm reminded of the Sonny Black murder, where official Bonanno consigliere Steve Cannone came along to the house to put Napolitano at ease and left immediately after he was shot.

According to Sal Vitale, official boss Phil Rastelli was standing by at a diner when Caesar Bonventre was killed. Bonventre was lured to his death under a pretence of attending a meeting with Rastelli, so they had him nearby if for whatever reason the murder could not go ahead then the meeting could still take place so as not to arouse Bonventre's suspicion.

Vic Amuso may have already been the official Lucchese boss when he was present for the murder of Buddy Luongo.

Even in Chicago, Sam Carlisi and John DiFronzo were both present for the faux-initiation ceremony set up to kill the Spilotro brothers. Carlisi would have been the boss at that time and DiFronzo was probably the underboss.

All great examples to illustrate this point. While we don’t know — and likely never will for sure — who the actual gunman was in the Giancana hit, the idea that Accardo, then consigliere, very likely played some direct role in the event is not far fetched in the least and as you note, it would not be unique in the history of the American mafia by any means if he did. On top of his position in the admin at the time — and one which is specifically focused on protecting the interests of the membership — the longstanding and likely very personal relationship of the two men in question adds another layer of plausibility.

That we now know for a fact that Nick told the Feds that LaPietra told him that Accardo was involved is the news here. Otherwise, the idea that Accardo was involved shouldn’t come as much of a surprise at this point IMO.

Is there any other example of a Boss (or any admin member) personally killing someone because they felt personally responsible for them? Genuinely asking as i don't think i've heard that before.

My issue is Butch Blasi is already in the perfect position to kill him and would be the person keeping him at ease, feels unneccessary to me to include someone else especially an old Boss. None of the above examples have the Boss personally killing the person and i don't think any were as old as Accardo or in such a risky situtaion with the cops watching him. You did say the claim isn't necessarily that Accardo personally pulled the trigger so i'm not debating with your view here more saying that the thing i have issue with is the idea of Accardo personally killing him, if someone said Accardo was at a diner down the street like Rusty to make sure it went off i'd be able to accept that more. Just my view anyway not trying to change anyones mind but i still see it as farfetched. I believed Accardo was involved before i heard any of these claims, it's just to me his involvement was giving the order.

[PolackTony]

It would make sense for an administration member to be present if his presence would cause the target to lower their guard.

I'm reminded of the Sonny Black murder, where official Bonanno consigliere Steve Cannone came along to the house to put Napolitano at ease and left immediately after he was shot.

According to Sal Vitale, official boss Phil Rastelli was standing by at a diner when Caesar Bonventre was killed. Bonventre was lured to his death under a pretence of attending a meeting with Rastelli, so they had him nearby if for whatever reason the murder could not go ahead then the meeting could still take place so as not to arouse Bonventre's suspicion.

Vic Amuso may have already been the official Lucchese boss when he was present for the murder of Buddy Luongo.

Even in Chicago, Sam Carlisi and John DiFronzo were both present for the faux-initiation ceremony set up to kill the Spilotro brothers. Carlisi would have been the boss at that time and DiFronzo was probably the underboss.

All great examples to illustrate this point. While we don’t know — and likely never will for sure — who the actual gunman was in the Giancana hit, the idea that Accardo, then consigliere, very likely played some direct role in the event is not far fetched in the least and as you note, it would not be unique in the history of the American mafia by any means if he did. On top of his position in the admin at the time — and one which is specifically focused on protecting the interests of the membership — the longstanding and likely very personal relationship of the two men in question adds another layer of plausibility.

That we now know for a fact that Nick told the Feds that LaPietra told him that Accardo was involved is the news here. Otherwise, the idea that Accardo was involved shouldn’t come as much of a surprise at this point IMO.

Is there any other example of a Boss (or any admin member) personally killing someone because they felt personally responsible for them? Genuinely asking as i don't think i've heard that before.

My issue is Butch Blasi is already in the perfect position to kill him and would be the person keeping him at ease, feels unneccessary to me to include someone else especially an old Boss. None of the above examples have the Boss personally killing the person and i don't think any were as old as Accardo or in such a risky situtaion with the cops watching him. You did say the claim isn't necessarily that Accardo personally pulled the trigger so i'm not debating with your view here more saying that the thing i have issue with is the idea of Accardo personally killing him, if someone said Accardo was at a diner down the street like Rusty to make sure it went off i'd be able to accept that more. Just my view anyway not trying to change anyones mind but i still see it as farfetched. I believed Accardo was involved before i heard any of these claims, it's just to me his involvement was giving the order.

Who said that Accardo was the guy who actually shot Giancana? I didn’t say that. In the excerpt from his 302, Nick Calabrese didn’t say that.

The claim that Accardo was “involved” in some direct way with the hit is not the same as the claim that Accardo was the actual gunman. Nick Calabrese’s vague statement to the FBI, based on an account that he received from Angelo LaPietra (who we can presume was not extravagantly detailed about the matter, to say the least), adds support for the former claim, not the latter.

[Camo]

It would make sense for an administration member to be present if his presence would cause the target to lower their guard.

I'm reminded of the Sonny Black murder, where official Bonanno consigliere Steve Cannone came along to the house to put Napolitano at ease and left immediately after he was shot.

According to Sal Vitale, official boss Phil Rastelli was standing by at a diner when Caesar Bonventre was killed. Bonventre was lured to his death under a pretence of attending a meeting with Rastelli, so they had him nearby if for whatever reason the murder could not go ahead then the meeting could still take place so as not to arouse Bonventre's suspicion.

Vic Amuso may have already been the official Lucchese boss when he was present for the murder of Buddy Luongo.

Even in Chicago, Sam Carlisi and John DiFronzo were both present for the faux-initiation ceremony set up to kill the Spilotro brothers. Carlisi would have been the boss at that time and DiFronzo was probably the underboss.

All great examples to illustrate this point. While we don’t know — and likely never will for sure — who the actual gunman was in the Giancana hit, the idea that Accardo, then consigliere, very likely played some direct role in the event is not far fetched in the least and as you note, it would not be unique in the history of the American mafia by any means if he did. On top of his position in the admin at the time — and one which is specifically focused on protecting the interests of the membership — the longstanding and likely very personal relationship of the two men in question adds another layer of plausibility.

That we now know for a fact that Nick told the Feds that LaPietra told him that Accardo was involved is the news here. Otherwise, the idea that Accardo was involved shouldn’t come as much of a surprise at this point IMO.

Is there any other example of a Boss (or any admin member) personally killing someone because they felt personally responsible for them? Genuinely asking as i don't think i've heard that before.

My issue is Butch Blasi is already in the perfect position to kill him and would be the person keeping him at ease, feels unneccessary to me to include someone else especially an old Boss. None of the above examples have the Boss personally killing the person and i don't think any were as old as Accardo or in such a risky situtaion with the cops watching him. You did say the claim isn't necessarily that Accardo personally pulled the trigger so i'm not debating with your view here more saying that the thing i have issue with is the idea of Accardo personally killing him, if someone said Accardo was at a diner down the street like Rusty to make sure it went off i'd be able to accept that more. Just my view anyway not trying to change anyones mind but i still see it as farfetched. I believed Accardo was involved before i heard any of these claims, it's just to me his involvement was giving the order.

Who said that Accardo was the guy who actually shot Giancana? I didn’t say that. In the excerpt from his 302, Nick Calabrese didn’t say that.

The claim that Accardo was “involved” in some direct way with the hit is not the same as the claim that Accardo was the actual gunman. Nick Calabrese’s vague statement to the FBI, based on an account that he received from Angelo LaPietra (who we can presume was not extravagantly detailed about the matter, to say the least), adds support for the former claim, not the latter.

I believe there was an earlier claim that Accardo was the actual gunman and it was discussed here. Unless i'm forgetting? And i didn't say you said that, i said the opposite that you didn't say that "You did say the claim isn't necessarily that Accardo personally pulled the trigger".

What's the point of bringing Accardo in to subdue him to have someone else shoot him when Blasi already would subdue him? Seems unnecessarily convoluted to me. I think it depends on what LaPietra meant exactly. He could have meant Accardo ordered it and chose the shooter in which case i'd fully agree.

[Ivan]

I believe there was an earlier claim that Accardo was the actual gunman and it was discussed here.

I think you might be mixing me up with Tony? I said I was leaning toward it because of LaPietra's "You're never too old to do work like JB" comment ("work" to me sounds like more is going on with Accardo than murder conspiracy involvement) and Blasi's comment that the feds "wouldn't believe" him if he told them the truth, combined with the various circumstantial and other evidence Goudie et alia compiled. And I'm only slightly leaning toward Accardo doing it, not certain that he did it; we will probably never know for sure.

[Camo]

I believe there was an earlier claim that Accardo was the actual gunman and it was discussed here.

I think you might be mixing me up with Tony? I said I was leaning toward it because of LaPietra's "You're never too old to do work like JB" comment ("work" to me sounds like more is going on with Accardo than murder conspiracy involvement) and Blasi's comment that the feds "wouldn't believe" him if he told them the truth, combined with the various circumstantial and other evidence Goudie et alia compiled. And I'm only slightly leaning toward Accardo doing it, not certain that he did it; we will probably never know for sure.

No, sorry i didn't mean any of you made the claim. I'm saying i believe it came up much earlier in the thread and was discussed here. This thread moves fast i missed what was being discussed and thought that old discussion came back up, didn't realize it was about new information. Just saw Chin's post after i responded to PolackTony, my fault. That "you're never too old" comment does suggest direct involvement but i could still see it being misinterpreted.

I still find it very convoluted unless it was about Accardo feeling he had to do it for personal reasons like PolackTony suggested but it's still hard for me to buy personally.

[Ivan]

I still find it very convoluted unless it was about Accardo feeling he had to do it for personal reasons like PolackTony suggested but it's still hard for me to buy personally.

It is hard to buy, at least upon first hearing the idea; that's why I find Blasi's "wouldn't believe" comment so compelling. That's just me though.

[Camo]

I still find it very convoluted unless it was about Accardo feeling he had to do it for personal reasons like PolackTony suggested but it's still hard for me to buy personally.

It is hard to buy, at least upon first hearing the idea; that's why I find Blasi's "wouldn't believe" comment so compelling. That's just me though.

Understand your point of view but i don't find that comment that compelling personally. I think the "you wouldn't believe me" comment was to point away from himself. He was a CI not a CW (or do I have them backwards? lol) it wasn't like he was testifying in court and could be charged with any murders he didn't mention. Surely he wouldn't mention him personally killing someone, that comment makes perfect sense to me I could see myself saying something like that to point away from myself. The LaPietra comment is more interesting to me since it was to another mobster and also because it's definitely referring to Accardo, even if Butch's comment was genuine it could be about someone else.

[Camo]

Actually, i think it may have been this thread from 2018 i was talking about - viewtopic.php?t=3646

It was probably discussed in this thread a number of times too though. I caught a post and missed Chin's one and thought that was being relitigated didn't realize there was new information.