My only push back against this is that even when they had vastly more resources to dedicate to investigating the Outfit, they still under-counted the estimated members by about 10-15 guys. Most of the guys at Nick's making ceremony weren't even listed on the 1985 list, which was nearly two years after he was made. I suppose you could counter and say Nick would be able to give them a more accurate count, but if the 2007 estimate was under-counted by even half a dozen, I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility that they made 10-12 in the intervening 18 years, which makes the figure of 30 at least realistic, especially considering below.Wiseguy wrote: ↑Tue Apr 22, 2025 9:51 amIf the Outfit was at approximately 30 members in 2007, and as many as 20 members have died since then, they actually would have had to make around two dozen guys to be at 30-35 now.Snakes wrote: ↑Fri Apr 18, 2025 5:55 pmI'd say a realistic estimate is 30 to 35, leaning towards the lower end. They barely had 50 to 60 guys in the 80s, so assuming they have the low end of that in 2025 is a bit generous. I do think it's realistic that Sarno had some sort of recruiting drive considering the age and incarceration of many members at that point in time, but it's hard for me to accept two dozen guys.
I don't really see where you get 20 guys having died since 2007. I don't even count 10:
Andriacchi
Frank Sr.
John and Pete DiFronzo
Joe Grieco
Lombardo
Lou Marino
Al Tornabene
Any other name has serious doubts about their actual status as a member (D'Amico, Cozzo, Petitt). I can't go back into the chart post and amend the entries because I can no longer edit the initial post.
Additionally, that there may be some kind of split in Outfit organization may be partly true, but this may also result in confusion about the crew structure. Is it two crews or four crews operating within a split structure? I don't there is reliable evidence pointing either way, so I'm open to both. Vena's title has also been inconsistently applied. During his trial, Steve Mandell was cross-examined and asked by the government “And you knew Albert Vena but didn't know Albert Vena as the boss of the Grand Avenue crew?" so there isn't unanimity there.
This is also kind of quibbling, but court documents suggest that Melrose Park and Cicero were combined under Zizzo while Marcello was in prison (and also collectively referred to as "Cicero," which may have just been a moniker for the whole west side of the Outfit). Melrose Park ("Carlisi" crew) is probably the one crew that can be declared defunct with any type of confidence, unless you count whatever constitutes the current West Side/Cicero crew as an evolved version of it. Finally, I can't vouch for his status now, but Toots was named as the "reputed leader" of the Chinatown crew by the Tribune as late as 2010.
