General Chicago Outfit Info Dumping Ground

[Patrickgold]

Good points on the garrote - I was not aware of the exact cause of death and had thought blunt force trauma for at least one of them. It's still odd to involve so many people in a murder - its just not typical for the Outfit as you saw in Nick C's testimony that he often had no idea who was being hit and when and that often included hits he wasn't part of (like the Daubers). For a family who worked overtime to keep everyone in the dark and as secretive as possible, its just wild that they would take such a risk involving so many people just to hit two guys.

It was very risky. The fact that most of these guys were under surveillance all going to the same place to kill two people in one of the biggest hits in Outfit history made it a huge RISK. I know there are some that say Nick C lied about the hit bc it didn’t make sense and he also said Rocky Infelice was there when it was proven that he was not. He also couldn’t remember where the house was.

[Ivan]

I highly doubt Balistrieri had the juice to order that. My guess is as others have said that it was an unsanctioned move by Spilotro.

Just to be clear, I'm neutral on this point myself. I wasn't advocating for the Balistrieri theory.

I just thought it was interesting that the feds were at the time convinced he did it when Spilotro seemed the more obvious person behind it.

[funkster]

Yeah I gotcha.

[Coloboy]

I highly doubt Balistrieri had the juice to order that. My guess is as others have said that it was an unsanctioned move by Spilotro.

Just to be clear, I'm neutral on this point myself. I wasn't advocating for the Balistrieri theory.

I just thought it was interesting that the feds were at the time convinced he did it when Spilotro seemed the more obvious person behind it.

Who knows, maybe Spilotro did try to kill Rosenthal, and that became one of the major strikes against him. Although Rosenthal by all accounts wasn’t in the best graces with the outfit either at this time.

[PolackTony]

Good points on the garrote - I was not aware of the exact cause of death and had thought blunt force trauma for at least one of them. It's still odd to involve so many people in a murder - its just not typical for the Outfit as you saw in Nick C's testimony that he often had no idea who was being hit and when and that often included hits he wasn't part of (like the Daubers). For a family who worked overtime to keep everyone in the dark and as secretive as possible, its just wild that they would take such a risk involving so many people just to hit two guys.

It was very risky. The fact that most of these guys were under surveillance all going to the same place to kill two people in one of the biggest hits in Outfit history made it a huge RISK. I know there are some that say Nick C lied about the hit bc it didn’t make sense and he also said Rocky Infelice was there when it was proven that he was not. He also couldn’t remember where the house was.

It was unusually risky, I'd say, but not totally unprecedented for LCN in this period (as B brought up recently with the Bonannos "Three Capos" murders, which, if anything, was even more brazen and risky). I see this as a matter of pragmatics, as clearly the desire to get rid of the Spilotros outweighed the percieved risk (whether or not this was a good judgment in retrospect depends, of course; but we should keep in mind that these murders remained a cold case until a participant was pinched many years later for an unrelated murder; without Nick C's cooperation, they would probably never have been solved). While no informant is infallible, I don't think Nick's account is at all implausible (again, guys in Chicago were blowing people up in this period on expressways in broad daylight, and pulling other brazen hits, so they were not really as stealthy as people might assume) and his account of ligature strangulation fits the official cause of death. While surveillance was obviously a risk, it also would not surprise me if they had at least one cop in Bensenville on their payroll who would have been told to look out for Feds, suspicious activities, etc.

Another thing to consider here is that the Spilotros almost certainly knew that they were in hot water (Michael had a gun on him when arriving at the ceremony and had told his wife when leaving that if they didn't return by a certain time they were "in big trouble"). They may have even been aware that a previous attempt had been made on them in Vegas (or at least suspected something was afoot, which I would presume) but ultimately decided they couldn't keep dodging the organization forever. I would note here also that both brothers, at the time of their murders, were awaiting trial, on unrelated cases. If they had gotten wind that a contract had been put on them and were also facing trial, they would have been high risk of flipping, which could well have tipped the balance for Chicago to press forward with ensuring they were eliminated ASAP, despite the inherent risks of the strategy employed to dispatch them. I don't think it's difficult to imagine Tony feeling backed into a corner and cooperating, TBH, and if he had done so he certainly would have been in the position to do very serious damage to a lot of guys.

I highly doubt Balistrieri had the juice to order that. My guess is as others have said that it was an unsanctioned move by Spilotro.

Just to be clear, I'm neutral on this point myself. I wasn't advocating for the Balistrieri theory.

I just thought it was interesting that the feds were at the time convinced he did it when Spilotro seemed the more obvious person behind it.

Who knows, maybe Spilotro did try to kill Rosenthal, and that became one of the major strikes against him. Although Rosenthal by all accounts wasn’t in the best graces with the outfit either at this time.

Right. My picture is that Rosenthal had lost a lot of face by 1982. But he did have longtime personal relationships with guys like Cerone and Fifi Buccieri (long dead of course by then, but I believe Rosenthal had also been tight with Ferriola). Even if he was on the outs as an associate, he still belonged to Chicago and if Balistrieri in fact wanted his head (which, just based on the FBI bugs, I don't think is at all conclusive anyway), he would need to present a compelling case to Chicago (Aiuppa being his Avugad, of course), who would then need to agree and approve it. And, assuming that this then even happened, it's hard to believe that they would approve a bombing like this in Vegas (their hitters didn't even feel comfortable *shooting* the Spilotros in Vegas, for example), which was a much riskier proposition than an attack like that back in Chicagoland.

All things being equal, as a general statement, the FBI tends to be more on the mark with respect to LCN than local LE, but there are many specific instances and cases where this general trend doesn't hold. The FBI is far from perfect -- they can be subject to bad intel and to various forms of bias, error, and motivated reasoning like anyone else. As with many of these questions, we likely will never have firm evidence one way or the other, but for the above reasons I have a hard time, a priori, buying that this was a sanctioned hit attempt from either/both Chicago and/or Milwaukee (unless there is some particularly compelling evidence that I am unaware of, in which case I'm more than happy to update my belief).

---------

Going back to the question of Tony S's fictive promotion to capodecina (and ignoring for the sake of argument here the very real possibility that he could have been told he was being promoted over a new crew). While we know for a fact that as of the mid-1970s he was a soldier assigned to Lombardo, per Frank Bompensiero's intel, Cullotta and other sources I think make it pretty clear that he had been an associate on record with the Buccieri crew, reporting to Turk Torello, prior to being made; I don't know for a fact but suspect that he was made into the Buccieri crew and later transferred to Lombardo. Presuming that Eboli in fact succeeded Lombardo (whether as acting or official capo, though that crew could also have been split when Lombard was imprisoned and we wouldn't necessarily have any clue), then Eboli was *probably* Spilotro's captain as of 1986.

Youse all might recall a 1979 FBI report that I've discussed before, where Red Wemette was reporting back to his handlers after a chat with Frank Schweihs -- the FBI were very alarmed as they had gotten intel that Spilotro had requested a hit be put out on an FBI agent, so they wanted Wemette to see what Schweihs would say about this. Wemette reported that Schweihs told him that Spilotro was already in a lot of hot water with Aiuppa at this time for causing trouble in Vegas, and that he was considered "expendable" and would be a dead man if he were to attempt a hit on an FBI agent, which of course the bosses would never approve (Schweihs would know, as he obviously would have been one of those tasked to make Tony S dead). Wemette also reported that Schweihs claimed that the admin was considering bumping Tony up to replace Turk Torello, not to reward him but to get him permanently out of Vegas and back home where they could keep a closer "eye on him". This was the claim of a guy who, to keep him in appropriate perspective, was an associate of an associate (and while I have good reason to have serious issues with Wemette's latter day claims on YT, I think he was probably a relatively reliable informant when he was a CI, albeit one with a limited POV and relationship to the actual organization), but it stood out to me considering that we have good grounds to believe that Spilotro was previously an affiliate of the Buccieri crew.

[Antiliar]

We also know that he was close to Milwaukee Phil, so it might be that Spilotro was passed around from Alderisio when he went to prison, sometimes being ordered around by Lombardo, other times Torello, Ferriola or Cerone, and later Carlisi and Marcello. It suggests that he answered to the council, at least until he was apparently direct to Marcello.

[Richards_bar]

We also know that he was close to Milwaukee Phil, so it might be that Spilotro was passed around from Alderisio when he went to prison, sometimes being ordered around by Lombardo, other times Torello, Ferriola or Cerone, and later Carlisi and Marcello. It suggests that he answered to the council, at least until he was apparently direct to Marcello.

He wasn’t under Marcello. He was under Lombardo.

[Antiliar]

Lombardo went to prison in 1982. Marcello was the one who called them to go to their final meeting.

[Ivan]

I didn't know Marcello was high-up enough at the time to have a guy like Spilotro under him. Hunh.

[Snakes]

I didn't know Marcello was high-up enough at the time to have a guy like Spilotro under him. Hunh.

Marcello was known to be Carlisi's protege, so I would assume he acted as a conduit for his orders, including this one.

[PolackTony]

Lombardo went to prison in 1982. Marcello was the one who called them to go to their final meeting.

It’s possible that Marcello did actually call (as in, make a phone call to) the brothers prior to the fake ceremony, but this doesn’t mean he necessarily issued an order to them or anything like this (rather, he may well just have informed them of when and where to go the day of the murders). If so, that wouldn’t be surprising as he may have been acting as a messenger for Carlisi, as Snakes noted above.

Michael’s daughter Michelle testified that Marcello had called her father the day of the murder, but there are some real questions about this, as the caller was only identified as Marcello after the Feds played her an “audio lineup” of Marcello speaking vs 5 agents reading from a newspaper (I think everyone can decide for themselves how reliable this identification method might be).

In his testimony, Nick C said that Fecarotta came up with the ceremony as a ruse to lure the brothers into a trap, and that someone of course had to have reached out to them to inform them of the ceremony, but he said that he had “no idea” who that was.

Pat Spilotro testified that Marcello drove his brothers to the murder scene, but he himself wasn’t personally witness to this and claimed that Michael’s wife Ann told him this. Ann Spilotro, however, so far as I’m aware, said no such thing in her own testimony.

Nick C of course testified that Marcello drove him, Fecarotta, and Jimmy LaPietra to the Bensenville house, after the latter three rendezvoused with Marcello at another suburban location to change vehicles. Nick C also said that he understood that the Spilotros had arrived in their own vehicle, which Fecarotta was tasked with disposing of after the murders.

Maybe there’s something I’m forgetting ATM, but if I’m right there’s nothing substantive that would support Marcello as having had any authority whatsoever over the Spilotros.

We know for a fact (as much of a fact as most things with this subject) that circa 1975, Tony S was assigned to Lombardo. Who he may have been assigned to when he was initially made and who he reported to at the time of his death is not established with anything like that sort of reliability, so far as I know.

I know there are some that say Nick C lied about the hit bc it didn’t make sense and he also said Rocky Infelice was there when it was proven that he was not. He also couldn’t remember where the house was.

This is worth looking at in more detail too. Several news outlets did report that Calabrese claimed that Rocky Infelice was present at the scene of the murders. But in the actual testimony transcript, no such statement appears. He testified that himself, Fecarotta, Jimmy Lap, Marcello, Carlisi, DiFronzo, Ferriola, Eboli, and Marino were present, along with three men (one of whom wore glasses) who Nick did not know. No mention of Rocky in connection to any of the events surrounding the Spilotro murders at all. In fact, the only time that Nick mentioned Rocky at all in that day of testimony (July 18, 2007) was when he asserted that Rocky was made in the same ceremony that he was, in 1983.

Later, on July 23rd, Nick was cross-examined by Tom Breen, counsel for Marcello. Breen raised that Nick had told the FBI back when he was debriefed that he had seen Infelice at the house the night of the murders, which could not have been true as Infelice was under FBI surveillance during the evening in question. Nick replied that he had told the FBI that he believed he might have seen Rocky “out of the corner of my eye”. Minor discrepancies or a couple of fuzzy details like this are to be expected when someone attempts to recall events from nearly 20 years in the past, of course.

Nick didn’t recall the precise, exact location of the house, but it had been many years since that night and I’m not aware that he was otherwise familiar with this residence either prior to or subsequent to the murders. Nick testified that the home was in a “housing division […] near Irving Park, Bensenville”. Which to me, seems like nothing unless one is just looking for any minor thing to discredit Nick’s entire testimony (not saying that Patrick is doing this, but there have obviously been people at the time and since who would very much like to do this).

[PolackTony]

I didn't know Marcello was high-up enough at the time to have a guy like Spilotro under him. Hunh.

He may have been elevated to captain at this time, with Carlisi having been elevated to boss. And Spilotro was a soldier. But as I noted above, there is no evidence that I know of that Spilotro was assigned to report to this crew at any point in time.

[PolackTony]

As another point in support of Spilotro having been affiliated with the Buccieri crew early on, in later years Lefty Rosenthal gave a public interview where he claimed that when they were young, he once had to intervene to save his life when Spilotro mouthed off to Buccieri and Fifi strangled him. I don’t believe that Rosenthal gave a year, but we can presume that if this happened, it would have been before Spilotro was made. It’s obviously nothing definitive and Rosenthal could have made it up or exaggerated. But it’s yet another account that puts Spilotro around Buccieri (and also suggests that the outfit had been trying to asphyxiate him for causing problems for decades).

To reiterate what Cullotta claimed — he said that Spilotro had initially started when he was young working for Sam DeStefano. Tony and Joey Lombardo (Cullotta said that Lombardo was not yet made at this time, IIRC) pulled a bank robbery with some other guys somewhere out in the sticks in Indiana and made a big score. Cullotta claimed that Paul Ricca caught wind of this and was impressed with Spilotro, arranging to have Tony reassigned to work for Turk Torello at which point his “career took off” (something to that effect).

[Antiliar]

Lombardo went to prison in 1982. Marcello was the one who called them to go to their final meeting.

It’s possible that Marcello did actually call (as in, make a phone call to) the brothers prior to the fake ceremony, but this doesn’t mean he necessarily issued an order to them or anything like this (rather, he may well just have informed them of when and where to go the day of the murders). If so, that wouldn’t be surprising as he may have been acting as a messenger for Carlisi, as Snakes noted above.

Michael’s daughter Michelle testified that Marcello had called her father the day of the murder, but there are some real questions about this, as the caller was only identified as Marcello after the Feds played her an “audio lineup” of Marcello speaking vs 5 agents reading from a newspaper (I think everyone can decide for themselves how reliable this identification method might be).

In his testimony, Nick C said that Fecarotta came up with the ceremony as a ruse to lure the brothers into a trap, and that someone of course had to have reached out to them to inform them of the ceremony, but he said that he had “no idea” who that was.

Pat Spilotro testified that Marcello drove his brothers to the murder scene, but he himself wasn’t personally witness to this and claimed that Michael’s wife Ann told him this. Ann Spilotro, however, so far as I’m aware, said no such thing in her own testimony.

Nick C of course testified that Marcello drove him, Fecarotta, and Jimmy LaPietra to the Bensenville house, after the latter three rendezvoused with Marcello at another suburban location to change vehicles. Nick C also said that he understood that the Spilotros had arrived in their own vehicle, which Fecarotta was tasked with disposing of after the murders.

Maybe there’s something I’m forgetting ATM, but if I’m right there’s nothing substantive that would support Marcello as having had any authority whatsoever over the Spilotros.

We know for a fact (as much of a fact as most things with this subject) that circa 1975, Tony S was assigned to Lombardo. Who he may have been assigned to when he was initially made and who he reported to at the time of his death is not established with anything like that sort of reliability, so far as I know.

I know there are some that say Nick C lied about the hit bc it didn’t make sense and he also said Rocky Infelice was there when it was proven that he was not. He also couldn’t remember where the house was.

This is worth looking at in more detail too. Several news outlets did report that Calabrese claimed that Rocky Infelice was present at the scene of the murders. But in the actual testimony transcript, no such statement appears. He testified that himself, Fecarotta, Jimmy Lap, Marcello, Carlisi, DiFronzo, Ferriola, Eboli, and Marino were present, along with three men (one of whom wore glasses) who Nick did not know. No mention of Rocky in connection to any of the events surrounding the Spilotro murders at all. In fact, the only time that Nick mentioned Rocky at all in that day of testimony (July 18, 2007) was when he asserted that Rocky was made in the same ceremony that he was, in 1983.

Later, on July 23rd, Nick was cross-examined by Tom Breen, counsel for Marcello. Breen raised that Nick had told the FBI back when he was debriefed that he had seen Infelice at the house the night of the murders, which could not have been true as Infelice was under FBI surveillance during the evening in question. Nick replied that he had told the FBI that he believed he might have seen Rocky “out of the corner of my eye”. Minor discrepancies or a couple of fuzzy details like this are to be expected when someone attempts to recall events from nearly 20 years in the past, of course.

Nick didn’t recall the precise, exact location of the house, but it had been many years since that night and I’m not aware that he was otherwise familiar with this residence either prior to or subsequent to the murders. Nick testified that the home was in a “housing division […] near Irving Park, Bensenville”. Which to me, seems like nothing unless one is just looking for any minor thing to discredit Nick’s entire testimony (not saying that Patrick is doing this, but there have obviously been people at the time and since who would very much like to do this).

To clarify, I think after Marcello became a capo Spilotro answered to him and continued to answer to Ferriola. It's my opinion, but I think Marcello already had a relationship and he was promoted to capo before the Spilotros were killed and so was in a position to give orders. I wasn't saying that Spilotro was in Marcello's personal crew however. Like I wrote, the evidence suggests at different times that he reported to the council, so he was probably more likely directed to certain select capos who that were subject to change.

As for the phone call, it was reported as early as 1993 based on information supplied to CIs - who later turned out to be Mike Spilotro's wife and daughter, so I don't think there's evidence to show that the G fed them information.

Regarding the cause of death that was mentioned, per an FBI airtel from 5/27/93 says, "Autopsies conducted showed that both SPILOTROs were beaten. The cause of death was listed for each as asphyxia, due to blunt forced trauma about the head, neck, and chest."

The same airtel reported that it was believed at the time that the brothers were beaten to death near their burial location.

Frank Rosenthal also told Nick Pileggi about the Buccieri incident. It's in the Casino book, so his story was at least consistent. I think it's a credible story since Rosenthal seemed to be honest with his first-hand experiences.

[PolackTony]

To clarify, I think after Marcello became a capo Spilotro answered to him and continued to answer to Ferriola. It's my opinion, but I think Marcello already had a relationship and he was promoted to capo before the Spilotros were killed and so was in a position to give orders. I wasn't saying that Spilotro was in Marcello's personal crew however. Like I wrote, the evidence suggests at different times that he reported to the council, so he was probably more likely directed to certain select capos who that were subject to change.

I’m not aware of any info supporting that Spilotro reported to Marcello (during the presumably brief period of time between whenever Marcello was actually elevated to captain and Spilotro’s death). Same with the contention that Spilotro reported directly to the admin and not to a captain (he was soldier so he was either assigned to a captain or direct to the boss, of course, at any given time). If you have this info please share it.

As for the phone call, it was reported as early as 1993 based on information supplied to CIs - who later turned out to be Mike Spilotro's wife and daughter, so I don't think there's evidence to show that the G fed them information.

I don’t know that this is inconsistent with the account that I noted from the trial testimony. Michelle Spilotro told investigators that a man called their home asking for her father the day the murders. She was played an “audio lineup” by investigators and identified Marcello’s voice as the voice of the man who called. Note that I never claimed that “the G fed them information”, just that the evidence for Marcello having been the caller was based on an unsound (pun intended) method. And as I also stated, Marcello may well have called them, but if so this wouldn’t provide any evidence that they reported to him as their captain (I don’t want to mischaracterize your claim, but that seems to have been what you were arguing above).

Regarding the cause of death that was mentioned, per an FBI airtel from 5/27/93 says, "Autopsies conducted showed that both SPILOTROs were beaten. The cause of death was listed for each as asphyxia, due to blunt forced trauma about the head, neck, and chest."

Yes. And to me this is all consistent with forcible restraint and ligature strangulation, with a presumably violent struggle and use of additional force by the assailants prior to expiration.

The same airtel reported that it was believed at the time that the brothers were beaten to death near their burial location.

Sure. We know that; it was widely reported in the press in 1986 that investigators at that time believed that the two were beaten to death in the immediate vicinity of their burial site. They were almost certainly wrong here.

Frank Rosenthal also told Nick Pileggi about the Buccieri incident. It's in the Casino book, so his story was at least consistent. I think it's a credible story since Rosenthal seemed to be honest with his first-hand experiences.

Thanks for adding this. Agreed on Rosenthal.