Family secrets case wipe out Chicago

[JeremyTheJew]

I started these forums back in 2006/2010 ish

Back then we use to have CHICAGO VS NYC arguments for days and days.
These were WG and Pogo heydays where the original arguments and “winning streaks” for there arguments had started.

Anyways ; back then we would go back and forth about the power of CHICAGO and how they had “real” power compared to NYC (and half the time they were comparing all of NYC and/or the west side)

Back then there was zero talk about extinction
10/15 years later we have arguments over if there even if a outfit….

So ….. family secrets did exactly what it was tryna do - pretty much wiped out Chicago - any thoughts on this?

[Antiliar]

Family Secrets did a lot of damage, as did the case against Mike Sarno shortly after it, but it didn't wipe it out. It still exists, but much smaller than it was.

The damage is actually cumulative going back to cases from the 1960s, such as the contempt case against Sam Giancana followed by the cases that sent Battaglia, Cerone and Alderisio to prison. The feds going after the Outfit's political and legal protection in operations Gambat and Greylord in 1990s probably did the most damage. A lot of important guys went away in the 1990s: Carlisi, Alex, Infelice, Marcello, and it was the first time an important insider testified in the person of Lenny Patrick. Family Secrets took it a step farther with an actual made member testifying for the first time in history.

[SonnyBlackstein]

Is it a case of suicide more than fed pressure though? Ie Outfit just not making anyone. Back in the late 70's they could've had 250 buttons. Instead what, 50? Why?

Any opinions on why it was so impossible to get made in Chi vs EVERYWHERE else? What was the 'cultural' difference?

Two part post.

[Ivan]

Family Secrets did a lot of damage, as did the case against Mike Sarno shortly after it, but it didn't wipe it out. It still exists, but much smaller than it was.

IMHO biggest blow delivered by Family Secrets was taking out Marcello permanently as he seemed to me to be the kind of person who could successfully rebuild the Outfit. I think the feds believed this too and I suspect it's a big part of why he's in Supermax.

Gambat and Greylord were the types of cases that reduce a family from being a "shadow government" of sorts to just a bunch of gangsters. Something similar happened to Buffalo with the loss of Local 210. And Pittsburgh practically overnight went from a "shadow government" to a handful of old hoodlums in Pennsylvania with the flipping of Lenny Strollo and the loss of all the corrupt Mahoning Valley officials. Though from what I understand the Outfit has had no problem sustaining the old 1st Ward conditions in Cicero.

[JeremyTheJew]

So I thought Marcelo was really just a “street boss” to difronzo?? I remember us talking about a family secret pt 2 to get th real boss

Interesting to possibly have marcello in position to rebuild the family

Also didn’t a UB get killed within the last 15 years?? You would think with something like that there hadda been a power move somewhere- still no influx of members tho

Also pretty interesting thinking of one case that devistates a whole family - I think that’s a good for a whole nother thread tho

[Snakes]

Is it a case of suicide more than fed pressure though? Ie Outfit just not making anyone. Back in the late 70's they could've had 250 buttons. Instead what, 50? Why?

Any opinions on why it was so impossible to get made in Chi vs EVERYWHERE else? What was the 'cultural' difference?

Two part post.

It certainly played a part, but they really had no reason to make that many guys as they had a single family as opposed to the five (or six, if you want to count the DeCavalcantes) that operated in the NYC area, so there was less of a need for a making "arms race," so to speak. The more guys who were made, the more the pie had to be split. This bit them once so many guys got put away in the early 90s, though.

[Snakes]

So I thought Marcelo was really just a “street boss” to difronzo?? I remember us talking about a family secret pt 2 to get th real boss

Interesting to possibly have marcello in position to rebuild the family

Also didn’t a UB get killed within the last 15 years?? You would think with something like that there hadda been a power move somewhere- still no influx of members tho

Also pretty interesting thinking of one case that devistates a whole family - I think that’s a good for a whole nother thread tho

We go into detail on that here:

viewtopic.php?t=12325

[SonnyBlackstein]

Is it a case of suicide more than fed pressure though? Ie Outfit just not making anyone. Back in the late 70's they could've had 250 buttons. Instead what, 50? Why?

Any opinions on why it was so impossible to get made in Chi vs EVERYWHERE else? What was the 'cultural' difference?

Two part post.

It certainly played a part, but they really had no reason to make that many guys as they had a single family as opposed to the five (or six, if you want to count the DeCavalcantes) that operated in the NYC area, so there was less of a need for a making "arms race," so to speak. The more guys who were made, the more the pie had to be split. This bit them once so many guys got put away in the early 90s, though.

Good post Snakes. Cheers

[aray22]

Also didn’t a UB get killed within the last 15 years?? You would think with something like that there hadda been a power move somewhere- still no influx of members tho

That's not what Scott claims.

[Snakes]

Also didn’t a UB get killed within the last 15 years?? You would think with something like that there hadda been a power move somewhere- still no influx of members tho

That's not what Scott claims.

Maybe they have, maybe they haven't. I haven't see anything official (court doc or FBI file) that indicates this, but you'd be naive to think that nobody has been inducted. Whether that's 20 members or 2 is depending on who you ask.

[JeremyTheJew]

Is it a case of suicide more than fed pressure though? Ie Outfit just not making anyone. Back in the late 70's they could've had 250 buttons. Instead what, 50? Why?

Any opinions on why it was so impossible to get made in Chi vs EVERYWHERE else? What was the 'cultural' difference?

Two part post.

It certainly played a part, but they really had no reason to make that many guys as they had a single family as opposed to the five (or six, if you want to count the DeCavalcantes) that operated in the NYC area, so there was less of a need for a making "arms race," so to speak. The more guys who were made, the more the pie had to be split. This bit them once so many guys got put away in the early 90s, though.

Great post very valid reason right there.

At the height of the outfit they only had I wanna say 100 or so official made members…. And even then there were plenty of non made associates that were same status;
Humphries, Gus alex , Jake guzik, Lenny Patrick , plenty other guys - the German guy

If I remember correctly at one time they were makings ppl with the gun and knife - meaning at some point this was a honor to get made…… which bosses were making members this way? Or am I wrong

[Snakes]

Is it a case of suicide more than fed pressure though? Ie Outfit just not making anyone. Back in the late 70's they could've had 250 buttons. Instead what, 50? Why?

Any opinions on why it was so impossible to get made in Chi vs EVERYWHERE else? What was the 'cultural' difference?

Two part post.

It certainly played a part, but they really had no reason to make that many guys as they had a single family as opposed to the five (or six, if you want to count the DeCavalcantes) that operated in the NYC area, so there was less of a need for a making "arms race," so to speak. The more guys who were made, the more the pie had to be split. This bit them once so many guys got put away in the early 90s, though.

Great post very valid reason right there.

At the height of the outfit they only had I wanna say 100 or so official made members…. And even then there were plenty of non made associates that were same status;
Humphries, Gus alex , Jake guzik, Lenny Patrick , plenty other guys - the German guy

If I remember correctly at one time they were makings ppl with the gun and knife - meaning at some point this was a honor to get made…… which bosses were making members this way? Or am I wrong

Well, there are a lot of misconceptions here that have been covered plenty of times in the Outfit thread so you may want to check that out

[PolackTony]

Is it a case of suicide more than fed pressure though? Ie Outfit just not making anyone. Back in the late 70's they could've had 250 buttons. Instead what, 50? Why?

Any opinions on why it was so impossible to get made in Chi vs EVERYWHERE else? What was the 'cultural' difference?

Two part post.

It certainly played a part, but they really had no reason to make that many guys as they had a single family as opposed to the five (or six, if you want to count the DeCavalcantes) that operated in the NYC area, so there was less of a need for a making "arms race," so to speak. The more guys who were made, the more the pie had to be split. This bit them once so many guys got put away in the early 90s, though.

Great post very valid reason right there.

At the height of the outfit they only had I wanna say 100 or so official made members…. And even then there were plenty of non made associates that were same status;
Humphries, Gus alex , Jake guzik, Lenny Patrick , plenty other guys - the German guy

If I remember correctly at one time they were makings ppl with the gun and knife - meaning at some point this was a honor to get made…… which bosses were making members this way? Or am I wrong

Well, there are a lot of misconceptions here that have been covered plenty of times in the Outfit thread so you may want to check that out

Yeah, we literally just had a discussion about this exact topic...

[Ivan]

Still think it might be a good idea to make an Outfit FAQ that covers all this stuff that people could be pointed to.

I mean how would you even go about searching for what Jeremy the Jew is asking about Outfit associates here? It's too broad a question to narrow down and find in search. You could just tell people to read the whole Outfit thread but it's 400 pages long.

Whenever someone brings up things that have been discussed before many times and are not in the FAQ yet, you could then add them to the FAQ on such an ad hoc basis.

[Waingro]

IMO, the only loss was James Marcello and just the "aura" of the Outfit. Nobody knows what was really going on with Joe Lombardo so his imprisonment could have been meaningless, Frank Schweihs was still gonna die in 2008 anyway, Frank Calabrese would have only been on the street for a few years before he died in 2012, Nick Calabrese wasn't that important. Outside of Marcello they were going to lose those guys anyway so how bad was it really?