Kansas City Mob Today

[Pogo The Clown]

3I’m supposed to believe pogo the clown over the fbi who investigates them and indicts them and says there is a KC mob. For me to take your word over The FBI I would have to be a clown

According to the Feds the KC family is long gone. So I don’t know what you are even talking about. A small time case from over a decade ago doesn’t change that. Notice that there hasn’t been any cases since nor were there any real cases in the 20 years previous to this small time case.


Pogo

[Newyorkempire]

What document is published by the Feds that says they are gone?

[KCMOb]

My man, this forum has a variety of search functions that are great if want to look into the recent history of the KC mob.

[KCMOb]

Which is non-existent.

[Laughmatics]

I'm not saying that there's still Kansas City LCN, but there were whole entire threads dedicated to the extinction of Buffalo, so I don't know.

[Wiseguy]

As Pogo said, there are a handful of made guys left in Kansas City. Less than half a dozen. There's no structure anymore. As the former Buffalo FBI SAC said a few years ago, "There is difference between individuals committing crimes and the Mafia." That's what we've seen in Kansas City as well. Yet some still can't figure out the distinction.

[TallGuy19]

While we're on the subject, has anyone ever heard of Eddie Carnoali from Leavenworth? I've always heard he's mobbed up, but I can't find much on him. He runs (or at least used to run) C&C Bonding Co.

[Ivan]

As Pogo said, there are a handful of made guys left in Kansas City. Less than half a dozen. There's no structure anymore. As the former Buffalo FBI SAC said a few years ago, "There is difference between individuals committing crimes and the Mafia." That's what we've seen in Kansas City as well. Yet some still can't figure out the distinction.

When is a family determined by the feds to be "nonviable" as they put it? When money stops flowing upward? (That would be my definition.)

[Wiseguy]

As Pogo said, there are a handful of made guys left in Kansas City. Less than half a dozen. There's no structure anymore. As the former Buffalo FBI SAC said a few years ago, "There is difference between individuals committing crimes and the Mafia." That's what we've seen in Kansas City as well. Yet some still can't figure out the distinction.

When is a family determined by the feds to be "nonviable" as they put it? When money stops flowing upward? (That would be my definition.)

While I wouldn't go as far as to assume the exact same criteria has been used by every SAC and their Washington superiors across the board, generally speaking from the government's standpoint the criteria is going to be RICO-based; i.e. once there is no longer a continuing pattern of racketeering in behalf of a criminal enterprise. One or the other doesn't seem to cut it. In other words, an LCN group that may technically have some semblance of a hierarchy but is basically inactive isn't recognized by the feds anymore than remnants of an LCN family engaging in crime on an individual basis.

[NickleCity]

As Pogo said, there are a handful of made guys left in Kansas City. Less than half a dozen. There's no structure anymore. As the former Buffalo FBI SAC said a few years ago, "There is difference between individuals committing crimes and the Mafia." That's what we've seen in Kansas City as well. Yet some still can't figure out the distinction.

When is a family determined by the feds to be "nonviable" as they put it? When money stops flowing upward? (That would be my definition.)

While I wouldn't go as far as to assume the exact same criteria has been used by every SAC and their Washington superiors across the board, generally speaking from the government's standpoint the criteria is going to be RICO-based; i.e. once there is no longer a continuing pattern of racketeering in behalf of a criminal enterprise. One or the other doesn't seem to cut it. In other words, an LCN group that may technically have some semblance of a hierarchy but is basically inactive isn't recognized by the feds anymore than remnants of an LCN family engaging in crime on an individual basis.

If the government uses a RICO based criteria for determining a viable crime family, you could make the case that the Buffalo crime family has ever been viable. Dan Herbeck at the Buffalo News wrote: “…law enforcement has never made a criminal racketeering case against leaders of the alleged Buffalo Mafia organization.” That is why he used the word alleged Buffalo mafia. You can prove it ever existed based on that definition.



Buffalo SAC Ahearn, you mentioned above, had this to say about the Todaro era: “We prosecuted several underlings of the family," Ahearn said, but added that they could not come up with evidence to make a broader racketeering
case that showed suspected leaders were directing criminal activity.”



Perhaps it is just very hard to prove a secret racketeering organization like the mafia exists… especially ones that are disciplined about not saying leadership names out loud and use hand signals instead. It has been written in several places that the Todaro’s were sticklers about this.

Or perhaps federal law enforcement just didn’t do a good enough job. Indeed some FBI agents imply the FBI leadership didn’t do enough to go after the “alleged” buffalo mob during the alleged “Todaro” era:



Another thought… could it be that the Feds have been trying to build a racketeering case against the Buffalo mob now, but just haven’t had enough evidence so they prosecuted the “alleged” mob in Buffalo with what they could prove. The Buffalo News writes: “Shortly after Bongiovanni’s arrest in the fall of 2019, federal agents raided Pharaoh's. They were executing a search warrant and looking for evidence of narcotics and racketeering violations, a prosecutor wrote in court papers.”


I know this is Buffalo material and a mod may move this to the Buffalo thread or the Graveyard… but since you and Pogo raise this line of reasoning in this thread I think it is important to give the full context of the Buffalo situation so one can decide if the racketeering criteria for a viable crime family is the best criteria to use.

[Newyorkempire]

As Pogo said, there are a handful of made guys left in Kansas City. Less than half a dozen. There's no structure anymore. As the former Buffalo FBI SAC said a few years ago, "There is difference between individuals committing crimes and the Mafia." That's what we've seen in Kansas City as well. Yet some still can't figure out the distinction.

When is a family determined by the feds to be "nonviable" as they put it? When money stops flowing upward? (That would be my definition.)

While I wouldn't go as far as to assume the exact same criteria has been used by every SAC and their Washington superiors across the board, generally speaking from the government's standpoint the criteria is going to be RICO-based; i.e. once there is no longer a continuing pattern of racketeering in behalf of a criminal enterprise. One or the other doesn't seem to cut it. In other words, an LCN group that may technically have some semblance of a hierarchy but is basically inactive isn't recognized by the feds anymore than remnants of an LCN family engaging in crime on an individual basis.

If the government uses a RICO based criteria for determining a viable crime family, you could make the case that the Buffalo crime family has ever been viable. Dan Herbeck at the Buffalo News wrote: “…law enforcement has never made a criminal racketeering case against leaders of the alleged Buffalo Mafia organization.” That is why he used the word alleged Buffalo mafia. You can prove it ever existed based on that definition.



Buffalo SAC Ahearn, you mentioned above, had this to say about the Todaro era: “We prosecuted several underlings of the family," Ahearn said, but added that they could not come up with evidence to make a broader racketeering
case that showed suspected leaders were directing criminal activity.”



Perhaps it is just very hard to prove a secret racketeering organization like the mafia exists… especially ones that are disciplined about not saying leadership names out loud and use hand signals instead. It has been written in several places that the Todaro’s were sticklers about this.

Or perhaps federal law enforcement just didn’t do a good enough job. Indeed some FBI agents imply the FBI leadership didn’t do enough to go after the “alleged” buffalo mob during the alleged “Todaro” era:



Another thought… could it be that the Feds have been trying to build a racketeering case against the Buffalo mob now, but just haven’t had enough evidence so they prosecuted the “alleged” mob in Buffalo with what they could prove. The Buffalo News writes: “Shortly after Bongiovanni’s arrest in the fall of 2019, federal agents raided Pharaoh's. They were executing a search warrant and looking for evidence of narcotics and racketeering violations, a prosecutor wrote in court papers.”


I know this is Buffalo material and a mod may move this to the Buffalo thread or the Graveyard… but since you and Pogo raise this line of reasoning in this thread I think it is important to give the full context of the Buffalo situation so one can decide if the racketeering criteria for a viable crime family is the best criteria to use.

As always Nickle, an elite poster in a league of your own. B. as well

[Wiseguy]

If the government uses a RICO based criteria for determining a viable crime family, you could make the case that the Buffalo crime family has ever been viable. Dan Herbeck at the Buffalo News wrote: “…law enforcement has never made a criminal racketeering case against leaders of the alleged Buffalo Mafia organization.” That is why he used the word alleged Buffalo mafia. You can prove it ever existed based on that definition.

That doesn't change the intelligence they have on the family, including its hierarchy and activity. In that respect, actual cases or what is proven in a court of law is almost beside the point. Especially when attrition, even more than indictments, has led to the demise of LCN families in the U.S.

[Newyorkempire]

Attrition has been beat to death. We already know it's effects. It's not the end all be all

[Wiseguy]

Attrition has been beat to death. We already know it's effects. It's not the end all be all

It's been the #1 killer of LCN families across the country, more than any other factor. And the reason its been beaten to death is precisely because people haven't understood its effects and continue to underestimate them.

[Newyorkempire]

Attrition has been beat to death. We already know it's effects. It's not the end all be all

It's been the #1 killer of LCN families across the country, more than any other factor. And the reason its been beaten to death is precisely because people haven't understood its effects and continue to underestimate them.

Still not the end all be all and how you're trying to use it as a pairing to say how the feds prove viability...in relation to indictments