sports betting

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jmack
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Re: sports betting

Post by jmack »

gohnjotti wrote: Sun Sep 08, 2024 11:22 pm I've always thought the main angle of sports betting (at least in the 21st century) was the credit, and then charging interest or eventually cannibalizing a debtor's business or assets. Although, perhaps I only have that perception because it's those incidents that get prosecuted more, and therefore receive more public attention. Is this true? Is sports betting on its own extremely profitable, or is the 'strings attached' regarding interest and credit that really generates income?
It’s still profitable if you know what you’re doing. A good book will net 7-10% of the total handle.

To the original question, taxes play a big part as well. I went on a heater 2 football seasons ago. I cashed out of betmgm for about 33k. Come tax time, it sucked. At that point I wish I was still betting with Sheep Berreta but he was indicted by then.
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Re: sports betting

Post by gohnjotti »

jmack wrote: Mon Sep 09, 2024 3:41 pm
gohnjotti wrote: Sun Sep 08, 2024 11:22 pm I've always thought the main angle of sports betting (at least in the 21st century) was the credit, and then charging interest or eventually cannibalizing a debtor's business or assets. Although, perhaps I only have that perception because it's those incidents that get prosecuted more, and therefore receive more public attention. Is this true? Is sports betting on its own extremely profitable, or is the 'strings attached' regarding interest and credit that really generates income?
It’s still profitable if you know what you’re doing. A good book will net 7-10% of the total handle.

To the original question, taxes play a big part as well. I went on a heater 2 football seasons ago. I cashed out of betmgm for about 33k. Come tax time, it sucked. At that point I wish I was still betting with Sheep Berreta but he was indicted by then.
Good point. In my country, we don't tax on gambling wins so I have never really considered that. And yeah, I 'spose the profit margins are obvious when you consider two even money lines at -110 each.
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Cheech
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Re: sports betting

Post by Cheech »

Many misconceptions on sports gambling. I know it intimately. The whole 50-50 on one game isnt real. Layoffs are a huge misconception. The vegas knows nonsense. The lines dont even come from vegas.
Huge money maker. Lost some of the small players to DK or FD but the big players who play all the time will never leave a local. No reason too.
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Re: sports betting

Post by jmack »

Cheech wrote: Tue Sep 10, 2024 1:43 pm Many misconceptions on sports gambling. I know it intimately. The whole 50-50 on one game isnt real. Layoffs are a huge misconception. The vegas knows nonsense. The lines dont even come from vegas.
Huge money maker. Lost some of the small players to DK or FD but the big players who play all the time will never leave a local. No reason too.
50/50 is the “ideal” scenario, hence line movement to encourage action on the opposing side. In practicality though, you are correct. Mathematically you don’t need even money on both sides. The -110 is the house edge. The more bets taken the greater likelihood of profit. For instance blackjack has a house edge of ~.5-2%. If you played infinite hands the house is guaranteed to win. Sports betting is no different. Some weeks the books get killed, most they don’t. Either way it’s the -110 that generates profit.
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Re: sports betting

Post by Cheech »

jmack wrote: Tue Sep 10, 2024 1:54 pm
Cheech wrote: Tue Sep 10, 2024 1:43 pm Many misconceptions on sports gambling. I know it intimately. The whole 50-50 on one game isnt real. Layoffs are a huge misconception. The vegas knows nonsense. The lines dont even come from vegas.
Huge money maker. Lost some of the small players to DK or FD but the big players who play all the time will never leave a local. No reason too.
50/50 is the “ideal” scenario, hence line movement to encourage action on the opposing side. In practicality though, you are correct. Mathematically you don’t need even money on both sides. The -110 is the house edge. The more bets taken the greater likelihood of profit. For instance blackjack has a house edge of ~.5-2%. If you played infinite hands the house is guaranteed to win. Sports betting is no different. Some weeks the books get killed, most they don’t. Either way it’s the -110 that generates profit.
You’ll never get 50-50 on one game consistently. The line movement as you know is generated based on money on what side. It moves based on risk. The Closing line is based on the market. Much like stocks. If you can beat the closing line consistently you can have an edge.
The 50-50 is long term where many people took it as one game. I dont want to be extremely heavy on one side but lets be honest. These bettors are losers. Last thing im doing is laying off AND paying my own vig when i do that.
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Re: sports betting

Post by Cheech »

The whole guy who cant pay gets sent to a loanshark is overblown. Does it happen? Sure. More than likely, no. @gohn
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Re: sports betting

Post by Stroccos »

Cheech wrote: Tue Sep 10, 2024 2:17 pm The whole guy who cant pay gets sent to a loanshark is overblown. Does it happen? Sure. More than likely, no. @gohn
probably strictly a NYC thing at this point if it does happen ,
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Re: sports betting

Post by Buster123 »

Stroccos wrote: Tue Sep 10, 2024 2:56 pm
Cheech wrote: Tue Sep 10, 2024 2:17 pm The whole guy who cant pay gets sent to a loanshark is overblown. Does it happen? Sure. More than likely, no. @gohn
probably strictly a NYC thing at this point if it does happen ,
It rarely happens, most books will just take a payment plan, and the only time there laying off is on Super Bowl or another big event
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Wiseguy
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Re: sports betting

Post by Wiseguy »

Buster123 wrote: Tue Sep 10, 2024 3:19 pm
Stroccos wrote: Tue Sep 10, 2024 2:56 pm
Cheech wrote: Tue Sep 10, 2024 2:17 pm The whole guy who cant pay gets sent to a loanshark is overblown. Does it happen? Sure. More than likely, no. @gohn
probably strictly a NYC thing at this point if it does happen ,
It rarely happens, most books will just take a payment plan
George Freselone touched on this in his book. He said that in the books and movies, when a bookie is owed money he sends out the leg-breakers. He said that, while this does happen occasionally, especially if the bookie thinks the player is trying to cheat him, if he doesn't have the money no amount of beating is going to get it. And if the bookie leans too hard, he runs the risk of the player running to the cops. His underlying point being, from what I recall, was a big part of the business was a bookie knowing his customer's limitations before and after he bets.
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Re: sports betting

Post by gohnjotti »

Cheech wrote: Tue Sep 10, 2024 2:17 pm The whole guy who cant pay gets sent to a loanshark is overblown. Does it happen? Sure. More than likely, no. @gohn
I'm not saying they're sent to a loanshark. But when problem gamblers call their bookie and place a bet on credit, and lose the bet, they sometimes won't have the money on payday. Especially if they make a bet to try and cover what they've already lost. And the vig is sometimes built into that arrangement. That's how people get indebted to bookies. And of course, people sometimes go to loansharks to pay back bookies on their own accord.
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Re: sports betting

Post by gohnjotti »

Stroccos wrote: Tue Sep 10, 2024 2:56 pm
Cheech wrote: Tue Sep 10, 2024 2:17 pm The whole guy who cant pay gets sent to a loanshark is overblown. Does it happen? Sure. More than likely, no. @gohn
probably strictly a NYC thing at this point if it does happen ,
I thought it was well-established that gambling and loansharking went hand-in-hand?

Here's a Philly example from underboss Mannone's sentencing last year.
https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/underbos ... ansharking
The wiretap evidence established that Mazzone financed high-interest loans to customers of the sportsbook who were unable to pay their debts, resulting in the collection of loans with interest rates as high as 264%. LCN members and associates made threatened debtors who did not pay with violence, including one threat to make a victim “disappear” for nonpayment on a loan.
And another one from Philly mobster Nick Caramandi, who speaks about it as if it's common practice rather than unique to his operation.
https://jerseymanmagazine.com/piece_of_the_action/

“There’s nothing better than shark money,” former mobster Nick Caramandi told me when I was interviewing him for a book about his life.

The Crow, as Caramandi was known, went on to explain the dynamics.

“Gamblers, serious gamblers, are degenerates,” he said. “They have to bet. Now a guy gets in debt to us. Let’s say he owes $10,000. He’s gotta pay that money or we don’t let him bet no more.”

So Caramandi would send the gambler to a loan shark—who was affiliated with the mob. The gambler would be loaned $10,000 which he used to pay off his gambling debt to The Crow. He would then be able to continue gambling.
In fact, it seems to be common practice up in Canada too.
https://www.yorkregion.com/news/crime/d ... effb7.html
“I felt like s—t,” he said. “But it got worse. The bookie introduced me to loan sharks, and within a year I owed $180,000 to a couple of different ones.”

He borrowed from loan sharks to pay bookies and bar owners, always believing he could make the money back somehow.

Soon, loan sharks were charging him 10 per cent interest per month — the going rate on the street known as “juice” — which began at $5,000 but eventually sailed up to $20,000. That interest adds up to 120 per cent a year.
What is clear is that Vaughan is witnessing unprecedented violence that at least one expert links to illegal gambling.

Antonio Nicaso, author and professor, says the ‘Ndrangheta, an organized crime group centred in Italy, has been buying up bars in Vaughan for this purpose.

He says 50 illegal gambling locations in Vaughan is a conservative estimate and their patrons are losing thousands and paying interest charges of up to 200 per cent per year.

“In Vaughan, this is a major issue. People are losing the shirts off their backs because of this kind of addiction,” he said. “It can be viewed as a victimless crime because the victim is willingly engaging. It’s an epidemic, and not only in Vaughan. It’s the new business for criminals.”

I'm not sure why it would be worth letting people bet on credit if there's not going to be at least some vig built-in when they miss payments?
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Re: sports betting

Post by gohnjotti »

gohnjotti wrote: Tue Sep 10, 2024 8:39 pm
Stroccos wrote: Tue Sep 10, 2024 2:56 pm
Cheech wrote: Tue Sep 10, 2024 2:17 pm The whole guy who cant pay gets sent to a loanshark is overblown. Does it happen? Sure. More than likely, no. @gohn
probably strictly a NYC thing at this point if it does happen ,
I thought it was well-established that gambling and loansharking went hand-in-hand?

Here's a Philly example from underboss Mannone's sentencing last year.
https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/underbos ... ansharking
The wiretap evidence established that Mazzone financed high-interest loans to customers of the sportsbook who were unable to pay their debts, resulting in the collection of loans with interest rates as high as 264%. LCN members and associates made threatened debtors who did not pay with violence, including one threat to make a victim “disappear” for nonpayment on a loan.
And another one from Philly mobster Nick Caramandi, who speaks about it as if it's common practice rather than unique to his operation.
https://jerseymanmagazine.com/piece_of_the_action/

“There’s nothing better than shark money,” former mobster Nick Caramandi told me when I was interviewing him for a book about his life.

The Crow, as Caramandi was known, went on to explain the dynamics.

“Gamblers, serious gamblers, are degenerates,” he said. “They have to bet. Now a guy gets in debt to us. Let’s say he owes $10,000. He’s gotta pay that money or we don’t let him bet no more.”

So Caramandi would send the gambler to a loan shark—who was affiliated with the mob. The gambler would be loaned $10,000 which he used to pay off his gambling debt to The Crow. He would then be able to continue gambling.
In fact, it seems to be common practice up in Canada too.
https://www.yorkregion.com/news/crime/d ... effb7.html
“I felt like s—t,” he said. “But it got worse. The bookie introduced me to loan sharks, and within a year I owed $180,000 to a couple of different ones.”

He borrowed from loan sharks to pay bookies and bar owners, always believing he could make the money back somehow.

Soon, loan sharks were charging him 10 per cent interest per month — the going rate on the street known as “juice” — which began at $5,000 but eventually sailed up to $20,000. That interest adds up to 120 per cent a year.
What is clear is that Vaughan is witnessing unprecedented violence that at least one expert links to illegal gambling.

Antonio Nicaso, author and professor, says the ‘Ndrangheta, an organized crime group centred in Italy, has been buying up bars in Vaughan for this purpose.

He says 50 illegal gambling locations in Vaughan is a conservative estimate and their patrons are losing thousands and paying interest charges of up to 200 per cent per year.

“In Vaughan, this is a major issue. People are losing the shirts off their backs because of this kind of addiction,” he said. “It can be viewed as a victimless crime because the victim is willingly engaging. It’s an epidemic, and not only in Vaughan. It’s the new business for criminals.”

I'm not sure why it would be worth letting people bet on credit if there's not going to be at least some vig built-in when they miss payments?
Another example from Nicodemo Scarfo. I'm getting all these from Google, not my own prior knowledge. That's why I said earlier that I thought it was common knowledge that gambling and loansharking go hand-in-hand.
https://www.motherjones.com/politics/20 ... nd-bookie/
The probe began in January 1999. The nuts and bolts of the case are pretty straightforward: A guy bets. A guy loses. A guy borrows money to pay off his debts. A guy pays 104 percent interest. Multiply that by a couple dozen guys and you’ve got a major book. All standard operating procedure in the underworld.
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Cheech
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Re: sports betting

Post by Cheech »

Look. You can pull out any books or court cases you want. Ive lived it. Its the exception not the rule. Believe what you will. If you cant pay the bookie is more than likely to work with you. He wants you to keep playing. Not get bogged down with a loan payment. And if the guy doesnt pay he gets labeled bad and no one takes his action. Of course you can find examples of court cases where a bettor lost and some guy beat him up over it or something violent but again thats the exception not the rule. We’re also talking sports gambling in general. You cited mafia cases which i get we are on a mafia forum. But most books are not mafia backed.
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Re: sports betting

Post by Cheech »

“I'm not sure why it would be worth letting people bet on credit if there's not going to be at least some vig built-in when they miss payments?”


Well, you wouldnt know and thats ok. Its not your expertise.
Luckily for you. Its mine.
Its all air. Its not like I put up 10k for a drug deal and got ripped off. If a guy loses 5k and doesnt have not only are you not gonna vig him youll prolly take less like 3k and still let him bet after you get the 3k.

Again. There are exceptions. If you beat me for 20k one week and the next lose 20k and try to have a story thats no good.

But normal every day interactions are mundane and youd actually more than likely take less than more. Its all air.


You can google your little heart out til the cows come home about Nicodemo Scarfo lol but reality is reality and that wont change no matter what you google or what you think. Youre an interloper and I dont mean that in a negative.
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Re: sports betting

Post by BobbyPazzo »

Cheech wrote: Wed Sep 11, 2024 4:11 am Look. You can pull out any books or court cases you want. Ive lived it. Its the exception not the rule. Believe what you will. If you cant pay the bookie is more than likely to work with you. He wants you to keep playing. Not get bogged down with a loan payment. And if the guy doesnt pay he gets labeled bad and no one takes his action. Of course you can find examples of court cases where a bettor lost and some guy beat him up over it or something violent but again thats the exception not the rule. We’re also talking sports gambling in general. You cited mafia cases which i get we are on a mafia forum. But most books are not mafia backed.
Whyyyy must they be hardheaded? Im comfortable saying that cheech has more knowledge in this area than 98.5 percent of the members on this board. Im no one but im no slouch either when it comes to the sports. People know im close with the guys who were getting 2 billy and change in action over 15 months…. Even if in a nightmare if you make fifteen to 20 percent profit off that figure the number is quite large. CHEEEEEEEECH ! You know the shit cugine. Hope all is well. I’ll pm you.
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