TMA: The Camorra's Influence on American Cosa Nostra

[Aristotle123]

Yes, I understand that but when you previously stated that about Sicilian Camorra cells: "They didn't lose their mafioso status and some of their families continued on in LCN"
I took it to mean that some Sicilian mafia members had started Camorra cells of their own despite retaining their mafioso status but that at some point when Mainlanders were joining only some of these Sicilian Camorra cells wanted to be part of what the FBI was now calling LCN
But now I think that "Some families continued on in LCN" means you are saying only some members of these families decided to continue on with LCN.

Now you bring up another point about how Sicilan Mafia members in Sicily can transfer to American mafia families but not members of Mainland groups
I've read at times that some of the Mainland Camorra guys were inducted into a Sicilian Mafia family or families. If so ,would that transfer ban also apply to them?

[Angelo Santino]

Yes, I understand that but when you previously stated that about Sicilian Camorra cells: "They didn't lose their mafioso status and some of their families continued on in LCN"
I took it to mean that some Sicilian mafia members had started Camorra cells of their own despite retaining their mafioso status but that at some point when Mainlanders were joining only some of these Sicilian Camorra cells wanted to be part of what the FBI was now calling LCN
But now I think that "Some families continued on in LCN" means you are saying only some members of these families decided to continue on with LCN.

Now you bring up another point about how Sicilan Mafia members in Sicily can transfer to American mafia families but not members of Mainland groups
I've read at times that some of the Mainland Camorra guys were inducted into a Sicilian Mafia family or families. If so ,would that transfer ban also apply to them?

The only Sicilian Camorra cell that we know of is is the Banana Society which was composed mainly of Sicilians from Trabia and Messina. This was likely a society created for the Sicilians by the Camorra. Mainlanders were not looking to join a Sicilian Camorra.

Just to reiterate: a camorrista joining the mafia isn't required to renounce his place as a camorrista and vice versa. When it comes to the American side, there are members from Sicilian families that have been involved 4-5 generations. When it comes to the Camorra, at some point it ceased to be an entity in the US, leaving an entire demograpic (calabrian/napolitan) without a home team. This demographic found a place in American Mafia. It was a natural occurrence more so than a planned one. In the 1900's, the Campanian demographic involved with criminal groups would have been camorrista, by the 1960's, this demographic was reflected inside the Genoveses, New England and the Gambinos. Some of these descendants, when interviewed, recall stories told about their grandparents involvement in the black hand or camorra. So yes, you had Napolitan and Calabrian families (lower case F) with a history of criminal involvement who would eventually become LCN members at some point later on. For instance, Aniello Prisco who was killed in the 1910's is an ancestor of the Genovese Priscos active today. It's not conspiratorial, who knows what extent the Priscos are aware of their family history.

[Aristotle123]

Would you include Chicago with the Genovese,New England,and Gambinos?

[Angelo Santino]

Would you include Chicago with the Genovese,New England,and Gambinos?

Them too. The Camorra fractured as a society and the Mafia was left to inherit the remnants, what they got was a nationally connected network of non-sicilian compaesani who were every bit as serious and disciplined about "the life" as their Sicilian-counterparts.

[Aristotle123]

What was the problem with the Napolitan ,Calabrese,Terra Di Lavoro,Barese camorra groups that kept them from continuing on as their own organizations?
There is much evidence that they were able to buy politicians and police corruption and were very good at it
And early on they were nervy enough to taunt and defy the police ,at least before Prohibition

[Angelo Santino]

What was the problem with the Napolitan ,Calabrese,Terra Di Lavoro,Barese camorra groups that kept them from continuing on as their own organizations?
There is much evidence that they were able to buy politicians and police corruption and were very good at it
And early on they were nervy enough to taunt and defy the police ,at least before Prohibition

You mean in the US? There's no source I can cite for an answer. The story has never been written. I have my working theories but I'll have to explain the situation on the ground first for my speculations to make sense. But essentially, the Mafia's operating system and culture was a better fit for 20th-century America than the Camorra's operating system and culture. That's all I can really say at this point.

[Aristotle123]

Yes , I'm talking about in the USA only

1.Would you say that certain Camorra clans continued to exist,if not as a national network such as the Mafia had,even after most other clans dissipated and some of their members joined the Mafia ?
2.Maybe into at least the 1960s or later?
3.Is that what seems to be happening lately to the Mafia in America?

[Aristotle123]

Would you think part of the reason was that the Camorra may be just a collection of individual clans with no defined ties or rules binding them to each other?
Or maybe that after the Mafia(Cosa Nostra) was exposed as Valachi described it that both the Mafia and the Camorra groups themselves could kiss a lot of their police and political corruption goodbye since that was exposed too?
And maybe the Camorra decides to move to more welcoming places like Canada or Australia,while the Mafia sticks here and goes into a steady decline?

Kind of like having to lay low or immigrate to America when Mussolini was after them.

[chin_gigante]

Would you think part of the reason was that the Camorra may be just a collection of individual clans with no defined ties or rules binding them to each other?

The (now defunct) camorra honoured society did have elaborate defined rules and structures, and the cells of this organisation that emerged in the US continued to operate with these ties and rules.

[Aristotle123]

Yes the cells had rules but were these cells ever as connected to each other as were the mafia families?

[motorfab]

Yes the cells had rules but were these cells ever as connected to each other as were the mafia families?

The Camorrist cells were definitely connected to each other, just as the Cosa Nostra borgate could be. We find well known names like Milano, Daniello, Filasto, Pedone, Sergi, Corbi, D'Urso, Racco, Musolino (and tons more) active across states like Virginia, Maryland, New York, New Jersey, California, Canada, and even Australia.

[Angelo Santino]

Yes the cells had rules but were these cells ever as connected to each other as were the mafia families?

The Camorrist cells were definitely connected to each other, just as the Cosa Nostra borgate could be. We find well known names like Milano, Daniello, Filasto, Pedone, Sergi, Corbi, D'Urso, Racco, Musolino (and tons more) active across states like Virginia, Maryland, New York, New Jersey, California, Canada, and even Australia.

100%.

All these early "black hand societies" (the ones that actually were, and not newspaper hype) were not unorganized ruffians with no reach beyond their area. This is what makes Italian societies interesting, they are all local branches of something larger. They all have their internal squabbles but that doesn't change anything. The Camorra was 3x more structured and intricate than the mafia's organization was. They had written by-laws for everything, books serving as part lore part camorra instruction manual were distributed to keep these groups in tandem with one another. Read my article 4 and you can read the book that the camorra used to replicate its groups in America. See for yourself.

When it comes to the Calabrians it is important to remember that their society was still evolving, on one hand the guys in America were the predecessors to those who started calling the camorra the 'ndrangheta decades later, on the other hand it was still early camorra-esque- they were bounded purely through the sect and criminality, the implementation of family bloodlines which is an 'ndrangheta cornerstone didn't come about until decades later, they were heavily involved in slavery and prostitution and many of them had STDs from their association with that, including Capone. And he's not the only one. I think more Camorra bosses died from STDs than bullets. This is a window into the Camorra/'ndrangheta before prostitution was steadily phased out and women took on a different role.

[Aristotle123]

Angelo Santino and Motorfab:
That's what I'd thought .And that's why its kind of mysterious how they unraveled as a connected national type network to the point that several of
them joined up with the mafia and others vanished.
That is,despite having maybe the later start in America than the mafia and the other self inflicted wounds because of bad choices.
Although I do believe some of these so called "black hand societies' were composed of mainly related,intermarried, and/or paesani members
But also,I'd always thought that some of the cells never went away,at least until maybe the 1960s or 1970s

[Angelo Santino]

Angelo Santino and Motorfab:
That's what I'd thought .And that's why its kind of mysterious how they unraveled as a connected national type network to the point that several of
them joined up with the mafia and others vanished.
That is,despite having maybe the later start in America than the mafia and the other self inflicted wounds because of bad choices.
Although I do believe some of these so called "black hand societies' were composed of mainly related,intermarried, and/or paesani members
But also,I'd always thought that some of the cells never went away,at least until maybe the 1960s or 1970s

You're right, some of them did indeed continue on well into the 80's. But I'm clocking two groups and one of them was subservient to the LCN. It wouldn't surprise me if there were others but I don't expect to find a hotbed. Most of these groups had their heyday in the 1900s-1920s. There's very little after the 1920s which the exception of Jersey that gives any indication that it was still going as strong as it was a decade prior. I'm referring to places scattered across the American northeast that were once major small cities like Fairmont, WV, Johnstown, PA, Youngstown, OH and so forth.

I don't think the camorra as a national society avoided scrutiny and continued on in the shadows. I think forcing people to join under the threat of harm or death is a bad business model and with upward mobility occurring in Italian communities in the 10s and 20s loosened their ability to inflict themselves like they did in Italy. Additionally, overt criminality is going to draw more attention than the more restrained mafia who more often than not attempts to blend in with the law rather than defy it. I just don't think the camorra was a good fit for 20th-century capitalistic America in how it was set up, in what was expected and how it functioned.

[DKellerman]

This connection is probably the single biggest lightbulb moment I've had concerning the formation of early LCN. Seeing the Camorra culture carry over into the more modern stuff is pretty cool. Seems like the whole Bergen crew acted like Cammorista. Really great episode guys