TMA: The Camorra's Influence on American Cosa Nostra

[Mr Parlapiano]

Hi guys,

I'm new to the Forum, but I've been reading and researching about the Mafia & Camorra for decades. I'm not an expert like you guys, but not a newbie. Discovered you guys through your YT Channel Mob Archeologists and I love and admire the amount of knowledge you have.

Thank you, Angelo, for your Camorra articles. I've always been convinced that Freemasons/Carbonari were very influential in Camorra/Mafia Codes, structure, rites. Especially the Carbonari, because during the Risorgimento, these guys were jailed for their political ideas and were put in the same prisons as any brigante.

A lot of them had a high social status and probably paid for protection before becoming idealogical leaders in jail. That's just my opinion, not 100% facts..

The fact that Camorristi distance themselves with this kind of Song …

We are not Carbonari
We are not Royalists
But we are Camorrists
And we f*ck this and that

... is normal… Their main goal is not an ideology or a Coup d'état … They are very pragmatic and opportunistic…

What's more interesting in this little song to me is the simple fact they are agnowledging the Carbonari Movement which is proof they mingled with them for a while before saying f**k these guys and their revolutionary BS ...

@Angelo. I have a question regarding the structure of The Camorra, some sources state that there are 3 degrees, but It really looks to me as if there are only 2 degrees : MAJOR (Camorrista) and MINOR (Picciotto + Giovinotto Onorati) … Do you really see a structural 3rd degree there? Or is it just the picciottti using the giovanotti onorati in their crews as "soldiers" ...

Thank You!

[Angelo Santino]

Hi guys,

I'm new to the Forum, but I've been reading and researching about the Mafia & Camorra for decades. I'm not an expert like you guys, but not a newbie. Discovered you guys through your YT Channel Mob Archeologists and I love and admire the amount of knowledge you have.

Thank you, Angelo, for your Camorra articles. I've always been convinced that Freemasons/Carbonari were very influential in Camorra/Mafia Codes, structure, rites. Especially the Carbonari, because during the Risorgimento, these guys were jailed for their political ideas and were put in the same prisons as any brigante.

A lot of them had a high social status and probably paid for protection before becoming idealogical leaders in jail. That's just my opinion, not 100% facts..

The fact that Camorristi distance themselves with this kind of Song …

We are not Carbonari
We are not Royalists
But we are Camorrists
And we f*ck this and that

... is normal… Their main goal is not an ideology or a Coup d'état … They are very pragmatic and opportunistic…

What's more interesting in this little song to me is the simple fact they are agnowledging the Carbonari Movement which is proof they mingled with them for a while before saying f**k these guys and their revolutionary BS ...

@Angelo. I have a question regarding the structure of The Camorra, some sources state that there are 3 degrees, but It really looks to me as if there are only 2 degrees : MAJOR (Camorrista) and MINOR (Picciotto + Giovinotto Onorati) … Do you really see a structural 3rd degree there? Or is it just the picciottti using the giovanotti onorati in their crews as "soldiers" ...

Thank You!

Salut. Thank you for joining this forum and supporting our podcast and supporting my articles. It's just the beginning.

The Major Society consisted of the grade/Dote of Camorristi and the Minor Society consisted of the grades/doti of Picciotti and G.O.' There was a formal process to go through all three grades. You can read about it in article 3 where I painstakingly tried to break it down.

What we see in 'ndrangheta is just an evolved form of it: the grades of G.O. up to Sgarrista are in the Minor and the Santisti up to whatever the latest grade exists are the Major. Does that make sense?

[Aristotle123]

How do you determine who brought who in?
And who followed whose rules,initiations,etc ?
The way most understand it is that the Sicilians brought in the others-Neapolitans,Calabrese,Barese,etc.
If the others got absorbed into the Sicilian mafia or cosa nostra what motivated Sicilians to accept them,and what motiovated Camorristi,etc to give up their own structure,rules,traditions,etc?

[Angelo Santino]

How do you determine who brought who in?
And who followed whose rules,initiations,etc ?
The way most understand it is that the Sicilians brought in the others-Neapolitans,Calabrese,Barese,etc.
If the others got absorbed into the Sicilian mafia or cosa nostra what motivated Sicilians to accept them,and what motiovated Camorristi,etc to give up their own structure,rules,traditions,etc?

1 We have both documented and circumstantial evidence. We know Masseria brought in Capone. We know when Milano joined Cleveland that Lonardo was boss so we assume he had to have signed off on it.
2 You join the Mafia, you adhere to Mafia rules.
3 That is true.
4 Combination of social and network expansion. Bringing in Calabrese and Nap leaders gave them access to different network, it's the same as the Mafia initiating a gang member or someone involved in a particular industry with the assumption that it'll benefit them. Second, the Camorristi didnt have to give up anything, they were free to carry on with their own society and we have documented evidence that they did, despite being Mafia members. When you look at the structure of what we call Camorra we see societies on top of societies, these are doti which require its own ceremony for each entry, they are not ranks in the mafia sense of boss, capo, soldier. So for the camorristi, joining another society (mafia) would be just another doti in the eyes of their own society. As Mafiosi, they remained members in good standing as long as they adhered to the rules which in most cases they did, in fact, ironically there's evidence that they were even more dogmatic about mafia rules than the Sicilians themselves.

[Aristotle123]

So The camorristi who got inducted into the mafia could have dual memberships?
But were mafia members offered the same privilege of joining camorra clans and thus have dual memberships?

If a camorra member stays a full fledged camorra member,he might decide he's better off not joining the mafia as a member ,but rather as an "associate" if that option was available?
Or maybe the camorrist doesn't become a mafia member but takes advantage of the mafia memberships of his close fellow camorra clan members who now have dual memberships??

[Angelo Santino]

So The camorristi who got inducted into the mafia could have dual memberships?
But were mafia members offered the same privilege of joining camorra clans and thus have dual memberships?

If a camorra member stays a full fledged camorra member,he might decide he's better off not joining the mafia as a member ,but rather as an "associate" if that option was available?
Or maybe the camorrist doesn't become a mafia member but takes advantage of the mafia memberships of his close fellow camorra clan members who now have dual memberships??

1 As long as what they did as camorristi didnt violate mafia norms.
2 There are instances of mafiosi joining camorra but with these cases and the cases of camorra joining mafia it was on an individual basis, this was not a merger between groups.
3/4 Yes and yes. Boiardo I think, NJ Gen Captain refused mafia membership for decades, finally gave in and joined in the 40s after most of his people had joined while he was in prison.

[Aristotle123]

Thanks for your quick responses

To be clear,a camorra member who respectfully declines mafia membership might still have the option of being an associate on record with a mafia family?
And if the camorra member who declines mafia membership has a close camorra ally with membership in a mafia family(dual membership) wouldn't that be an advantasgeous way to go,thus not being subject to a mafia boss giving him orders,etc?

[Angelo Santino]

Thanks for your quick responses

To be clear,a camorra member who respectfully declines mafia membership might still have the option of being an associate on record with a mafia family?
And if the camorra member who declines mafia membership has a close camorra ally with membership in a mafia family(dual membership) wouldn't that be an advantasgeous way to go,thus not being subject to a mafia boss giving him orders,etc?

If someone doesn't want to join the mafia they're not going to be forced into doing so. The relationships don't change.

The Mafia and the Camorra never viewed each other as rivals. They were not fighting over territory like bloods and crips nor were they trying to one up on each other. What happened between the Sicilians, Neapolitans and Calabrians in America is exactly the same thing that happened in Italy in the 1970's when these guys were all relocated to the north in the hopes of reforming them. We've never seen war in northern Italy between the Mafia or Camorra or 'Ndrangheta. Instead, they acknowledge each other, work together or separately when it's advantageous, but avoid open confrontation. As boring as it is, that's the honest truth. These members were pragmatic when it came to dealing with each other.

(Someone will bring up Navy Street and yes, that is the sole example of these groups at war but there was more nuance to it as well as history between these individuals. They were friends until they weren't and it should be noted that the Genovese absorbed the Campanian (Navy and Coney) demographic in NY).

When it came to joining the mafia, these camorra leaders were not ceremonied and then assigned to a decina and ordered to kick up a certain amount every week Soprano style. There's examples similar to this but that's not what the average mafioso experiences in mob life. Instead, joining the LCN opens one up to a wider international network. It also gives one a license to practice cosa nostra law ie be introduced as a member and also be allowed to represent oneself at sitdowns, something a nonmember isn't able to. It's largely a benefit to join, one doesn't lose their autonomy unless it's in direct violation of mafia norms, like pimping, for instance. But then the mafia would never seek out nor consider a pimp for membership so it's a problem they don't encounter.

The members brought in, while mainland, each had certain qualities and connections that made them be considered for membership. If they were complete ruffians they wouldn't have been proposed.

[johnny_scootch]

What examples are there of mafiosi joining the Camorra?

[Aristotle123]

Now when you say pimping,are you including guys who had businesses like strip bars,or hotels, or gay bars where there may have been prostitution going on?
And of course,Luciano himself was accused of prostitution?

[Angelo Santino]

What examples are there of mafiosi joining the Camorra?

The Banana Society of PA and OH, comprised of Sicilians from Mafia Families who apparently were their own camorra cell. They didn't lose their Mafioso status and some of their families continued on in LCN.

Now when you say pimping,are you including guys who had businesses like strip bars,or hotels, or gay bars where there may have been prostitution going on?
And of course,Luciano himself was accused of prostitution?

I meant pimping in the traditional sense of overseeing prostitutes, but to answer your question, that answer depended on the time, era, family and boss. It's like the drug ban, some adhered to it, others got around it by loaning or taxing neighborhood drug dealers rather than getting directly involved.

Yes, Luciano was suspected. I don't know the answer. I know he was enjoyed the women but I don't know if he was overseeing a prostitution ring. Someone else here might. Rick?

[Aristotle123]

RE: Banana Society Camorra Cell
When you say that:" They didn't losetheir Mafioso status and some of their familiess continued on in LCN"

Does that mean that some American Mafia families contunued on like some Camorra Cells as separate from LCN ?

And from that would it mean that the LCN was a completely new entity LCN composed of all or parts of some Mafia Families like Maranzano's ,Masseria's/Morello's combined with Mainlanders and Sicilians,who were mostly but not always members of Camorra groups?

[Antiliar]

Luciano wasn't directly involved in prostitution and didn't oversee it, but his men demanded a street tax from madams and brothels, and some of that money was probably kicked up.

To Aristotle123's question, no the LCN wasn't a new entity. "LCN" was and is a designation used by the FBI and is based on "Cosa Nostra," which just means "our thing." It's a euphemism for "Mafia," although the word "Mafia" isn't a word that's actually used by members. The term members used to use was "Fratellanza," meaning "brotherhood" or "fraternity." "Fratuzzi," meaning "little brothers," was also used in some places.

The LCN started bringing in mainland Italians perhaps as early as the 1910s. It was uncommon, but became more common during Prohibition.

[Angelo Santino]

RE: Banana Society Camorra Cell
When you say that:" They didn't losetheir Mafioso status and some of their familiess continued on in LCN"

Does that mean that some American Mafia families contunued on like some Camorra Cells as separate from LCN ?

And from that would it mean that the LCN was a completely new entity LCN composed of all or parts of some Mafia Families like Maranzano's ,Masseria's/Morello's combined with Mainlanders and Sicilians,who were mostly but not always members of Camorra groups?

Mafia/LCN/Fratellanza/Fratuzzi are the same thing. There was no "new" LCN organization created despite 100's of books saying so. The Mafia was always the Mafia and on American soil they began to recruit mainlanders. That's the summary at the end of the day from a purely Sicilian/Mafia vantage point. Scrape below the surface a bit and you'll find that these mainlanders had their own society before joining mafia, that's the story I'm covering. There was no merger between them nor a 'new' organization created. Members in Sicily and America could transfer their memberships between each other which happens to this day. This is not the case with the LCN and mainland groups.

[scagghiuni]

Luciano wasn't directly involved in prostitution and didn't oversee it, but his men demanded a street tax from madams and brothels, and some of that money was probably kicked up.

it makes sense, mafiosi usually are not directly involved in prostitution, even in Italy, but they demand street tax from pimps and brothels