John Pennisi Sighting / Sit Down News

[SonnyBlackstein]

The Underboss has always been the #2 spot right under the boss. We know rank doesn’t always reflected power but traditionally yes the Underboss would have more power than the Consigliere on most matters.

I understand the UB is the #2 position. What I did not believe, was it was a direct line of power. Ie Boss/UB/Consig.1, 2, 3.
I understood the Consig to be more adjacent to the UB, or at least not directly 'under' him.
His position was meant to be elected by the soldiers and appointed for life. So not a direct line or #3 position more a #2a position.
Does this make sense?

Yet Pennisi has it as a firm line of word. 1, 2, and 3.

This is surprising.

A consig is a counselor to the boss, that he would be 'subservient' to the UB does not make sense for the purpose of the position.

[johnny_scootch]

I understand the UB is the #2 position. What I did not believe, was it was a direct line of power. Ie Boss/UB/Consig.1, 2, 3.
I understood the Consig to be more adjacent to the UB, or at least not directly 'under' him.
His position was meant to be elected by the soldiers and appointed for life. So not a direct line or #3 position more a #2a position.
Does this make sense?

It does make sense but that’s an older understanding of the position. Obviously we know Consiglieres aren’t appointed for life or voted on by the soldiers but change with whatever way the wind is blowing in some families and while they still could serve as an advisor to their bosses with time their responsibilities have become watered down. Over the years with all these panels and acting positions and street boss garbage the meaning and true purpose of the position has been lost.
Bonanno described the position as an advisor to the boss but also an advocate for the soldiers. If a guy had a problem with his captain it was the consigliere who was supposed to represent him and straighten out the problem same if a guy had a problem with the family administration. Today you just don’t see that and guys get the spot not for their ability but for political reasons. This is how I see it at least and I’ll also mention the fact that each family might expect different things from their consigliere’s but in general that’s how I see the meaning of the position trending going from a 2a as you put it to a hard #3.

[KCMOb]

I'm sure the mob is like any other organization, in the sense that the operational flowchart doesn't necessarily represent who wields real, actual power and influence.

[SonnyBlackstein]

I see the meaning of the position trending going from a 2a as you put it to a hard #3.

Off the bat, always a pleasure, and always look forward to your input J.

Yes I obv agree with how the position has 'evolved'.

I would still take issue that even a modern consig is subservient, a hard #3, to the UB. My 2a conclusion.

What is an UB really apart from a glorified messenger/liaison? Look at Crea. After all the bullshit what power did he really have apart from a title? Nothing. Vic called the shots where he could, Matty did the rest. What 'decisions' did Crea make as UB? Nothing. I cannot see a situation where Joe D would would behind Crea giving out 'yes sir's' and 'no sir's'. Can you?
I know this is example specific, but I just dont see common situations where an UB has strong word over a Consig. When would this ever happen? Can you imagine an example of an UB telling a Consig "because Im telling you too!". I cant.

I just dont believe in the hard 1, 2, 3 set-up, given consideration of what a Consig, even in theory's job is, and in practice what an UB's job actually is.

Again, always appreciate your posts bud.

[SonnyBlackstein]

I'm sure the mob is like any other organization, in the sense that the operational flowchart doesn't necessarily represent who wields real, actual power and influence.

good post. But Im not talking situational eg Mannino. Im talking in general practice ie I see UB and Consig as a 2 and 2a vs 2 and hard 3.

[Little_Al1991]

I see the meaning of the position trending going from a 2a as you put it to a hard #3.

Off the bat, always a pleasure, and always look forward to your input J.

Yes I obv agree with how the position has 'evolved'.

I would still take issue that even a modern consig is subservient, a hard #3, to the UB. My 2a conclusion.

What is an UB really apart from a glorified messenger/liaison? Look at Crea. After all the bullshit what power did he really have apart from a title? Nothing. Vic called the shots where he could, Matty did the rest. What 'decisions' did Crea make as UB? Nothing. I cannot see a situation where Joe D would would behind Crea giving out 'yes sir's' and 'no sir's'. Can you?
I know this is example specific, but I just dont see common situations where an UB has strong word over a Consig. When would this ever happen? Can you imagine an example of an UB telling a Consig "because Im telling you too!". I cant.

I just dont believe in the hard 1, 2, 3 set-up, given consideration of what a Consig, even in theory's job is, and in practice what an UB's job actually is.

Again, always appreciate your posts bud.

According to Pennisi, Stevie was seen as the boss on the street even though Matty had the position. Crea ordered a hit on Carl, the German associate who stopped him from entering the club when the Bonanno’s stormed the club but surely Matty had to have given his okay for that

[SonnyBlackstein]

Stevie was seen as the boss on the street even though Matty had the position. Crea ordered a hit on Carl, the German associate who stopped him from entering the club when the Bonanno’s stormed the club but surely Matty had to have given his okay for that

An important point of context, Stevie had the most respect on the street, more-so than matty, but was never seen as boss. Big difference.
And Crea couldnt have 'ordered' a hit. He wouldve gotten matty's or Vic's ok. Again, small but huge difference.

[AntComello]

I thought someone said that Crea was viewed as the real boss even if he wasn’t that in name. Seemed like Crea was the one calling the shots and Matty just had the actual title.

[Brovelli]

I think Pennisis point was not that Crea physically had more power than Madonna but that Crea was seen as their leader by the members and other families. Madonna was/is jovial and fun and liked to play around, Crea was the type that when he’s around you’re conducting yourself appropriately etc whereas around Madonna you could let your guard down a bit more. That’s my understanding of the point he was making, Madonna was still acting boss and held that decision making power.

[Little_Al1991]

Stevie was seen as the boss on the street even though Matty had the position. Crea ordered a hit on Carl, the German associate who stopped him from entering the club when the Bonanno’s stormed the club but surely Matty had to have given his okay for that

An important point of context, Stevie had the most respect on the street, more-so than matty, but was never seen as boss. Big difference.
And Crea couldnt have 'ordered' a hit. He wouldve gotten matty's or Vic's ok. Again, small but huge difference.

Pennisi - “ "Stevie was very respected. Matty had shortcomings. We looked at Stevie as the boss. Matty was not. Matty was a junk dealer put in the acting slot by Vic because Vic wanted someone that he could control in the position."

True, Crea more than likely had to ask permission for the hit.

[SonnyBlackstein]

Pennisi - “ "Stevie was very respected. Matty had shortcomings. We looked at Stevie as the boss. Matty was not. Matty was a junk dealer put in the acting slot by Vic because Vic wanted someone that he could control in the position."

True, Crea more than likely had to ask permission for the hit.

Again I think this is a respect issue vs a power issue.
The guys couldve liked and respected, felt deserved the boss position more in Crea and saw Matty as a dealer, lackey etc but lackey or not Vic had the power and Matty was his lackey. So Vic was the boss, Matty was the acting and Crea had zero power over that, regardless of how much the guys liked him.

Just because the guys liked Crea more, doesnt mean anything in terms of who called the shots.

One point I find interesting is Pennisi speaks on Vic, Crea, DeSantis, Georgie Neck, Big John etc etc.
Anyone have an idea why John has NEVER (to my knowledge) spoken on Joe DiNapoli?
Guy's was the friggen Consig and Ive never seen John talk about him once.
Protecting him?

[Little_Al1991]

Pennisi - “ "Stevie was very respected. Matty had shortcomings. We looked at Stevie as the boss. Matty was not. Matty was a junk dealer put in the acting slot by Vic because Vic wanted someone that he could control in the position."

True, Crea more than likely had to ask permission for the hit.

Again I think this is a respect issue vs a power issue.
The guys couldve liked and respected, felt deserved the boss position more in Crea and saw Matty as a dealer, lackey etc but lackey or not Vic had the power and Matty was his lackey. So Vic was the boss, Matty was the acting and Crea had zero power over that, regardless of how much the guys liked him.

Just because the guys liked Crea more, doesnt mean anything in terms of who called the shots.

One point I find interesting is Pennisi speaks on Vic, Crea, DeSantis, Georgie Neck, Big John etc etc.
Anyone have an idea why John has NEVER (to my knowledge) spoken on Joe DiNapoli?
Guy's was the friggen Consig and Ive never seen John talk about him once.
Protecting him?

I agree. I don’t want to say that Crea was the brains behind the throne because Matty has been around since the 1950s and his ego also wouldn’t allow it.
John has mentioned dinapoli in relation to Big John and how he straightened him out and got him a Captain’s position. He also stated that DiNapoli told them to not do anything with the Bonanno family unless they knew they would win (this was after the social club incident)

[Brovelli]

Yes he has spoken a few times on Joe dinapoli. He said how he spoke in a long-winded roundabout way (to avoid bugs etc without saying anything directly). He also said about how he disapproved of the Columbos making guys in prison, made a comment about them making someone in a toilet as John had asked him if it was “a thing” that they made guys in prison. Joe dinapoli was the first person he was introduced to at his induction ceremony and I think he was also involved in the aftermath of the strip club altercation they had with Ralph balsamo although Crea was mainly involved in that. A lot of this goes back 3-4 years when he first started the podcast and did more coverage of his time in the life.

[OcSleeper]

Brief video says Desimone and Alfred Santorelli served on a two-man consigliere panel in 2017.
https://youtu.be/IFITutLrBF0?si=npucjIxJzBws7W7G

[Cheech]

Brief video says Desimone and Alfred Santorelli served on a two-man consigliere panel in 2017.
https://youtu.be/IFITutLrBF0?si=npucjIxJzBws7W7G

Two Tanglewood Boys