General Chicago Outfit Info Dumping Ground

[funkster]

I think the problem is that if people don’t see a rico indictment they think there’s nothing. That stuff is fewer and further between these days. I also honestly think the mafia isn’t as big a priority like it was in the 80s and 90s. People forget how crazy and bloody the 70s/80s/and early 90s was in the big mafia cities like NY and Chicago. Bodies dropping will get you a lot of attention.

[funkster]

Remember like 10-12 years ago when posters on these types of forums were saying that the outfit was dead and that Difronzo “shut it down”? .

There’s always so much more going on than we realise. The way I read this investigation is they were obviously going for something larger, but couldn’t quite hook any of the big fish. Seems to me that the guys higher up are very good at insulating and protecting themselves.

Scott was reporting five or six years back about how the FBI had a hard on for Vena. I wonder if this investigation was tied to that at all since it mentions Grand Avenue. Never got him either.

lol well that was inevitable.

[NorthBuffalo]

Not sure that anyone would really have a view that any mob family is 'thriving' in this day and age or growing (obviously all are in decline) - but its interesting to see these old school cases still playing out in 2024 in cities where the mob has been declared 'dead' for decades. That guys born in the 1980s are going into rackets like loansharking and illegal gambling like their forefathers born in the prior century. Also interesting to see how much is really going on in these suburbs outside of the cities - I didn't realize there were all of these Chicago suburbs where there seem to be a major concentration of first and second generation italians.

[Patrickgold]

Remember like 10-12 years ago when posters on these types of forums were saying that the outfit was dead and that Difronzo “shut it down”? .

There’s always so much more going on than we realise. The way I read this investigation is they were obviously going for something larger, but couldn’t quite hook any of the big fish. Seems to me that the guys higher up are very good at insulating and protecting themselves.

Scott was reporting five or six years back about how the FBI had a hard on for Vena. I wonder if this investigation was tied to that at all since it mentions Grand Avenue. Never got him either.

10-12 years ago? I'm still saying that (i.e. the Outfit is close to dead, though not the DiFronzo shutting anything down part). There are at most 16 confirmed made guys left, most of them inactive. And that's probably being generous considering a few of those (the ones only ID as made by the CPD) may not actually be. When looked at in hindsight the recent cases over the last 5 years basically seem to be interconnected gambling ones targeting the two crews/factions of what's left of the Outfit - Elmwood Park/Grand Avenue in the north and Cicero/26th Street in the south. There are few "big fish" left to hook. Andriacchi is close to dead. Marcello is doing life. Sarno will be lucky if he leaves prison alive. There's no real identifiable hierarchy to speak of other than law enforcement identifying what appears to be the most senior guy in each faction - Vena and DeLaurentis.

Forget about "Family Secrets 2." We won't see a case like that (which was a classic mopping up operation) again. And the last case of any significance was the Sarno case 15 years ago. When you look at the general trends over time, we're essentially seeing the exact same thing we've seen in other cities where the mob has died out. Dwindling membership of mostly old and inactive made guys, a breakdown in a formal LCN structure, increasingly descentralized criminal activity (usually bookmaking) being carried out more by descendants or former associates of deceased Outfit figures, otherwise legitimate relatives of past mob figures still employed in some union positions, etc.

Correct me if I’m wrong, were you the one that said that none of those gambling arrests were outfit connected bc it didn’t mention organized crime in the original indictment?

[Wiseguy]

Remember like 10-12 years ago when posters on these types of forums were saying that the outfit was dead and that Difronzo “shut it down”? .

There’s always so much more going on than we realise. The way I read this investigation is they were obviously going for something larger, but couldn’t quite hook any of the big fish. Seems to me that the guys higher up are very good at insulating and protecting themselves.

Scott was reporting five or six years back about how the FBI had a hard on for Vena. I wonder if this investigation was tied to that at all since it mentions Grand Avenue. Never got him either.

10-12 years ago? I'm still saying that (i.e. the Outfit is close to dead, though not the DiFronzo shutting anything down part). There are at most 16 confirmed made guys left, most of them inactive. And that's probably being generous considering a few of those (the ones only ID as made by the CPD) may not actually be. When looked at in hindsight the recent cases over the last 5 years basically seem to be interconnected gambling ones targeting the two crews/factions of what's left of the Outfit - Elmwood Park/Grand Avenue in the north and Cicero/26th Street in the south. There are few "big fish" left to hook. Andriacchi is close to dead. Marcello is doing life. Sarno will be lucky if he leaves prison alive. There's no real identifiable hierarchy to speak of other than law enforcement identifying what appears to be the most senior guy in each faction - Vena and DeLaurentis.

Forget about "Family Secrets 2." We won't see a case like that (which was a classic mopping up operation) again. And the last case of any significance was the Sarno case 15 years ago. When you look at the general trends over time, we're essentially seeing the exact same thing we've seen in other cities where the mob has died out. Dwindling membership of mostly old and inactive made guys, a breakdown in a formal LCN structure, increasingly descentralized criminal activity (usually bookmaking) being carried out more by descendants or former associates of deceased Outfit figures, otherwise legitimate relatives of past mob figures still employed in some union positions, etc.

Correct me if I’m wrong, were you the one that said that none of those gambling arrests were outfit connected bc it didn’t mention organized crime in the original indictment?

No, I questioned the strength of those connections and what "connected" actually means. For years on the forums, and this applies to Chicago more than anywhere else, the concept of "connected" gets abused.

People talk like there were multiple big cases, from a variety of investigations, demonstrating "a lot" of activity. While "a lot" of activity could be considered relative, I suppose, it seems the recent cases in question were born out of the same investigations as they often do. On the part of Elmwood Park/Grand Avenue, you had the Frontier case leading to the Cassano loansharking case (which also brought up the Nesbitt connection), as well as the Poeta case. On the part of Cicero/2th Street, you had Delgiudice case, and the Palaoin case leading to the Amabile case.

But even then, the devil is in the details. For example, what was the Delguidice connection other than one defendant hiring Donald Angelini Jr. as his attorney and one article mentioning "mob-connected" runners? What was Poeta's connection exactly? Amabile was the grandson of a deceased Outfit figure but was he simply a bookie working in the same underground orbit of mob gambling operations or there a stronger connection there?

In short, I question whether "a lot" was really going on and, as far as what was going on, the significance of the mob connection. People forget that as the remaining core of actual Outfit members die off, this all becomes increasingly moot. We'll still see corruption and criminal enterprises in Chicago but not what could be termed "the Outfit" anymore.

[Snakes]

Paloian owned the URL for DelGiudice's website. Paloian also paid money into Sarno's commissary account. I think you'd have to be pretty naive not to see a connection there. Nobody here is saying this is the 1956 Outfit or even that they are at the level of any of the NYC families

Due to the contributions of people participating in this thread, a lot of myths and untruths about the Chicago Outfit have been proven false or clarified in the past several years, so I think it's wasted breath to continue harping on the activity of the organization everyone knows is no longer strong, but still creates great interest when we do see things still popping up.

[Coloboy]

Paloian owned the URL for DelGiudice's website. Paloian also paid money into Sarno's commissary account. I think you'd have to be pretty naive not to see a connection there. Nobody here is saying this is the 1956 Outfit or even that they are at the level of any of the NYC families

Due to the contributions of people participating in this thread, a lot of myths and untruths about the Chicago Outfit have been proven false or clarified in the past several years, so I think it's wasted breath to continue harping on the activity of the organization everyone knows is no longer strong, but still creates great interest when we do see things still popping up.

I might argue that they have as much going on as the Colombos or the Bonannos, but that's an argument for a different day.

[Patrickgold]

Paloian owned the URL for DelGiudice's website. Paloian also paid money into Sarno's commissary account. I think you'd have to be pretty naive not to see a connection there. Nobody here is saying this is the 1956 Outfit or even that they are at the level of any of the NYC families

Due to the contributions of people participating in this thread, a lot of myths and untruths about the Chicago Outfit have been proven false or clarified in the past several years, so I think it's wasted breath to continue harping on the activity of the organization everyone knows is no longer strong, but still creates great interest when we do see things still popping up.

Right on. I don’t think there is anyone claiming that the Outfit is on the same level as it was in the 1980s. No LCN organization is at that level. What I will say is, I think the Outfit continues to run as an organization and have rackets that they have traditionally been involved in as the indictments have shown. I’m a little surprised a narcotics indictment has not come out linking some known associates and members to narcotics but believe there will be some in the future.

Like all people, even Outfit leaders get old and die. new members are made and step up. To think the outfit has not made any members since the official FBI list would be very short sighted in my opinion.

[Wiseguy]

Paloian owned the URL for DelGiudice's website. Paloian also paid money into Sarno's commissary account. I think you'd have to be pretty naive not to see a connection there. Nobody here is saying this is the 1956 Outfit or even that they are at the level of any of the NYC families

Due to the contributions of people participating in this thread, a lot of myths and untruths about the Chicago Outfit have been proven false or clarified in the past several years, so I think it's wasted breath to continue harping on the activity of the organization everyone knows is no longer strong, but still creates great interest when we do see things still popping up.

Nobody is saying anyone thinks the Outfit is where it was in the 1980's. Fortunately, we've moved beyond that on the forums. When it comes to present-day activity, I'm as interested as anyone. Interpreting that is the question. That said, thanks for clarifying the DelGiudice connection. Which goes to my point about these interconnected cases coming out of the same investigations.

Right on. I don’t think there is anyone claiming that the Outfit is on the same level as it was in the 1980s. No LCN organization is at that level. What I will say is, I think the Outfit continues to run as an organization and have rackets that they have traditionally been involved in as the indictments have shown. I’m a little surprised a narcotics indictment has not come out linking some known associates and members to narcotics but believe there will be some in the future.

Like all people, even Outfit leaders get old and die. new members are made and step up. To think the outfit has not made any members since the official FBI list would be very short sighted in my opinion.

I don't include theoretical members. But if a new member is positively identified, I'll be happy to add them to the list. Like I said, right now there are 16 at most. And just for context, other than Matassa, every Outfit member indicted since 2000 (11 in total) was between 2000-2010. I'm not sure why you're surprised there's been no indictments involving narcotics. You can look at the cases over the past 25+ years and see there has been very little drug activity in the Outfit.

[Snakes]

I understand where you are coming from, but I would be very surprised if they had not made anyone in the past 20 years. We have never gotten truly accurate membership lists from Chicago (understandable, considering only one member has testified) so not knowing members shouldn't be an indictment against viability -- at least not yet.

[Patrickgold]

Paloian owned the URL for DelGiudice's website. Paloian also paid money into Sarno's commissary account. I think you'd have to be pretty naive not to see a connection there. Nobody here is saying this is the 1956 Outfit or even that they are at the level of any of the NYC families

Due to the contributions of people participating in this thread, a lot of myths and untruths about the Chicago Outfit have been proven false or clarified in the past several years, so I think it's wasted breath to continue harping on the activity of the organization everyone knows is no longer strong, but still creates great interest when we do see things still popping up.

Nobody is saying anyone thinks the Outfit is where it was in the 1980's. Fortunately, we've moved beyond that on the forums. When it comes to present-day activity, I'm as interested as anyone. Interpreting that is the question. That said, thanks for clarifying the DelGiudice connection. Which goes to my point about these interconnected cases coming out of the same investigations.

Right on. I don’t think there is anyone claiming that the Outfit is on the same level as it was in the 1980s. No LCN organization is at that level. What I will say is, I think the Outfit continues to run as an organization and have rackets that they have traditionally been involved in as the indictments have shown. I’m a little surprised a narcotics indictment has not come out linking some known associates and members to narcotics but believe there will be some in the future.

Like all people, even Outfit leaders get old and die. new members are made and step up. To think the outfit has not made any members since the official FBI list would be very short sighted in my opinion.

I don't include theoretical members. But if a new member is positively identified, I'll be happy to add them to the list. Like I said, right now there are 16 at most. And just for context, other than Matassa, every Outfit member indicted since 2000 (11 in total) was between 2000-2010. I'm not sure why you're surprised there's been no indictments involving narcotics. You can look at the cases over the past 25+ years and see there has been very little drug activity in the Outfit.

The reason I’m surprised there has been no drug indictments bc there has many rumors that some members/associates are involved in the drug business, two restaurant owners that have been identified as outfit associates to name two.

[Wiseguy]

I understand where you are coming from, but I would be very surprised if they had not made anyone in the past 20 years. We have never gotten truly accurate membership lists from Chicago (understandable, considering only one member has testified) so not knowing members shouldn't be an indictment against viability -- at least not yet.

There are still ways to measure that so you come within a range one can feel reasonably sure about.

First, one can compare memberships with other families around the same timeframe, both within the Midwest region and nationally to get a working framework, i.e. there are families that Chicago will certainly be larger than while others it will certainly be smaller than.

Second, the official estimates for the Outfit during the 1980's and 1990's were fairly consistent, ranging from around 40-50 members. This included where members were actually listed by name in 1985, 1993, and 1999. While they likely didn't identify every member, as the FBI gathered more intel on all the families over that time, including the Outfit, it became less and less likely a significant amount of members managed to fly under the radar. Into the 2000's, and around the time of the Family Secrets case, we saw official estimates ranging from 25-30 members, including the FBI citing 28 members in 2007.

Third, one can do an audit of all identified members over a given time period. For example, the FBI reportedly released a list of 47 Outfit members to the local press back in 1999. I actually count 58 members (identified by one source or another) at that time. Between then and 2007, I count 23 members dying (or in Nick Calabrese's case, flipping), leaving 35. Then continuing to take them off the list from 2007 until the present, I count another 19, leaving 16.

Fourth, one can look at the cases over a given time period, both in terms of quantity and quality. As I mentioned above, 11 members have been indicted since 2000 (12 if you include Magnifichi's shoplifting busts, which I'm not going to). All but one were from 2000-2010. And there was some significant activity during that time, including the Centracchio bust in 2000, the Carusos kicked out of the Laborers in 2001, Spano and Inendino Cicero case in 2001, the Hired Truck case in 2004, Family Secrets in 2005, and the Sarno case in 2009. Not to mention the Jarrett, Chiaramonti and Zizzo hits. Compare that to the following years up to the present (2011-2024). That tells you something.

Finally, is it possible a member who was made 25 years ago, and hasn't died somewhere along the way, has somehow managed to avoid being identified by the authorities? I supposed it's possible, though highly unlikely at this point. And a significant amount of members virtually impossible. Have new members been made since then? Perhaps. In significant numbers to counter those dying off? Again, highly unlikely. When you look at the membership since then, the numbers are only going one way - consistently down. And fairly rapidly.

And I would add that coincides with the ongoing consolidation and streamlining of crews we've seen. In the mid-2000's, around 2005-2007, the authorities said the Outfit had consolidated from it's historical 7 crews to 4. And even at that point it was said to be run in "northern and southern sections." By 2011, one FBI agent said it was down to 2 or 3 crews, and that was over a decade ago. That doesn't sound like a bunch of new guys are being made.

[SonnyC]

Was he the guy collecting for Pete Difronzo or was it someone else? I forget. The guy in the photo with Pete fishing as i recall? A lot of this stuff gets hazy after awhile lol

That was Mickey Davis you’re thinking of. He was an associate of Pete DiFronzo and was sent to collect on a debt from RJ Serpico in MP. Davis then reached out to Gigi Rovito to have someone throw a “fucking thorough beating” on Serpico. Gigi got Paulie Cap, who of course got Georgie Brown, who was cooperating with the Feds.

Davis was probably another former street gang guy, like many of them now. He grew up in Logan Square as a tough guy so I suspect he was with the Palmer Square or Lawndale Gaylords, though I don’t know that for a fact.

Interesting. I've never heard his name associated with either. I can ask Joker, but those guys are notoriously closed mouthed when asked direct questions.

If you find anything out let me know.

Talked to Joker the other day. He never heard of Davis. I know a guy from L/A that I still talk to now and again, but I suspect I'll get the same answer.

[PolackTony]

Was he the guy collecting for Pete Difronzo or was it someone else? I forget. The guy in the photo with Pete fishing as i recall? A lot of this stuff gets hazy after awhile lol

That was Mickey Davis you’re thinking of. He was an associate of Pete DiFronzo and was sent to collect on a debt from RJ Serpico in MP. Davis then reached out to Gigi Rovito to have someone throw a “fucking thorough beating” on Serpico. Gigi got Paulie Cap, who of course got Georgie Brown, who was cooperating with the Feds.

Davis was probably another former street gang guy, like many of them now. He grew up in Logan Square as a tough guy so I suspect he was with the Palmer Square or Lawndale Gaylords, though I don’t know that for a fact.

Interesting. I've never heard his name associated with either. I can ask Joker, but those guys are notoriously closed mouthed when asked direct questions.

If you find anything out let me know.

Talked to Joker the other day. He never heard of Davis. I know a guy from L/A that I still talk to now and again, but I suspect I'll get the same answer.

Thanks for following up. Could be that he was just a tough guy from Logan Square but not a gangbanger.

[SonnyC]

Was he the guy collecting for Pete Difronzo or was it someone else? I forget. The guy in the photo with Pete fishing as i recall? A lot of this stuff gets hazy after awhile lol

That was Mickey Davis you’re thinking of. He was an associate of Pete DiFronzo and was sent to collect on a debt from RJ Serpico in MP. Davis then reached out to Gigi Rovito to have someone throw a “fucking thorough beating” on Serpico. Gigi got Paulie Cap, who of course got Georgie Brown, who was cooperating with the Feds.

Davis was probably another former street gang guy, like many of them now. He grew up in Logan Square as a tough guy so I suspect he was with the Palmer Square or Lawndale Gaylords, though I don’t know that for a fact.

Interesting. I've never heard his name associated with either. I can ask Joker, but those guys are notoriously closed mouthed when asked direct questions.

If you find anything out let me know.

Talked to Joker the other day. He never heard of Davis. I know a guy from L/A that I still talk to now and again, but I suspect I'll get the same answer.

Thanks for following up. Could be that he was just a tough guy from Logan Square but not a gangbanger.

Any idea how old he is?