New TMA Episode - Chicago late 80's/90's

[Proletarian187]

Albanians definitely share the vendetta tradition with sicilians and they STILL hold that tradition to this day. DO NOT mess with tribal albanians, even their women kill. No hyperbole! Extremely clanish culture just like Sicily so it gels pretty well.

[Proletarian187]

Never heard of Frank Erickson, definitely a swedish surname. Gotta look into him.

Ivan: Was going to Istria in the spring of 2020 but Covid killed that idea. Have been to Slovenia though, beautiful country. Pretty distinct difference from southern Balkans in culture, language and mannerisms. They fancy themselves more Italian and cultured than the rest of Ex Yugo for sure..

To paraphrase Genovese Capo Angelo Prisco's Gambino-rant: "They think who the fuck they are!" LOL

[PolackTony]

Lots of variations of Italian names on the coast of Dalmatia. A good friend of mine is Croatian and his name is Luca Baresic.. Must be italian originally. That migration would have gone both directions..

Yeah there's lots of overlap and blending between Italy and Croatia/Slovenia in Dalmatia, Istria, etc. due to shifting borders, proximity, and interbreeding.

These people, for example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Istrian_Italians

Or the big Croatian and Slovenian minorities in Trieste.

In the Mezzogiorno, there remain a couple of extant villages in Campobasso province, Molise, of descendants of ethnic Croats who fled the Ottoman invasion of Dalmatia centuries ago. These Slavomolisani, as they’re called today (the traditional term being Schiavoni, which just means “Slavs”), are an officially recognized ethnic-linguistic minority in Molise. The paternal grandparents of Chicago member Pudgy Matassa were from two of these comuni, and thus were presumably of Slavomolisano heritage, though I don’t know if they still spoke the language themselves. The communities, as I understand it, identify as Italians of Slavic origin, making them a bit different than the Arbereshe, who historically identified themselves more as “Italian Albanians”. I’m not aware that they have had any substantive ties to Croatia in centuries either.

As I have noted before, there is a long history of close interaction between Italians and Croatians in the Armour Square neighborhood on Chicago’s Southside, unsurprising given some of the cultural ties between Italy and Dalmatia as well as their shared Catholicism. Lots of intermarriages there over the years and it isn’t unusual to see buildings there with Italian and Croatian (or, Sicilian and Croatian) flags hanging on the stoop together. There were guys like Richie Mara (Marasovich, presumably used “Mara” to sound Italian) and Mike Condic from that neighborhood.

[PolackTony]

Phil Abramo of the DeCavalcantes is allegedly a Jewish Italian and his surname definitely suggests it but I'm not sure it's been confirmed.

There were many ethnic Albanians (Arbereshe) from Italy who were made in Sicily and the US. Nicolo Schiro the early Bonanno boss is the best example but I've found a number of made members from comuni like Piana dei Greci, Palazzo Adriano, and other interior Arberesh colonies who had Albanian heritage. Since these guys grew up in Sicily or had families who were geographically and culturally Sicilian I figure they were welcomed in but it raises questions as to when this was first allowed and what kind of issues it presented since the mafia is fundamentally conservative and elements within it always resist change, especially on ethnic grounds. Should say too that although they shared a cultural affinity with other Sicilians, these Arberesh communities also maintained many Albanian cultural practices that are still present in those comuni today.

You might recall that we’ve previously discussed the La Gattutas of Mezzojuso (they had people in both NYC and Chicago). While Mezzojuso is an Arbereshe comune, it is believed that the La Gattuta surname was of Sephardic Jewish origin, with the progenitors fleeing Spain for Sicily during Spanish rule around 1500 and subsequently converting. Now, presumably only a small, probably tiny, if at all, proportion of the ancestry of any recent La Gattutas would actually be Jewish.

For Abramo, he also had a degree in accounting from Pace University, so….

Seriously though, I haven’t looked into his ancestry myself. Abramo itself is not a terribly uncommon surname in Eastern Sicily. Supposedly it derives from a noble family in the Middle Ages, the Di Brama. If there is any Jewish origin to it than I’d think it’s so far back as to be nothing more than an historical curiosity, if this is the case.

[PolackTony]

As a follow-up to Abramo, it is not a surname that I’ve seen listed as one adopted by Jewish convertiti in Sicily (funny enough that names like Accardo and Aiello are, however), though it was used by some Jews prior to the 1492 edict whereby all of the Jews in the Spanish empire were forced to convert or flee. There were sizable Jewish communities in cities like Palermo and Messina, and documented Jewish inhabitants in many of the comuni that we would be interested in, prior to the edict. The great majority of Sicily’s Jews were expelled, resettling in Mainland Italy or the Balkans (also a major destination for expelled Sephardim from Iberia; many of those who went to Mainland Italy were also later driven out and fled to the Balkans, Anatolia, and the Levant). Those that remained converted to Catholicism and received new surnames upon baptism.

This page has a useful list of documented cognomi adopted by the convertiti. Note that this does not indicate that all or even most of the people with some of these surnames have any ties to convertito families (many of them are not specifically convertito surnames), and even if they did, again, anyone today from one of those lineages could well have zero “Jewish ancestry” genetically at this point.

https://www.italian-family-history.com/ ... cilia.html

[Moscone65]

I mean, after a long enough time you just gotta let a jew or an albanian be an italian right? Haha.. There's an active Genovese called Albanese for example.

After all, a lot of sicilians probably have moorish, arab and maybe even ottoman (turkish) blood in them if they took a DNA test right?

Some Barese mobsters probably have croatian/proto yugoslavian heritage due to the Dalmatian sea connection. It's a two hour boat ride to Croatia from Bari. My wife is from southern Bosnia so I travel the south Balcans quite a lot. Lots of variations of Italian names on the coast of Dalmatia. A good friend of mine is Croatian and his name is Luca Baresic.. Must be italian originally. That migration would have gone both directions..

Italians, particularly southern italians have been mixing for thousands of years; Romans, spanish, moors, greeks, albanians, proto illyrian tribes, the normans, french.... if your family had been in italy for 300+ years, and you have an italian last name, then your italian.

[Ivan]

Ivan: Was going to Istria in the spring of 2020 but Covid killed that idea. Have been to Slovenia though, beautiful country. Pretty distinct difference from southern Balkans in culture, language and mannerisms. They fancy themselves more Italian and cultured than the rest of Ex Yugo for sure..

Every picture I've seen of Croatia looks so beautiful it's kind of ridiculous, lol. My maternal grandfather's family is Croatian (got to American in like 1910) and my first name is an attempt by my parents to honor this. I thought about getting a digital nomad visa there since I'm self employed and work online, and use it as a base to explore/experience Europe for like six months.

You mentioned Sicilian genetics -- Wikipedia's coverage of this in the link below is decent. The North African contribution, while definitely not nothing, is often exaggerated. (Sicilians aren't "half black" or whatever or even part Subsaharan at all except for maybe infinitesimal trace ancestry in the Arab/Berber parts of their ancestry.) More interesting to me than that though is the substantial Norman contribution around Palermo.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sicilians#Genetics

Also like the genetic cluster diagram there, showing that Italians at the genetic level are basically the same people but gradually become more different as you head from north to south, while the Sardinians are totally different as they are basically leftover Early European Farmers who got Latinized but never replaced, and are of a stock that predates the Indo-Europeans who would evolve into today's Latins by several millennia.

I wouldn't expect there to be a bunch of Swedes involved in rackets. We're mostly known as very hard working honest people but where there is poverty there will be crime. And boy were the Swedes who emigrated poor..

For an entertaining depiction of a Swedish immigrant criminal, check out the performance by Peter Stormare in the movie Fargo if you haven't seen it already.

[CornerBoy]

there are sicilian jews. i know one w last name corso.

[SonnyC]

Good episode, I enjoyed it. Would love to know who else was made in the '88 and '89 ceremonies. Louie Marino? I assume Chiramonti was among that group as well.

[Snakes]

Good episode, I enjoyed it. Would love to know who else was made in the '88 and '89 ceremonies. Louie Marino? I assume Chiramonti was among that group as well.

I think we know all of '88:

Pete DiFronzo, Jim DiForti, Rudy Fratto, Scarpelli, Chiaramonti

DeLaurentis is the only one we know was made in '89 at the Como Inn. The source also said Matassa was made there, but we know that is incorrect as according to Nick C, Matassa was made in '83 with him.

[Angelo Santino]

Part 2 drops this sunday at 6pm. Sit back and strap in, it's 4.5 hours long.

I won't be around for it, would anyone mind being a mod for the chat, just in case someone starts spamming porn or racial slurs which could get us yeeted? If not, I'll have to move it to Monday.

[Antiliar]

Good episode, I enjoyed it. Would love to know who else was made in the '88 and '89 ceremonies. Louie Marino? I assume Chiramonti was among that group as well.

Since Marino was at the Spilotro killing he may have been made before June 1986. It's likely that everyone present was made since it was supposed to be an initiation.

[Angelo Santino]

And we're live. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymILLGfNDsg

[Proletarian187]

Thanks for the show last night! Didn't see the last 45 minutes unfortunately, did you guys touch on DiFronzo's alleged CI status?

[Snakes]

Thanks for the show last night! Didn't see the last 45 minutes unfortunately, did you guys touch on DiFronzo's alleged CI status?

We didn't, but there's just nothing out there definitive enough from our standpoint to address it, at least IMO.