Camorristi and Vito Genovese

[AG777]

What was the relationship between the Paretti brothers who were camorristi and Vito Genovese? Is it true Genovese was one of the last people to visit Tony Paretti before he was executed. He was elotrocuted in 1927. (I am getting this info from that site gang rule)

[DPG]

Its also in Mike Dash's book

[Antiliar]

We don't know their relationship, but Vito was one of the last people to visit Paretti before he was executed.

[AG777]

So if you had to take a guess, what do you believe these two men discussed during the visit?

[DPG]

Vito helping Camorristi into a Sicilian dominated underworld my guess I mean if there is no other known connection what else could they be talking about? If Vito had some family connection that would warrent a visit the guys wouldve found it by now. Underworld politics only thing I could figure.

[DPG]

Or maybe they were talking about oven cleaner

[Antiliar]

So if you had to take a guess, what do you believe these two men discussed during the visit?

Could have been info related to the Camorra, their families, and Paretti's impending death.

[DPG]

What is Vito's actual position among the crowd at this time? He is around 30 at this time and most accounts have him tight with Luciano and the in crowd but that's all seculation. If he is though maybe Paretti wanted to see someone from the mainland with the best future ahead of him and considered Vito it.

[Antiliar]

What is Vito's actual position among the crowd at this time? He is around 30 at this time and most accounts have him tight with Luciano and the in crowd but that's all seculation. If he is though maybe Paretti wanted to see someone from the mainland with the best future ahead of him and considered Vito it.

Is actual position at that time is unknown. Lennert, Dave C and Steve Turner wrote an in-depth article about the early Vito Genovese in Informer Journal. It's a great read and I suggest everyone get a copy.

http://informer-journal.blogspot.com/20 ... ovese.html

It's only a $5 download and it's worth it.

[OlBlueEyesClub]

Gonna download that tomorrow once I can put some money into my account. I'd imagine that last meeting had to do with Vito ushering in NY Camorristi into American LCN. And Vito being Neopolitan and his closeness to Luciano at the time, that perhaps he couldve been the most likely man to do it. Do you guys think those last Camorristi back during those days knew that the NY Camorra was towards its way to being over and completely losing its foothold in the Eastern part of the States? Thus they very well may have sought out a way to be engulfed into the American Mafia so their future criminal generations could come to NY and be able to earn through crime without any reprecussion? If so, my bet would be the combo had to be something like that.

[DPG]

Is there ever been a definant connection of Vito and Luciano at this point? The only person I've seen positive evidence of connection to pre 1929 Luciano is Legs Diamond(Shapiro also in the lineu) and i guess Lansky.

[Angelo Santino]

I concur with Antiliar, Genovese's connections are razor thin on paper. I'm not going to go into a diatribe about it but i doubt he was a member. Associations are different. In NYC, Mulberry to E 116 to downtown Brooklyn (Navy St) to Red Hook east to Williamsburgh and up to Long Island City existed a non-Sicilian network of mainland Italians. In the context of their criminal subculture, they mingled. By 1920 everyone was speaking standardized Italian as well as English and they were expanding their connections as individuals. The "Navy Street Camorra" has been blown out of proportion. Only 3 or 4 patrons of the Navy Street Saloon were actual camorristi, but inside the saloon contains a smorgus board of italian criminals from the casserta region. It was not an organization and barely even a crew, just a location for criminals to mingle over scores. Many were involved in small time cocaine deals. From what has come out of court testimony, there was no leadership, no kickups and rarely any orders passed. And when they were it was to willing stone criminals with a "I don't give a fuck" mentality who'd slit their mother's throat for 50c. This nucleus of Napolitan's contains various links to Capone, Nitti, Genovese but there's no evidence that it went beyond association. Take someone like Ricca, he had a cousin who Navy Street tried to strong arm and the cousin informed them of the reality of the situation and within a few months their E Harlem ventures went bust. This cousin wasn't a member but a mover and shaker in the italian business community. I wish there was more but that's all we know, until more information comes out we'll have to conclude it as a grey area. It wasn't a Boss, under, soldier type of arrangement.

A second part of this is that when Genovese went back to Italy, he was in the Naples region and allegedly involved in the black market there. But there is no evidence of any camorrista connections that I've seen and it makes sense because it died out in Naples in the 1910 and the countryside remnants were swallowed up by Mussolini in the 20's. One would think if Genovese was a camorrista he would have ushered in a Renaissance or at least tried to.

I honestly think it was a matter of compaesanismo with other mainlanders who's approach to the LCN/Mafia/whatever is different from the Sicilian-linked members who view "their" tradition through different lenses. And during the 1930's, Genovese was the highest ranking Napoletan' in NYC, when Luciano was arrested in 1936, Genovese was the ultimate authority on the street for most of 1936-7. But there's no existing evidence that he ever was involved in "converting" camorristi into Mafiosi. In fact there's very little existing evidence of it outside of 3 or 4 confirmations nationwide of non-italians with speculative ties becoming members.

Earliest links to Genovese and Luciano come from Gentile who claims they were both captains in the late 1920's. Luciano was allegedly made in 1919 and Genovese in the early 20's. Both were active in lower Manhattan, Gen more on Thompson and Luc more on the LES around 13th. That area was a hotbed outside of Little Italy's Elizabeth in the 200 block for mafia activity. All the families were represented in that area. Had D'Aquila been accepting members, Luciano might have went with the Gambinos as he already roomed with Joe Biondo who would become Consig.

[The Greek]

What is Vito's actual position among the crowd at this time? He is around 30 at this time and most accounts have him tight with Luciano and the in crowd but that's all seculation. If he is though maybe Paretti wanted to see someone from the mainland with the best future ahead of him and considered Vito it.

Is actual position at that time is unknown. Lennert, Dave C and Steve Turner wrote an in-depth article about the early Vito Genovese in Informer Journal. It's a great read and I suggest everyone get a copy.

http://informer-journal.blogspot.com/20 ... ovese.html

It's only a $5 download and it's worth it.

It's a great article with a lot of fascinating info. The possibility that Paul Siciliano was a Masseria capo in Queens with Luciano, Costello and Genovese as part of his crew is really interesting. Makes a lot of sense that Siciliano was a mentor to Genovese. I think it said in there they were born a mile apart in Italy.

[maxiestern11]

I concur with Antiliar, Genovese's connections are razor thin on paper. I'm not going to go into a diatribe about it but i doubt he was a member. Associations are different. In NYC, Mulberry to E 116 to downtown Brooklyn (Navy St) to Red Hook east to Williamsburgh and up to Long Island City existed a non-Sicilian network of mainland Italians. In the context of their criminal subculture, they mingled. By 1920 everyone was speaking standardized Italian as well as English and they were expanding their connections as individuals. The "Navy Street Camorra" has been blown out of proportion. Only 3 or 4 patrons of the Navy Street Saloon were actual camorristi, but inside the saloon contains a smorgus board of italian criminals from the casserta region. It was not an organization and barely even a crew, just a location for criminals to mingle over scores. Many were involved in small time cocaine deals. From what has come out of court testimony, there was no leadership, no kickups and rarely any orders passed. And when they were it was to willing stone criminals with a "I don't give a fuck" mentality who'd slit their mother's throat for 50c. This nucleus of Napolitan's contains various links to Capone, Nitti, Genovese but there's no evidence that it went beyond association. Take someone like Ricca, he had a cousin who Navy Street tried to strong arm and the cousin informed them of the reality of the situation and within a few months their E Harlem ventures went bust. This cousin wasn't a member but a mover and shaker in the italian business community. I wish there was more but that's all we know, until more information comes out we'll have to conclude it as a grey area. It wasn't a Boss, under, soldier type of arrangement.

A second part of this is that when Genovese went back to Italy, he was in the Naples region and allegedly involved in the black market there. But there is no evidence of any camorrista connections that I've seen and it makes sense because it died out in Naples in the 1910 and the countryside remnants were swallowed up by Mussolini in the 20's. One would think if Genovese was a camorrista he would have ushered in a Renaissance or at least tried to.

I honestly think it was a matter of compaesanismo with other mainlanders who's approach to the LCN/Mafia/whatever is different from the Sicilian-linked members who view "their" tradition through different lenses. And during the 1930's, Genovese was the highest ranking Napoletan' in NYC, when Luciano was arrested in 1936, Genovese was the ultimate authority on the street for most of 1936-7. But there's no existing evidence that he ever was involved in "converting" camorristi into Mafiosi. In fact there's very little existing evidence of it outside of 3 or 4 confirmations nationwide of non-italians with speculative ties becoming members.

Earliest links to Genovese and Luciano come from Gentile who claims they were both captains in the late 1920's. Luciano was allegedly made in 1919 and Genovese in the early 20's. Both were active in lower Manhattan, Gen more on Thompson and Luc more on the LES around 13th. That area was a hotbed outside of Little Italy's Elizabeth in the 200 block for mafia activity. All the families were represented in that area. Had D'Aquila been accepting members, Luciano might have went with the Gambinos as he already roomed with Joe Biondo who would become Consig.

That was one of the best explanations of Napolitano connections and the Camorra in early America I’ve scene. My compliments!