Project Otremens Recordings

[NickleCity]

And if Joe Violi was more aligned/a proposed member/or made in the Bonanno family I'd have to think he was speaking about Carfagna being made with the Bonanno's, right? The more we learn the more we understand we don't know.

[antimafia]

…snip…
Stephen Metelsky seems to think or know that Joey Violi was affiliated with the Bonannos. Screencaps from Metelsky’s Mob Museum presentation in March 2021:

…Snip…

Thanks for bringing this up about Metelsky’s graphics. I’m wondering what people think about this.
1. Is he saying that he believes Joe Violi was made or proposed to be made into the Bonnano family?

I think that because Joey Violi and Vincenzo Morena were discussing whether Carfagna would be a good candidate to be made, we are all now fairly confident that Violi was made by September 2016 but we still aren't exactly sure whether he was initiated into the Buffalo Family or Bonanno Family. I heavily lean toward Violi being made by Buffalo; otherwise, the USAO EDNY release (https://www.justice.gov/usao-edny/pr/me ... s-arrested) would have mentioned that of the nine organized-crime members and associates arrested in Canada, at least one member or associate -- without having to name this individual -- was affiliated with the Bonanno Family.

We don't know what Metelsky is saying about Joey Violi's being aligned with the Bonannos. Metelsky's next two instalments in his currently proposed three-instalment series might answer all of your questions, which most posters have too. He could be saying that both Joey and Dom Violi had formal connections not only with the U.S.-based Buffalo Family but also with the Bonanno Family. Metelsky could be alluding to the "[p]lans for Montreal, Quebec."

2. If so, how does that square with the comment that Violi wanted to stay put? See below:

[my graphic was here -- I've snipped it]

I wonder what exactly stay put means in this sense. Does it mean he doesn't want to be made? Or would he rather stay put within Buffalo's influence and be made with them? Both Dom and Joe Violi were present at the police informants induction which could imply he was made with Buffalo by that time.

I think that Joey Violi was merely expressing out loud the pros and cons of joining either the Buffalo Family or the Bonanno Family -- recall that on the Luppino tapes from the 1960s, Violi's father Paolo was recorded as saying the following per †Pierre de Champlain's 2017 book (but also in his 1986 book):

If I was to know that [Bill] Bonanno was coming up again, I would tell him what a dishonest man he is^53. [following this, perhaps not immediately after, Violi said] I am telling you that in Montreal we will be alone by ourselves^66.

What I find interesting is that Joey Violi's having a choice as to which American LCN Family he wanted to be inducted in may show that Canadians involved in Italian organized crime don't experience the pressure that their American counterparts face when asked to be made into a family with which they are on record -- I have more to say about what being "on record" means in Canada but I won't digress here. Anna Sergi's "Mafia Borderland" article indicates that Rocco Luppino was the one who likely asked son Cece about the latter's interest in being made -- at the very least, Cece gave his answer to his father (per the below excerpt from Sergi's article).

J Violi stated that Cece Luppino was asked if he wanted to be involved (be made), Cece told his dad if he could make money then he would be involved, if no money than he doesn't want to be involved; that there are too many headaches. J Violi stated that Cece told his father he watched his father struggle for 30 years, and that Cece does not want to struggle for 30 years; and if he does have to then he doesn't want it.^28

3. Like Chin I took this that Joe Violi did not want to become a Bonnano member and wanted to stay put in the the Buffalo sphere, but this graphic definitely complicates that take. Any ideas on how to square the Metelsky’s graphic with Violi’s words and the fact that we don’t have the entire context and complete conversation?

Again, Metelsky's next two instalments might answer this question too.

4. I wonder why Joe Violi would have considered joining the Bonannos if his brother and uncles were with Buffalo, was his relationship with Morena that strong? I guess he could have been working a lot with Bonanno associates and members.

I don't mind sharing now some research I've conducted about the ties that Violi brothers Domenico and Joey have to Tony Mucci. Having constructed a basic family tree for Joey Violi, I know that his children are Facebook friends with Mucci. I have always wondered about the Michel Mucci (first name was spelled differently, depending on the newspaper reporting at the time) who was charged with the Violi brothers in the 1990s for drug trafficking; more recently, while constructing a family tree for Mucci, I determined that his brother Michele is likely the person charged along with the Violi brothers.

Those following along know that I've discovered that Paolo Violi and wife Grazia Luppino were witnesses to the Montreal wedding of Francesco Arcadi and Agata Sicari in the 1970s, a wedding that the Violi brothers might have attended, as opposed to some of their first cousins in Montreal who were too young to attend. The Quebeckers who were paying Domenico Violi taxes last decade for contraband tobacco had familial ties to individuals aligned with Frank Cotroni Sr. in at least the early 1990s. So I'm fairly confident that Domenico Violi was being truthful when telling Morena that introductions to Arcadi, Mucci, and Frank Cotroni Jr. could be made on Morena's behalf. (I also suspect that Montrealers such as Tony Volpato, who were known to frequent Ontario over several decades, might have had in-person contact with the Violi brothers in the same way that Arcadi had actual in-person contact, while in Ontario, with the brothers in the mid-2000s [late 2004? early 2005? -- I'll have to check]).

5. If he was working a great deal the Bonanno’s could Metelsky have just confused Violi’s functional relationships with his potential official relationships?
I’d love to get everyone’s thoughts.

Metelsky probably knows which American LCN Family Joey Violi was inducted in but can't say.

I think Metelsky, despite crediting Vito Rizzuto and the Rizzuto crime group in Montreal with a large influence in mafia affairs in Ontario, has overlooked the functional relationships that Gaetano Panepinto and Pat Musitano had with Rizzuto when opining that Pat Musitano was made into the Buffalo Family. Maybe Metelsky thinks Panepinto was made by Buffalo too? Whereas I think that Musitano and brother Angelo, along with Panepinto, were examples of individuals "made" by Rizzuto in "inductions" that no American LCN Family would recognize as being legitimate because these inductions weren't into the Bonanno Family but, rather, some self-declared Rizzuto Crime Family that no American LCN Families would recognize.

When the two 'ndranghetisti travelled from Calabria to Quebec to ask Vito Rizzuto what he knew about the disappearance of 'ndranghetisti Napoli and Oppedisano in the Greater Toronto Area -- keep in mind the travelling men of honour already suspected Panepinto's involvement in the disappearance and later-confirmed murders -- why didn't they travel to Buffalo, Hamilton, or Burlington to ask after Panepinto? When Joe Bravo was discovered to have taken over Panepinto's group of criminals in the GTA after the latter's death, was Bravo -- a non-Italian who claimed in Sicily that he was made by Rizzuto himself -- replacing Buffalo Family member Panepinto or a made-by-Rizzuto Panepinto? Recall that an imprisoned-in-Ontario Panepinto was paying tribute to Montreal as late as 2009. Danny Ranieri is said to have taken over from Bravo after the latter's murder in Sicily in 2012 -- was Ranieri even made? if yes, by whom or by which Family?

[Newyorkempire]

In touching on Cece Luppino. We also have to ask was his older brother proposed or prospected to be made by their father? Most likely.

[OcSleeper]

I think that because Joey Violi and Vincenzo Morena were discussing whether Carfagna would be a good candidate to be made, we are all now fairly confident that Violi was made by September 2016 but we still aren't exactly sure whether he was initiated into the Buffalo Family or Bonanno Family. I heavily lean toward Violi being made by Buffalo; otherwise, the USAO EDNY release (https://www.justice.gov/usao-edny/pr/me ... s-arrested) would have mentioned that of the nine organized-crime members and associates arrested in Canada, at least one member or associate -- without having to name this individual -- was affiliated with the Bonanno Family.

I know Scott has said Joe Violi was made in 2016 and given the topic of discussion between Violi and Morena, it would seem he would be made. But what do we make of Dom Violi's comments in 2017 about figuring out his brother's affiliation? I also think Metelsky would've said Joe Violi was made in one of his articles/presentations/podcasts.

A conversation between Dom Violi, man in charge of the clan in Hamilton and nephew of Rocco and Natale, and the Agent in project Otremens in 2017 also gives interesting narratives on this. Dom Violi claims he was “promoted” to Underboss of the Buffalo family (the “Sicilians”) and now he has a few outstanding items to consider: first, the affiliation of his brother Joe, possibly to Buffalo but more likely to the Bonanno crew in New York City

.
.

Whereas I think that Musitano and brother Angelo, along with Panepinto, were examples of individuals "made" by Rizzuto in "inductions" that no American LCN Family would recognize as being legitimate because these inductions weren't into the Bonanno Family but, rather, some self-declared Rizzuto Crime Family that no American LCN Families would recognize.

When discussing Musitano and Avignone we have to consider that Paul Manning has also said they were Buffalo members. Seems to be the belief of Canadian/Ontario law enforcement.

I know before you have said in your conversations with Lee Lamothe or Adrian Humphreys they've told you it became apparent to them Rizzuto was inducting his own guys into his own family. Could you share the reason why they believed this and why you do as well?

If you feel it should go in another established post or a new one that's fine.

[B.]

Half of the Montreal decina was originally unsanctioned. Joe Bonanno wasn't supposed to induct more than ten members but inducted around ten more in Montreal and Canada without Commission approval. Decades later the Masssino regime was surprised to find out the Canada decina had twenty members, as they thought it should be ten. There is apparently a long history of questionable inductions in Montreal under multiple leaders and regardless of the protocol issues they were considered Bonanno members not members of a rogue "Family".

[stubbs]

What’s the chance Dom and Joey were made into different families in order to spread their power around and to create an alliance between families? Dom joins Buffalo where he can quickly rise up to a leadership position due to how small the family is. Then Joey joins the Bonannos to become closer to New York.

It makes sense if both Buffalo and the Bonannos have a decent number of members in Ontario. And it makes even more sense if Joey was/is a captain over all of the Bonannos in Ontario. The Bonannos in Ontario could also be a crew separate from the remaining Bonannos in Montreal.

Just speculating of course.

[NickleCity]

…snip…
Stephen Metelsky seems to think or know that Joey Violi was affiliated with the Bonannos. Screencaps from Metelsky’s Mob Museum presentation in March 2021:

…Snip…

Thanks for bringing this up about Metelsky’s graphics. I’m wondering what people think about this.
1. Is he saying that he believes Joe Violi was made or proposed to be made into the Bonnano family?

I think that because Joey Violi and Vincenzo Morena were discussing whether Carfagna would be a good candidate to be made, we are all now fairly confident that Violi was made by September 2016 but we still aren't exactly sure whether he was initiated into the Buffalo Family or Bonanno Family. I heavily lean toward Violi being made by Buffalo; otherwise, the USAO EDNY release (https://www.justice.gov/usao-edny/pr/me ... s-arrested) would have mentioned that of the nine organized-crime members and associates arrested in Canada, at least one member or associate -- without having to name this individual -- was affiliated with the Bonanno Family.

We don't know what Metelsky is saying about Joey Violi's being aligned with the Bonannos. Metelsky's next two instalments in his currently proposed three-instalment series might answer all of your questions, which most posters have too. He could be saying that both Joey and Dom Violi had formal connections not only with the U.S.-based Buffalo Family but also with the Bonanno Family. Metelsky could be alluding to the "[p]lans for Montreal, Quebec."

2. If so, how does that square with the comment that Violi wanted to stay put? See below:

[my graphic was here -- I've snipped it]

I wonder what exactly stay put means in this sense. Does it mean he doesn't want to be made? Or would he rather stay put within Buffalo's influence and be made with them? Both Dom and Joe Violi were present at the police informants induction which could imply he was made with Buffalo by that time.

I think that Joey Violi was merely expressing out loud the pros and cons of joining either the Buffalo Family or the Bonanno Family -- recall that on the Luppino tapes from the 1960s, Violi's father Paolo was recorded as saying the following per †Pierre de Champlain's 2017 book (but also in his 1986 book):

If I was to know that [Bill] Bonanno was coming up again, I would tell him what a dishonest man he is^53. [following this, perhaps not immediately after, Violi said] I am telling you that in Montreal we will be alone by ourselves^66.

What I find interesting is that Joey Violi's having a choice as to which American LCN Family he wanted to be inducted in may show that Canadians involved in Italian organized crime don't experience the pressure that their American counterparts face when asked to be made into a family with which they are on record -- I have more to say about what being "on record" means in Canada but I won't digress here. Anna Sergi's "Mafia Borderland" article indicates that Rocco Luppino was the one who likely asked son Cece about the latter's interest in being made -- at the very least, Cece gave his answer to his father (per the below excerpt from Sergi's article).

J Violi stated that Cece Luppino was asked if he wanted to be involved (be made), Cece told his dad if he could make money then he would be involved, if no money than he doesn't want to be involved; that there are too many headaches. J Violi stated that Cece told his father he watched his father struggle for 30 years, and that Cece does not want to struggle for 30 years; and if he does have to then he doesn't want it.^28

3. Like Chin I took this that Joe Violi did not want to become a Bonnano member and wanted to stay put in the the Buffalo sphere, but this graphic definitely complicates that take. Any ideas on how to square the Metelsky’s graphic with Violi’s words and the fact that we don’t have the entire context and complete conversation?

Again, Metelsky's next two instalments might answer this question too.

4. I wonder why Joe Violi would have considered joining the Bonannos if his brother and uncles were with Buffalo, was his relationship with Morena that strong? I guess he could have been working a lot with Bonanno associates and members.

I don't mind sharing now some research I've conducted about the ties that Violi brothers Domenico and Joey have to Tony Mucci. Having constructed a basic family tree for Joey Violi, I know that his children are Facebook friends with Mucci. I have always wondered about the Michel Mucci (first name was spelled differently, depending on the newspaper reporting at the time) who was charged with the Violi brothers in the 1990s for drug trafficking; more recently, while constructing a family tree for Mucci, I determined that his brother Michele is likely the person charged along with the Violi brothers.

Those following along know that I've discovered that Paolo Violi and wife Grazia Luppino were witnesses to the Montreal wedding of Francesco Arcadi and Agata Sicari in the 1970s, a wedding that the Violi brothers might have attended, as opposed to some of their first cousins in Montreal who were too young to attend. The Quebeckers who were paying Domenico Violi taxes last decade for contraband tobacco had familial ties to individuals aligned with Frank Cotroni Sr. in at least the early 1990s. So I'm fairly confident that Domenico Violi was being truthful when telling Morena that introductions to Arcadi, Mucci, and Frank Cotroni Jr. could be made on Morena's behalf. (I also suspect that Montrealers such as Tony Volpato, who were known to frequent Ontario over several decades, might have had in-person contact with the Violi brothers in the same way that Arcadi had actual in-person contact, while in Ontario, with the brothers in the mid-2000s [late 2004? early 2005? -- I'll have to check]).

5. If he was working a great deal the Bonanno’s could Metelsky have just confused Violi’s functional relationships with his potential official relationships?
I’d love to get everyone’s thoughts.

Metelsky probably knows which American LCN Family Joey Violi was inducted in but can't say.

I think Metelsky, despite crediting Vito Rizzuto and the Rizzuto crime group in Montreal with a large influence in mafia affairs in Ontario, has overlooked the functional relationships that Gaetano Panepinto and Pat Musitano had with Rizzuto when opining that Pat Musitano was made into the Buffalo Family. Maybe Metelsky thinks Panepinto was made by Buffalo too? Whereas I think that Musitano and brother Angelo, along with Panepinto, were examples of individuals "made" by Rizzuto in "inductions" that no American LCN Family would recognize as being legitimate because these inductions weren't into the Bonanno Family but, rather, some self-declared Rizzuto Crime Family that no American LCN Families would recognize.

When the two 'ndranghetisti travelled from Calabria to Quebec to ask Vito Rizzuto what he knew about the disappearance of 'ndranghetisti Napoli and Oppedisano in the Greater Toronto Area -- keep in mind the travelling men of honour already suspected Panepinto's involvement in the disappearance and later-confirmed murders -- why didn't they travel to Buffalo, Hamilton, or Burlington to ask after Panepinto? When Joe Bravo was discovered to have taken over Panepinto's group of criminals in the GTA after the latter's death, was Bravo -- a non-Italian who claimed in Sicily that he was made by Rizzuto himself -- replacing Buffalo Family member Panepinto or a made-by-Rizzuto Panepinto? Recall that an imprisoned-in-Ontario Panepinto was paying tribute to Montreal as late as 2009. Danny Ranieri is said to have taken over from Bravo after the latter's murder in Sicily in 2012 -- was Ranieri even made? if yes, by whom or by which Family?

Thanks for taking the time for such a detailed response. I've been very busy so hadn't had much time to digest what you wrote. Some quick observations:
1. It is so interesting how scenarios repeat themselves in "mafia" circles throughout the generations--Paolo saying we are alone, by ourselves and Joey indicating he would never see those guys if he joined the Bonannos. Make me wonder if Buffalo has been more hands on with their Canadian faction. Also, I wonder if this has played int the whole "6th family" thing. If that theory is correct I wonder how much this "being alone" would have resulted in Rizzuto becoming or acting as its own "rogue" family... My knowledge of this Bonnano Rizzuto thing is very amateur so please let me know if I'm getting my signals mixed with all this.

2. It will be interesting to see if Metelski is alluding to "plans for Montreal." Thanks for highlighting the Violi's connections to Mucci's, Arcadi's and those aligned with the Cotroni's. I've always suspected they had fairly strong connections to folks in Montreal but haven't had a chance to really research those connections as I focus more on the US side of the Buffalo family. I will have to look up the info on Michele and his drug trafficking with the Violis.

3. About Pat being made in Buffalo... I think Manning has indicated he got his stripes after the Papalia/Barillaro hits after crossing into Buffalo and coming back to Canada... but, also, think he's alluded to the fact that he was in trouble when he crossed and was lucky to have returned from Buffalo with his life. I think he's also referred to Papalia as being under Rizutto and the Bonannos in Buffalo... If I remember correctly he brought up the fact that Pops paid Rizutto tribute... With all this being said, I think supports the idea that it is incredible difficult for those of us outside the life to differentiate between the functional/operational ties between groups/members and formal affiliations. Anti we've discussed Volpe on another thread and I believe he is formally with Buffalo for a number of different reasons but I would never bet on my being correct. He could very well have just had a functional relationship with Buffalo guys.

4. The whole Pops/Barillaro thing is fascinating ... I wouldn't be surprised if Buffalo wanted Pops out of the way like one theory goes. But did they want Barillaro gone? Or did the Musitnano's "have' to get rid of him because Buffalo couldn't communicate quickly enough with Carmen that it was sanctioned so the Musitano's eliminated Barillaro to save their own skin. Did this put the Musitnao's on the outs with Buffalo and they used the situation to cozy up to the Rizzutos and get made by him.

Sorry for rambling but I was just spitballing from the top of my head.

[B.]

Papalia and Volpe were Buffalo members.

The available evidence also points to Musitano being a Buffalo member.

[NickleCity]

Papalia and Volpe were Buffalo members.

The available evidence also points to Musitano being a Buffalo member.

Yes, I believe Papalia and Volpe were Buffalo members and that the evidence points to Musitano being a Buffalo member as well. I just find it interesting that the functional versus formal are hard to figure out give LE like Paul Manning may have confused the two at times. If I remember correctly said something indicated that Buffalo answered to Bonnanos — when in actuality he is just describing a functional relationship members and associate may have had… another example is when he said Papalia had paid tribute to Rizzutos and Montreal again a functional relationship not based on formal affiliation and who Pops answered to in Buffalo.

[B.]

For sure man.

I brought this up before about "tribute" -- this is one of those often misunderstood practices in the mafia. Was there otherwise no financial obligation to Vito Rizzuto but these Buffalo members gave him a sum of money to curry favor or show respect? Or was there a business or financial arrangement / partnership, a return on investment, or another factor that influenced the transaction? This isn't academic, it's crucial to understanding what took place.

"Me give money to Vito. Me a Bonanno or member of Vito's new org" isn't a situation that typically plays out in the mafia.

With Musitano, we have a former RCMP sergeant saying they believed Musitano was made with Buffalo after the Papalia hit and then introduced to Rizzuto as amico nos, plus in this thread there's the reference to a Musitano-related murder contract in Toronto and Joe Violi believes Todaro had to be the one to sanction it which is circumstantial evidence Todaro was their superior. That's on top of them being longtime Hamilton-based associates of Buffalo members.

[OcSleeper]

'Walk and talk': Massive RCMP mafia investigation targeted Burlington neighbourhood Pt. 1/3
https://www.insidehalton.com/opinion/wa ... 8a02f.html

Want to place this here so it's with all the other sources for the Otremens' recordings.

Recording a mafia induction ceremony Pt 2/3
https://www.insidehalton.com/opinion/re ... 97f20.html

Didn't notice anything new but Metelsky confirms the 3rd man in the room during Morena's induction ceremony was Paul Semplice.

[NickleCity]

Looking forward to part three: Undermining an Underboss

[chin_gigante]

Semplice being there for the ceremony is very interesting

[antimafia]

'Walk and talk': Massive RCMP mafia investigation targeted Burlington neighbourhood Pt. 1/3
https://www.insidehalton.com/opinion/wa ... 8a02f.html

Want to place this here so it's with all the other sources for the Otremens' recordings.

Recording a mafia induction ceremony Pt 2/3
https://www.insidehalton.com/opinion/re ... 97f20.html

Didn't notice anything new but Metelsky confirms the 3rd man in the room during Morena's induction ceremony was Paul Semplice.

What intel did the FBI and RCMP have that they were considering Italy as one country in which Morena’s induction ceremony would occur?

So Morena started living in Hamilton in 2013. He didn’t engage, then, in crimes in Laval and Saint John; rather, he was a Project OTremens paid police agent who was already helping to arrest actual criminals in RCMP operations like Project J-Tornado. (RCMP projects starting with the letter O are started in Ontario; those starting with the letter J are started in New Brunswick.)

The Hamilton Police Service is holding a press conference tomorrow re: last week’s Project Odeon bust in Ontario:

MEDIA ADVISORY: Project ODEON

On Thursday, August 10, 2023, Hamilton Police and partners will be providing details on Project ODEON, a multi-jurisdictional investigation targeting the illegal production of fentanyl and other synthetic drugs.

WHAT: Project ODEON
WHEN: Thursday, August 10, 2023, at 11:00 a.m.
Location: 100 Wilson Street, Hamilton
(Hamilton Police Service Investigative Services Division)
____

Will be interesting to see whether Italian organized crime was targeted.

[antimafia]

^^^^
Re: this morning's Hamilton Police Service news conference re: Project Odeon

Twelve individuals arrested; 48 charges. A number of people charged bore the surname Gill (so Indo-Canadian crime is involved). Several more of the individuals charged, all of whom are from Hamilton, had the surname Sultani or Soltani (not sure I have the correct spelling of the surname) -- Google tells me the surname is Persian and/or Arabic in origin.

No Italian-Canadians arrested and charged.