Who's taking over

[CabriniGreen]

Also, did the capos vote him (Cammarano) in before or after they took his no- vig loans?

[SonnyBlackstein]

It's just not happening.

I just don't see where Nose's power base is.
IIRC Cammarano had a vast majority of the Captains. Nose has to have lost respect in and externally. Joe is respected externally. He was quiet. I don't think it's likey but I disagree that Nose has the ability to enforce his decision to shelve. Johnny Joe cant take on the world himself. Whats Aiello going to do? Perhaps I'm wrong and he does. I just don't see this as a definitive, no.
If Nose wasn't a walking news story then this would a dead issue. But with all the heat, meetings, funeral parlor, headlines. I think him going away could get people asking questions.

Just an opinion.

[jmack]

He's shelved, nothing is changing.

Did Colombo shelve Gallo?
Did that kill the issue?

No, I don't think Colombo shelved Gallo, but I don't know, nor do I really see how he's relevant to Cammarano. Whether or not there is still an issue between Cammarano and Mancuso is irrelevant. It's will anything change when Mancuso goes away and the answer is almost certainly no

Cammarano already had the support, was voted in as official, and then they fell in line when Mancuso came home. Why would Mancuso going away for another 2 years change anything now? They're in a worse spot than they were in 2018/2019. Cammarano, Porky, and Grimaldi are shelved, others were demoted, some have left the city (DiPilato), and its probably safe to assume Mancuso has bolstered his power base. Mancuso is also recognized by the other families. It's just not happening.

Yeah... when Vic Orena tried to poll the capos, he miscalculated badly. He mistook a relationship with Gotti as a green light to take over. But didnt correctly judge the climate INSIDE the family.

But when Gotti took a "Vote", he had like, armed sentries to make sure the vote went right. He was ready to bring the guns out, hell he already did by hitting Paul.

Camarrano apparently not a student of history?

Just my opinion, but I don’t think Vic wanted it enough and wasn’t aggressive enough. He had 100 out of the 125 soldiers on his side. He should have steamrolled the Persicos with aggression. He underestimated their nothing to lose attitude. I don’t know if it would have been successful but he should have made overtures to Scarpa. His crew was the major force. If he upped him to captain Or consigliere, he may have won. That’s just my opinion.

[Browniety86]

He's shelved, nothing is changing.

Did Colombo shelve Gallo?
Did that kill the issue?

No, I don't think Colombo shelved Gallo, but I don't know, nor do I really see how he's relevant to Cammarano. Whether or not there is still an issue between Cammarano and Mancuso is irrelevant. It's will anything change when Mancuso goes away and the answer is almost certainly no

Cammarano already had the support, was voted in as official, and then they fell in line when Mancuso came home. Why would Mancuso going away for another 2 years change anything now? They're in a worse spot than they were in 2018/2019. Cammarano, Porky, and Grimaldi are shelved, others were demoted, some have left the city (DiPilato), and its probably safe to assume Mancuso has bolstered his power base. Mancuso is also recognized by the other families. It's just not happening.

Yeah... when Vic Orena tried to poll the capos, he miscalculated badly. He mistook a relationship with Gotti as a green light to take over. But didnt correctly judge the climate INSIDE the family.

But when Gotti took a "Vote", he had like, armed sentries to make sure the vote went right. He was ready to bring the guns out, hell he already did by hitting Paul.

Camarrano apparently not a student of history?

Just my opinion, but I don’t think Vic wanted it enough and wasn’t aggressive enough. He had 100 out of the 125 soldiers on his side. He should have steamrolled the Persicos with aggression. He underestimated their nothing to lose attitude. I don’t know if it would have been successful but he should have made overtures to Scarpa. His crew was the major force. If he upped him to captain Or consigliere, he may have won. That’s just my opinion.

He did make overtures to Scarpa. Larry Mazza said Orena sent Jimmy Angelina to Scarpa's social club to ask him how he felt if Vic took over. Greg stayed on the fence at the time and ultimately remained loyal to Carmine.

[OcSleeper]

It's just not happening.

I just don't see where Nose's power base is.
IIRC Cammarano had a vast majority of the Captains. Nose has to have lost respect in and externally. Joe is respected externally. He was quiet. I don't think it's likey but I disagree that Nose has the ability to enforce his decision to shelve. Johnny Joe cant take on the world himself. Whats Aiello going to do? Perhaps I'm wrong and he does. I just don't see this as a definitive, no.
If Nose wasn't a walking news story then this would a dead issue. But with all the heat, meetings, funeral parlor, headlines. I think him going away could get people asking questions.

Just an opinion.

If you can't see where Mancuso's power base is maybe you should swing by his spot in LI and see if his girlfriend will hook you up with some glasses.

Mancuso's position as boss isn't disputed by anyone or any family that we know of. If he says Cammarano is shelved, he's shelved. We can go back and forth on if that actually means anything or not but history tells us it does and I won't say it doesn't unless there's something to suggest that. Pennisi talks about it as still being a very serious thing, saying it means they'd kill you but won't.

It's not just Spirito and Aiello supporting Mancuso and I'm not saying it's the entirety of the Bronx either. But it's very clear he has a sizeable group of Bronx loyalists and others like Badalamenti, Sciremammano, Maiorino, and possibly Asaro.

The Bonanno's Bronx crew(s)/faction has been behind a lot of the violence we've seen in the last 20 years and they're not shy about it either from what we hear. In 2015 Cammarano was worried about retaliation from Palazzolo and had his guys carrying because of it. The feds took Palazzolo off the street on violations to calm things down. The Bonnano Bronx guys are behind many of the murders in the early-mid 2000s, likely behind the last Bonanno murder with Seccafico, Meldish beatings, social club raids, funeral brawls. They've shown they're not afraid of violence, even in recent times. So to answer, I think they'll resort to violence like they've shown they will already if a threat appears, especially if a shelved Cammarano tries anything. I mean they tried dishing a beating out because he attended a funeral, just imagine if he tried to take over the family again.

This is why I say with almost complete certainty nothing will happen when Mancuso goes away for his 2 years. Now if we get a serious indictment (I think we will) that takes out Mancuso and his loyalists that will give them heavy time maybe I could see something happen.

[SonnyBlackstein]

If you can't see where Mancuso's power base is maybe should swing by his spot in LI and see if his girlfriend will hook you up with some glasses.

Ha!

The Bonanno's Bronx crew(s)/faction has been behind a lot of the violence we've seen in the last 20 years and they're not shy about it either from what we hear. In 2015 Cammarano was worried about retaliation from Palazzolo and had his guys carrying because of it. The feds took Palazzolo off the street on violations to calm things down. The Bonnano Bronx guys are behind many of the murders in the early-mid 2000s, likely behind the last Bonanno murder with Seccafico, Meldish beatings, social club raids, funeral brawls. They've shown they're not afraid of violence, even in recent times. So to answer, I think they'll resort to violence like they've shown they will already if a threat appears, especially if a shelved Cammarano tries anything. I mean they tried dishing a beating out because he attended a funeral, just imagine if he tried to take over the family again.

This is why I say with almost complete certainty nothing will happen when Mancuso goes away for his 2 years. Now if we get a serious indictment (I think we will) that takes out Mancuso and his loyalists that will give them heavy time maybe I could see something happen.

Yeah good call. Agree.
Perhaps I'm a little colored with all the Burstein hyperbolic about in/external dissatisfaction with Nose.
Looking from your perspective, I concur. I never thought it likely but agree its pretty much a definitive.
Good post OC.

[B.]

Politics are a huge factor not necessarily manpower.

Look at the Castellammarese War where Valachi said the Gagliano faction was a tiny minority of the Luccheses and even when they teamed up with the Bonannos they were up against the entire Genovese Family and most of the Gambinos. But they made strategic hits and cultivated political support, it wasn't like the Families were sending all of their men onto a battlefield.

In the 90s Colombo War the Persicos had a small, tight-knit core of guys willing to kill and die for Carmine Persico while Orena had a lot of guys who were trying to take the path of least resistance and more or less fence-sitting when it came down to it.

Mancuso has had support outside the Bronx since he went to prison after becoming acting boss. Montagna, Santora, Rabito, Badalamenti, Palazzolo, Sciremammano, and likely others are either confirmed or implied supporters with ranking positions who have helped him secure power. More recently it looks like Jerry Asaro and Anthony Fasitta recognize his position so that is the powerful Asaro crew and the Sicilians in Queens who may be aligned with him. It does look like Cammarano gained the support of many guys for a time but like most conflicts these guys go with the wind.

What's more interesting to me is where the other Families sit. The Luccheses refused to recognize Mancuso and Cammarano looks to have had the support of the Genovese Family but as of right now all we know is Mancuso is very close to Colombo members. Those relationships are big in this.

[aray22]

Now if we get a serious indictment (I think we will) that takes out Mancuso and his loyalists that will give them heavy time maybe I could see something happen.
[/quote]

You think? I feel like if they had anything significant on him they wouldn't have charged him with a violation of his release. If you remember they waited until the very last day to charge him with it because they wanted to see what evidence they could gather in the meantime.

[aray22]

It's just not happening.

I just don't see where Nose's power base is.
IIRC Cammarano had a vast majority of the Captains. Nose has to have lost respect in and externally. Joe is respected externally. He was quiet. I don't think it's likey but I disagree that Nose has the ability to enforce his decision to shelve. Johnny Joe cant take on the world himself. Whats Aiello going to do? Perhaps I'm wrong and he does. I just don't see this as a definitive, no.
If Nose wasn't a walking news story then this would a dead issue. But with all the heat, meetings, funeral parlor, headlines. I think him going away could get people asking questions.

Just an opinion.

Now if we get a serious indictment (I think we will) that takes out Mancuso and his loyalists that will give them heavy time maybe I could see something happen.

You think? I feel like if they had anything significant on him they wouldn't have charged him with a violation of his release. If you remember they waited until the very last day to charge him with it because they wanted to see what evidence they could gather in the meantime.

[OcSleeper]

Maybe I'm wrong, I don't know. But yeah I think a big indictment will hit that Bronx crew(s) at some point in the relative near future. Maybe Mancuso isn't apart of it, maybe he is, I know Aiello and Spirito Jr sure as hell will be though. They seem too wild and bold for there not to be some big investigation in the works targeting them. This is just my prediction though.

[Uforeality]

If the Feds hit Mancusso with an indictment it will have 10+ charges. Even if it's over the top, the charges, something will stick and he'll get a significant jail sentence.

[Uforeality]

What about Detroit and Chicago? Are they that far depleted now?

[TSNYC]

Dark horse gambino candidate (at some point): Joe Lanni … though I’m sure there’s a full court law enforcement press to bring down the Sicilian faction of Mannino, Cefalu, Lanni, etc. but so long as no murders, shouldn’t be end of the world.

Get sense other main gambino faction is “bronx” faction of campos and Filipelli crews - and seems all these gambino crews are heavy in construction.

[InCamelot]

How come Patty Falcetti isn't as often mention as a future candidate for boss? He's young enough, with 116th and has seniority of Ragusa and Balsamo I would think.

[SonnyBlackstein]

How come Patty Falcetti isn't as often mention as a future candidate for boss? He's young enough, with 116th and has seniority of Ragusa and Balsamo I would think.

Good call. I'd still rank Ernie above in seniority, but Patty is younger. I'd like to know the power dynamic between Pagano and Falcetti.
Wonder if Gigante also has clout. He had that list and the family bank. Wonder if that's put him on the outs. He does have pedigree.