New York Membership over time
Moderator: Capos
Re: New York Membership over time
chin's estimations for the Bonannos and Luccheses sound about right. I would say the Genovese and Gambinos are at around 200 with the Colombos at around 100. That would put it near to Carillo's 800 estimation.
Re: New York Membership over time
I have a feeling the Bonannos are closer to that 150 range as it seems like they're most aggressive in making guys. It also seems like they're the youngest family and bring more sons/nephews into the life.
Re: New York Membership over time
I found this AGI article that shows an estimate of how many members each family had in 2021. I don't know how accurate it is, but none of them exceed 200 members. Do you think these numbers are correct?
https://www.agi.it/cronaca/news/2021-03 ... 767557/amp
https://www.agi.it/cronaca/news/2021-03 ... 767557/amp
Re: New York Membership over time
That was from the DIA in Italy that said it had access to FBI figures.Gustazul wrote: ↑Tue Apr 18, 2023 8:08 am I found this AGI article that shows an estimate of how many members each family had in 2021. I don't know how accurate it is, but none of them exceed 200 members. Do you think these numbers are correct?
https://www.agi.it/cronaca/news/2021-03 ... 767557/amp
All roads lead to New York.
Re: New York Membership over time
So presumably those figures are accurate, right? Obviously without considering the associates, which must add up to a lot of numbers for each family.Wiseguy wrote: ↑Tue Apr 18, 2023 8:47 amThat was from the DIA in Italy that said it had access to FBI figures.Gustazul wrote: ↑Tue Apr 18, 2023 8:08 am I found this AGI article that shows an estimate of how many members each family had in 2021. I don't know how accurate it is, but none of them exceed 200 members. Do you think these numbers are correct?
https://www.agi.it/cronaca/news/2021-03 ... 767557/amp
Re: New York Membership over time
I agree with Chin's estimates for the Bonannos and Luccheses.
Bonannos are the hardest to gauge for historic membership. We have Joe Bonanno putting them at 300 members at one point and Ray Patriarca estimated them between 200 and 400. Sam DeCavalcante said there were around 260 in late 1964. We have Paul Sciacca telling Magaddino they were at 182 in early 1965 but the senior Bonanno member he's with says around 100. Some other FBI sources put the Bonannos in the 180-200 range which is closer to what I believe.
Did Joe Bonanno exceed the cap when he inducted unsanctioned members? He made as many as ten Canadian members without approval on top of the ten existing members. In the 2000s Sal Vitale said the admin was surprised to learn there were twenty members in Canada as they expected ten, which interestingly is what Magaddino said was the original number approved by the Commission. There were rogue inductions of West Coast members too and possibly others. Based on what we know and can guess, it's possible Bonanno made up to 20 members after the books closed. Sciacca was probably referring to the official size of the Family but the unofficial size might have been around 200 or more.
By the late Massino era they are at 150 to 160 members. Since Families lose membership slots when a made member is killed, I could see them once having 200 official members. The Gambinos look to have had 300 originally and DiLeonardo said their cap was around 260 during his time. He also said the Gambinos stayed close to their cap, around 250 members. He thought the Genovese had a similar cap / size as the Gambinos. Would make sense if the Gambinos and Genovese were 300 members taken down to 260 and the Bonannos were 200 taken down to 160. Using these numbers somewhat loosely.
Colombos and Luccheses are easier -- by all accounts it doesn't look like they ever exceeded 150 members. With the Luccheses hovering around 120 and the Colombos even lower, they may have caps around there at this point. Both Families lost many slots through murder and living CWs.
Bonannos are the hardest to gauge for historic membership. We have Joe Bonanno putting them at 300 members at one point and Ray Patriarca estimated them between 200 and 400. Sam DeCavalcante said there were around 260 in late 1964. We have Paul Sciacca telling Magaddino they were at 182 in early 1965 but the senior Bonanno member he's with says around 100. Some other FBI sources put the Bonannos in the 180-200 range which is closer to what I believe.
Did Joe Bonanno exceed the cap when he inducted unsanctioned members? He made as many as ten Canadian members without approval on top of the ten existing members. In the 2000s Sal Vitale said the admin was surprised to learn there were twenty members in Canada as they expected ten, which interestingly is what Magaddino said was the original number approved by the Commission. There were rogue inductions of West Coast members too and possibly others. Based on what we know and can guess, it's possible Bonanno made up to 20 members after the books closed. Sciacca was probably referring to the official size of the Family but the unofficial size might have been around 200 or more.
By the late Massino era they are at 150 to 160 members. Since Families lose membership slots when a made member is killed, I could see them once having 200 official members. The Gambinos look to have had 300 originally and DiLeonardo said their cap was around 260 during his time. He also said the Gambinos stayed close to their cap, around 250 members. He thought the Genovese had a similar cap / size as the Gambinos. Would make sense if the Gambinos and Genovese were 300 members taken down to 260 and the Bonannos were 200 taken down to 160. Using these numbers somewhat loosely.
Colombos and Luccheses are easier -- by all accounts it doesn't look like they ever exceeded 150 members. With the Luccheses hovering around 120 and the Colombos even lower, they may have caps around there at this point. Both Families lost many slots through murder and living CWs.