General Chicago Outfit Info Dumping Ground

[Antiliar]

Joe Fosco wrote this yesterday, which is interesting:

[Frank Rosenthal] was intelligent up to the point where he decided to believe Tony Spilotro when Tony told him that he was sent by the boss of Chicago to oversee the Outfit's interest in LV. Of course, this spoof was among some of the reasons for Tony's fate. I wish to better clarify some information that I previously shared here about Tony. I previously said something along the lines that Tony was thrown out of Chicago (that was a bit harsh of me. Ill call it hyperbolic). To clarify, Tony was not being relied on for anything serious in Chicago after a while, which caused him to look for a new home-base, such as LV. Joe Lombardo was his only serious backer by the late 70s. However, Joe L was not the boss and Joe was compromised by a great deal of legal complications, which meant that Tony's then significant source of Outfit power was not good enough for his ambitions. Setting up shop elsewhere became a good idea for Tony. Of course Tony was clever enough to pull off (for a while) the spoof that tricked some (especially Bill Roemer), into thinking he was the Outfit's agent to oversee LV. Few people know what I'm sharing here in a clear and detailed manner is true. Some of the Spilotro family members are well aware that Tony was not the selected Outfit agent in LV. Tony's brother Pat well knew this fact and even remarked to Michael Magnafichi and I that he was impressed that we knew this fact. I realize I won't be able to convince many of what I'm stating here about Tony. Nevertheless, I'm stating what I know is factual. Tony as boss of LV is as incorrect as all of the now old news that Joe Nick was the boss of Chicago. Frankly, I suspect Johnny DiFronzo leaked to the FBI that Joe Nick was boss.

I know during post strawman days Joe Nick was going to send Bobby Dominic to Vegas right before he died, to get involved in the adult bookstore racket. This never came to fruition because Joe died. As far as Chicago's control over LV, that was handled directly by Joey O and Jack through their Kansas guys.
Although, in the days shortly prior to the strawman case, Joey O sent word to my father through Joe Nick to give Tony a message. I'm unclear as to why my father was chosen to do this. I do know my dad orchestrated a trip to Vegas through his position with the Teamsters (some union convention) to disguise his true reason for going there. My father was commissioned to tell Tony to "lay low," because of the Outfit heat that Tony was helping fuel by engaging in his own nonsense.

[Tonyd621]

I am by no means a chicago expert...I am a chicago enthusiast. I do not believe what Fosco is saying is true. Unless, some of you have heard this before. But Fosco has to interject himself, his father and the DiFronzo rat situation into the story tells me he still has an agenda.
Tony Spilotro would be getting killed alot sooner if this was the case. More over, what about all the hits Spilotro did while in Vegas? He did that on his own free will without anyone from Chicago knowing?

[NorthBuffalo]

I think if you look at Spilotro's record, he was clearly interceding in Outfit affairs both in Nevada, California and Arizona during his time in Vegas. He was meeting every Outfit guy who came into Vegas as well as people from other families. Fratianno and others have testified he represented Chicago. Remember, the Outfit sent people to collect Tony's debts after he was killed - that was their money on the street in Vegas, not Tony's. If I'm not mistaken, it was the DiNunzio brothers out of Boston working with Chris Petti collecting that money.

I think Fosco has agendas against certain guys - I've wondered if Fosco sees the new YouTube former mob guy generation making money and is wondering if he can jump back in to make a buck. Spilotro is always a hot topic that gets clicks. I'm not sure how that website made any money but like I've always said, guys in locals across the country read that because his family was quite infamous.

[Frank]

Yes it was the DiNunzio bros and Petti. I just don't see where Spilotro could get away with that for so long a time period.

[Angelo Santino]

I think Fosco's post is possible.

Falls under operational. We know Spilotro was a soldier in Lombardo's decina. As for him being liked or not, that's a nonfactor in the mafia until evidence of a mistake/rule breaking can be used. Most made member murders aren't the result of any single issue but rather an accruing list of issues that his rivals can argue/use as a valid reason for ex-communication (shelving or death.) We also know Spilotro was not on the shelf. After his move, he remained in contact with members/associates locally and nationally. So organizationally, member in good standing.

If I recall, both Fratianno and Roselli discussed Spilotro as Chicago's replacement for Roselli in typical these-young-guys-are-inferior fashion. It can be assumed that operationally, he was viewed by members of his own family and members of other families as being Chicago's Man in Vegas. If I recall, Roselli was not on good terms with Accardo post-Ricca and given Roselli's distance from Chicago, it's possible he wasn't told this and didn't bother to ask questions. Given how tight-lipped Chicago is, it might even have been a problem to ask, especially when on the outs with the admin.

This is what makes the operational aspect just as interesting because it can't be separated from the org. If Spilotro was misrepresenting/inflating his responsibilities to other members/families that would be the operational equivalent to Fratianno misrepresenting himself as the acting boss to New York when he was acting underboss. Different tracks same direction.

Another possibility is that he never misrepresented himself and it was just assumed. If you're an LA member and you are seeking a conduit to Chicago, Vegas is alot closer. Chicago would also have an advantage in having a member there due to their interests even if they regarded him as a janitor rather than a manager. To my knowledge, he had a relationship with Rosenthal who "overlooked" the operation but how involved was Spilotro? Was he bringing duffle bags of cash out of the vaults with accountants combing over the proceeds to personally transporting back to Chicago in armored vehicles GTA style? The answer to this question might clear things up. if he wasn't "managing" Chicago's biggest operation in the city, it takes away from his being boss of operations.

[Patrickgold]

No way is what Fosco is saying is true. Not sure what his agenda is. There are too many informants and wire taps to prove he is wrong. And remember, Rosenthal was a CI. Agosto was a CI. Frattiano was a CI. Bomp was a CI. If the Feds believed he was the Outfit representative in Vegas, it was probably for good reason.

Not to mention that Spilotro participated in the high profile Destafano hit a little before or after he went to Vegas. How would he be “non-employable” by the outfit if they were using him for hits like that.

[Frank]

Spilotro was sent to Vegas to protect Outfit Casino interests. I also believe at that time he was also protecting all US Mafia interests. They didnt want every family to have a watchhdog there as they didn't want to intimidate tourist. His job was basically security with muscle.

[NorthBuffalo]

We have bosses on tape from all over the country from Civella to Balistreri to Lonardo on tape talking about Spilotro as if he were Chicago when those rackets were going on in Vegas. He was critical to all of the major players in the Teamsters loans and very close with all of them in Vegas.

[Frank]

He obviously pissed the bosses off as we already know for a variety of reasons and one of the biggest was the heat he was attracting.

[Coloboy]

Agreed with all that it seems virtually impossible that he wasn't there as the official Outfit guy on on the ground. Too much evidence to the contrary. Plus there is a wiretap of him on the phone with Carl DeLuna (KC underboss) discussing Vegas operations.

Fosco has always had great info, but has many axes to grind. Notice in a 2 paragraph post about Spilotro he managed to find a way to take a shot at Difronzo? lol.

[Snakes]

It could be a mixture of the two. Maybe Spilotro didn't have enough pull as a lot of people originally thought. I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility that he wasn't there to *supervise* Outfit operations, but he was a convenient contact because he was in Vegas and this put him in contact with the California and KC members.

[Frank]

Yes , from what Ive read he was there as muscle. That doesnt mean he ran the whole Vegas operation and its possible he overstepped his authority

[Patrickgold]

It could be a mixture of the two. Maybe Spilotro didn't have enough pull as a lot of people originally thought. I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility that he wasn't there to *supervise* Outfit operations, but he was a convenient contact because he was in Vegas and this put him in contact with the California and KC members.

I was always under them impression that he was their muscle. He was not “the brains” behind the skim, especially since the skim predates his time there but he did have power there. That is proven with him meeting or talking with every major mafia person in the Midwest. That being said, the skim would have happened with or without him. I wonder why Fosco is saying this stuff now.

[Patrickgold]

Joe Fosco wrote this yesterday, which is interesting:

[Frank Rosenthal] was intelligent up to the point where he decided to believe Tony Spilotro when Tony told him that he was sent by the boss of Chicago to oversee the Outfit's interest in LV. Of course, this spoof was among some of the reasons for Tony's fate. I wish to better clarify some information that I previously shared here about Tony. I previously said something along the lines that Tony was thrown out of Chicago (that was a bit harsh of me. Ill call it hyperbolic). To clarify, Tony was not being relied on for anything serious in Chicago after a while, which caused him to look for a new home-base, such as LV. Joe Lombardo was his only serious backer by the late 70s. However, Joe L was not the boss and Joe was compromised by a great deal of legal complications, which meant that Tony's then significant source of Outfit power was not good enough for his ambitions. Setting up shop elsewhere became a good idea for Tony. Of course Tony was clever enough to pull off (for a while) the spoof that tricked some (especially Bill Roemer), into thinking he was the Outfit's agent to oversee LV. Few people know what I'm sharing here in a clear and detailed manner is true. Some of the Spilotro family members are well aware that Tony was not the selected Outfit agent in LV. Tony's brother Pat well knew this fact and even remarked to Michael Magnafichi and I that he was impressed that we knew this fact. I realize I won't be able to convince many of what I'm stating here about Tony. Nevertheless, I'm stating what I know is factual. Tony as boss of LV is as incorrect as all of the now old news that Joe Nick was the boss of Chicago. Frankly, I suspect Johnny DiFronzo leaked to the FBI that Joe Nick was boss.

I know during post strawman days Joe Nick was going to send Bobby Dominic to Vegas right before he died, to get involved in the adult bookstore racket. This never came to fruition because Joe died. As far as Chicago's control over LV, that was handled directly by Joey O and Jack through their Kansas guys.
Although, in the days shortly prior to the strawman case, Joey O sent word to my father through Joe Nick to give Tony a message. I'm unclear as to why my father was chosen to do this. I do know my dad orchestrated a trip to Vegas through his position with the Teamsters (some union convention) to disguise his true reason for going there. My father was commissioned to tell Tony to "lay low," because of the Outfit heat that Tony was helping fuel by engaging in his own nonsense.

If you don’t mind me asking, where did Fosco post this?

[Angelo Santino]

If its agreed that he was their muscle and not their brains then he likely was not the formal operational boss for Chicago. I don't get the sense that they elevate brawn without brains, especially over an operation as vital as the Vegas skim.

LV mob history cant gloss over or understate Spilotro's wide influence. Regardless of whether or not he was or wasn't their rep, it falls under operational, it's just as important as organizational. Without the latter, there would be no mafia.

But organizationally, he was a soldier in the Grand Ave Crew, the Outfit didn't take him out of the rank of soldier and give him some special office above soldier but below capo. It takes nothing away from him just like it doesn't from Roselli whom Fratianno quoted as saying: "there are soldiers and then there are soldiers."

Families do give members specific duties within their operations. You either are Gotti's rep or heading up gambling or you're not. It would be dangerous for a member to say "I'm Gotti's official rep" or "The gambling house was officially given to me," when they weren't granted the authority by superiors to do so. It could be a capital offense to "misrepresent" your family-given authority within the operational.

-

Question, were there other "active" members residing and operating/working in Vegas during the Spilotro era?