General Chicago Outfit Info Dumping Ground

[Angelo Santino]

My main takeway from this discussion is not whether Ricca was boss or acting, but that he was connected nationally. Just as early as Capone. He may have been a Chicago member first or part of Capone's Genovese decina that transferred over, regardless, Comparello's name was known which says something.

I think back to the Montagna situation when he was deported to Canada, everyone (including me ) argued that he was a man without a family, meanwhile someone noted that Nick said he wasn't taking orders from Montagna, which informs us that Montagna was known to Montreal, he wasn't a nonentity.

[SonnyC]

For context on Tony's new avatar: https://youtu.be/pJy9EFf-tiM

Now go order some new windaz from Super Sash because sometimes the old ones have an unfortunate way of getting broken - just like arms and legs.

I knew I recognized that from somewhere!

[Antiliar]

leading directly to Nitto’s suicide (presumably, there were men preparing to help him out with that if he didn’t do it himself).

But what would they have gained by killing him? I thought they needed Nitto alive as a scapegoat to save everybody else from jail, while after Nitto's suicide it took almost 4 years for them to get out.

There's different theories about that. In 1943 one of the defense attorneys put out the theory that Nitto feared his Outfit colleagues because he enriched himself and didn't share.

CT 1943May27 Nitto feared mob.jpg

One reporter for the Chicago Daily News claimed the day before Nitto killed himself there was a meeting where it was decided that he would take the rap and if he refused he would be killed.

Chicago Daily News 1943Jul10 Nitto Ricca Campagna argument.jpg

FWIW, Joe Fosco seemed to confirm the Daily News story (except for the hierarchy - both Ricca and Campagna held higher ranks than Nitto), adding that if he refused they were going to torture him.

[Antiliar]

In August 1959, Chicago Tribune reporter Sandy Smith revealed that he had a source who provided information on Willie Daddono, the "Young Turks" preparing to take over the mob, and that the leaders of the Outfit were called "The Man" and "The Boss."

CT 1959Aug10 The Man The Boss.jpg

Smith was a resource for FBI agents like William Roemer, and they sometimes leaked information to Smith. In his statement to the FBI, Smith expanded on what he wrote in his article. We don't know if the added info came from Smith's informant or if he filled in the gaps himself. I think it's likely that Smith edited some of his information for publication.

FBI File CG 92-349 - The Man The Boss.jpg

The chronology is obviously off and the members' positions don't agree with other sources (because of the similar chronological errors I wondered if this was also Ted DeRose), but I think there's still useful information. While we don't see it often, we do see the word "boss" used by members and as I mentioned earlier "The Man" (or a form of it) was used in Kansas City.

[PolackTony]

In August 1959, Chicago Tribune reporter Sandy Smith revealed that he had a source who provided information on Willie Daddono, the "Young Turks" preparing to take over the mob, and that the leaders of the Outfit were called "The Man" and "The Boss."

CT 1959Aug10 The Man The Boss.jpg

Smith was a resource for FBI agents like William Roemer, and they sometimes leaked information to Smith. In his statement to the FBI, Smith expanded on what he wrote in his article. We don't know if the added info came from Smith's informant or if he filled in the gaps himself. I think it's likely that Smith edited some of his information for publication.

FBI File CG 92-349 - The Man The Boss.jpg

The chronology is obviously off and the members' positions don't agree with other sources (because of the similar chronological errors I wondered if this was also Ted DeRose), but I think there's still useful information. While we don't see it often, we do see the word "boss" used by members and as I mentioned earlier "The Man" (or a form of it) was used in Kansas City.

FWIW, Smith seems to have revealed to the FBI that his source was Joe Bulger. If Bulger told him that Accardo was not a member of the “mafia”, then we can probably wonder about the veracity of the other info Smith was reporting.

[Antiliar]

I don't think it's necessary to throw out the baby with the bathwater, and I can see Bulger "protecting" Accardo by downplaying his affiliation. Even saying Giancana was unable to control the "Young Turks" could have been a way to reduce his liability.

[PolackTony]

I don't think it's necessary to throw out the baby with the bathwater, and I can see Bulger "protecting" Accardo by downplaying his affiliation. Even saying Giancana was unable to control the "Young Turks" could have been a way to reduce his liability.

Which part is the baby though? When you posted about Smith’s claims, you said that there was “useful information”. I’m not sure how useful any of it is, personally, but I’m not sure which parts you think are useful. That Capezio was boss from 1952 to 1957? This is almost certainly false. Bill Bonanno tells us that Accardo had been boss until 1956, when he stepped down and Giancana was introduced to the Commission as the new boss of Chicago. Bill got a number of things wrong, particularly about older history, but I’m inclined to take Bill at face value there as Bill said that he was actually a witness to that meeting as he was in attendance as an aide to his father, which I see no reason to doubt.

[Antiliar]

I don't think it's necessary to throw out the baby with the bathwater, and I can see Bulger "protecting" Accardo by downplaying his affiliation. Even saying Giancana was unable to control the "Young Turks" could have been a way to reduce his liability.

Which part is the baby though? When you posted about Smith’s claims, you said that there was “useful information”. I’m not sure how useful any of it is, personally, but I’m not sure which parts you think are useful. That Capezio was boss from 1952 to 1957? This is almost certainly false. Bill Bonanno tells us that Accardo had been boss until 1956, when he stepped down and Giancana was introduced to the Commission as the new boss of Chicago. Bill got a number of things wrong, particularly about older history, but I’m inclined to take Bill at face value there as Bill said that he was actually a witness to that meeting as he was in attendance as an aide to his father, which I see no reason to doubt.

None of our Chicago informants are perfect. This is an early source who we know was connected and possibly made. We don't know the full context of their conversations or the nuances that may have been missed. We also don't even know if the dates came from Bulger or Smith.

What I think is useful is the internal titles (which are probably colloquial) for the top positions. While his claims about who held those positions are partially mistaken, I think there's something useful in being aware of the titles themselves. I also think the names he gave provide insight into the development of information about Chicago. Just the fact that he admitted Daddono et al were part of the Outfit and under Giancana in 1959 is historically significant in itself. And the fact that Bulger talked to Sandy Smith at all is valuable in itself. So I think it's a mistake to dismiss everything he said because of errors that we can easily figure out.

[B.]

Error-ridden account aside, "the Man" as it is described there is consistent with secretary of the consiglio which is confirmed now in Chicago during that era.

[B.]

With regard to Chicago consiglio members Ricca and Accardo serving as acting bosses when Giancana left the country, FBI commentary in context w/ a taped conversation of James Lanza showed that consiglio secretary Stefano Zoccoli and fellow consigliere Phil Morici served as acting bosses together when Cerrito was out of town.

zoccolimorici.png

This was the same conversation where Lanza discussed how Zoccoli had the power to go directly to the Commission to request that Cerrito be chastised or even deposed -- New York could send a representative to San Jose to help resolve the matter. This is different from Chicago in the sense that San Jose answered to another Family on the Commission while Chicago represented themselves and another group of Families but Zoccoli's position is roughly equivalent in many ways to Accardo and Ricca, they were just in different Families and you can't compare Chicago and San Jose on an operational level but they used the same formal structure.

Consiglio secretary in San Jose was an elected position with a confirmed succession:

election.png

We don't have this kind of insight into other Families with a consiglio but it's unlikely these formal processes were invented in San Jose. You could use this absence of evidence to say that Chicago's consiglio operated differently or just as easily assume it worked similarly given it was the same body.

[Eline2015]

I think, that position "chairman of consiglio" - only a consigliere

[B.]

I think, that position "chairman of consiglio" - only a consigliere

I agree to some degree. I believe the chairman/secretary of the consiglio was a close equivalent of what we call official consigliere in many Families but in a group with a consiglio it meant presiding over a group of other consiglieri and distributing some of the singular consigliere's functions among a group. The secretary also acted w/ a higher level of authority given he chaired a group that included not only other Family leaders but also the boss himself.

--

I've never liked "the man" discussion because it revolves around a casual euphemism, like "outfit". Crapisi in KC said boss Joe Civella was "the man" but answered to Cusumano and especially Filardo. If we apply the Chicago reference to this, Filardo should be "the man" and not Civella. But it doesn't matter because what was being referred to was not a unique position called "the man" but a casual phrase used to refer to individuals with a different formal rank.

"The man" could be a boss, underboss, consigliere, captain, or even soldier depending on who was being talked about and why. Phrases are interesting in their own right but too much emphasis has been placed on these casual euphemisms in certain Families.

[Eline2015]

I think, that position "chairman of consiglio" - only a consigliere

I agree to some degree. I believe the chairman/secretary of the consiglio was a close equivalent of what we call official consigliere in many Families but in a group with a consiglio it meant presiding over a group of other consiglieri and distributing some of the singular consigliere's functions among a group. The secretary also acted w/ a higher level of authority given he chaired a group that included not only other Family leaders but also the boss himself.

So, technically chairman could be even a soldier?

[B.]

I think, that position "chairman of consiglio" - only a consigliere

I agree to some degree. I believe the chairman/secretary of the consiglio was a close equivalent of what we call official consigliere in many Families but in a group with a consiglio it meant presiding over a group of other consiglieri and distributing some of the singular consigliere's functions among a group. The secretary also acted w/ a higher level of authority given he chaired a group that included not only other Family leaders but also the boss himself.

So, technically chairman could be even a soldier?

We don't really know how all of the council members were seen. A chairman could have been a soldier before he was elected but given it was a formal position it may have been the same as a soldier elected as boss -- he's now the chairman or boss. However someone who was simply elected to sit on the council may have still been a soldier. A boss, underboss, or captain on the consiglio still held that rank but was also a consigliere it just had a different function/meaning than the official consigliere sort of like a boss who has a decina directly under him -- he's the boss, not a captain, but he is also a capodecina on some level by definition. A soldier elected to sit on the council may have still technically been a soldier but had a seat or vote in high-level matters.

We have many examples or suspected examples of the consiglio existing but very little info breaking down those details. Based on what's available I believe they all worked similarly in formal terms but operationally it varied depending on the Family or individuals involved. That's true of every position in the mafia hierarchy from boss to soldier or even associate so the council would be no different.

I've wondered if some of the confusion over Priziola in Detroit related to this. Bomp knew him personally and consistently identified him as underboss multiple times. However Scott Burnstein is adamant that Priziola was the consigliere and was told this by Tony Zerilli. Angelo found a wiretap of Tony Z implying Priziola presided over Detroit's council. A possibile reconciliation is that Priziola was the underboss but as a council member also a consigliere. If he was both the underboss and council chairman it would be even more confusing and I could see Tony Z seeing him as THE consigliere even if he was the underboss of the admin. I don't think we have evidence from that era that Detroit had a single person with the title of official consigliere which is consistent with the consiglio in other Families. If this theory is accurate it means the council chairman could also hold a different rank in the admin.

[Eline2015]

I think, that position "chairman of consiglio" - only a consigliere

I agree to some degree. I believe the chairman/secretary of the consiglio was a close equivalent of what we call official consigliere in many Families but in a group with a consiglio it meant presiding over a group of other consiglieri and distributing some of the singular consigliere's functions among a group. The secretary also acted w/ a higher level of authority given he chaired a group that included not only other Family leaders but also the boss himself.

So, technically chairman could be even a soldier?

We don't really know how all of the council members were seen. A chairman could have been a soldier before he was elected but given it was a formal position it may have been the same as a soldier elected as boss -- he's now the chairman or boss. However someone who was simply elected to sit on the council may have still been a soldier. A boss, underboss, or captain on the consiglio still held that rank but was also a consigliere it just had a different function/meaning than the official consigliere sort of like a boss who has a decina directly under him -- he's the boss, not a captain, but he is also a capodecina on some level by definition. A soldier elected to sit on the council may have still technically been a soldier but had a seat or vote in high-level matters.

We have many examples or suspected examples of the consiglio existing but very little info breaking down those details. Based on what's available I believe they all worked similarly in formal terms but operationally it varied depending on the Family or individuals involved. That's true of every position in the mafia hierarchy from boss to soldier or even associate so the council would be no different.

I've wondered if some of the confusion over Priziola in Detroit related to this. Bomp knew him personally and consistently identified him as underboss multiple times. However Scott Burnstein is adamant that Priziola was the consigliere and was told this by Tony Zerilli. Angelo found a wiretap of Tony Z implying Priziola presided over Detroit's council. A possibile reconciliation is that Priziola was the underboss but as a council member also a consigliere. If he was both the underboss and council chairman it would be even more confusing and I could see Tony Z seeing him as THE consigliere even if he was the underboss of the admin. I don't think we have evidence from that era that Detroit had a single person with the title of official consigliere which is consistent with the consiglio in other Families. If this theory is accurate it means the council chairman could also hold a different rank in the admin.

I'm sorry for asking stupid questions, it's just that this question haunts me because of Ricky. You said that he was the chairman. I thought the chairman was automatically a consigliere. For example, that after his release, Ricca, since he was chairman, was a consigliere under Accardo. And then Accardo succeeded him in 1972 as consigliere chairman.