Organization & Operation revisited

[chin_gigante]

I don't see the organisational/ operational distinction as a 'guess', I see it as the most useful term we have as researchers to give to an observed process or understanding within cosa nostra that has no name. And those observations are based off of collecting, comparing, and contrasting statements made (be that from witness testimony, tell-all books, wiretaps, etc) by inducted members.

The simplest example I can think of is from the commission in the early 1980s. Vincent Gigante was frustrated about being called to meetings to discuss the construction business, and felt the commission should be reserved for matters pertaining to cosa nostra. There's no name for that distinction within cosa nostra, they get it, but it's useful for us as researchers. Gigante wanted to reserve commission meetings to matters relating to cosa nostra (the organisation), not construction (an operation). I say academic because this is a conversation very much about how we conduct research and evaluate information, but organisational/ operational isn't a hypothesis or conjecture, it's a label we can apply to observed modes of activity within cosa nostra.

A more recent example I'd point to is Steven Crea's position in the Lucchese family in the 2010s. Our best source of information from that period is obviously John Pennisi since he was an inducted member who was active on the street at that time. When discussing his administration, Pennisi has made it clear that while Crea's rank and title in the organisation was official underboss, guys on the street viewed him effectively as the guy really running the family. There was even a point from 2015 to early 2017 when Crea was (in organisational terms) the highest ranking member on the street as official boss Vic Amuso and acting boss Matthew Madonna were in prison. Then from 2016 to 2017, Crea was the only administration member on the street after consigliere Joe DiNapoli was also incarcerated. But Pennisi is clear that Crea officially was the underboss during that time, he was not even granted the role of acting boss. Operationally, it's clear, Crea was the one running the family at the time and the one member that was looked to as their 'guy', but organisationally he was the underboss. Now Pennisi doesn't use the organisational/ operational term but he doesn't have to. As an insider, he comes with an intrinsic understanding of the situation and is able to keep the distinction between Crea's rank and his de facto power clear in his head. He spells it out the way he does not for his own benefit but for his audience's.

I see the same thing playing out in the Colombo family over recent years. While Andrew Russo was the official boss of the family, it's clear that Teddy Persico was the real power behind the scenes. The government gathered intelligence from recorded conversations of captains stating that Persico had 'final say' over issues and could overrule Benji Castellazzo, the official underboss. It would be accurate to refer to Persico therefore as the real de-facto boss of the family, but this was not his official rank. In organisational terms, he was a captain without a crew. That's how I look at it. If Persico was to be introduced to another member during that time, he'd be introduced as a captain, not as the boss of the family. That's organisational to me. Now, the third party may pull the other member aside and say, 'Look, Teddy's our guy', but that's operational. That's not to say the operational isn't important, it's hugely important. You can't get an accurate picture of the family during that period without looking at Persico's clout, but it's a different mode of authority.

That's why I say the organisational/ operational thing is the farthest thing from a guess. It's a useful term used for us to apply to a very real distinction we observe within cosa nostra.

[Villain]

I don't see the organisational/ operational distinction as a 'guess', I see it as the most useful term we have as researchers to give to an observed process or understanding within cosa nostra that has no name. And those observations are based off of collecting, comparing, and contrasting statements made (be that from witness testimony, tell-all books, wiretaps, etc) by inducted members.

Same thing goes with my research (more than 10 years) on the Outfit, but I always look for sources or a straight answer. As you can see most of my previously posted evidences/"academic" guesses (followed by sources) are constantly looked upon from someones personal opinion (similar to egoistic), and so from his own perspective and "academic" guesses, Im wrong right?!

That's why I say the organisational/ operational thing is the farthest thing from a guess. It's a useful term used for us to apply to a very real distinction we observe within cosa nostra.

Dont get mad but to me it still sounds like educated guess which is not supported by any type of straight answer. Yes we have hunderds of examples but as I can see, some of them are misinterpreted or are only seen from someones personal view, as I already said.

We still have lots of questions if this type of thing really applied for all the families around the US (in my case Chicago). My personal opinion is still "no" and Ill go with Scott's and Binders points of views.

[CornerBoy]

how long was madonna on the street as acting boss?

Granddaughter is hot as shit

[Angelo Santino]

structure consisting of Top Boss, Senior Advisor, Boss, Underboss,

I think this info comes from a made member and this how the orders went down, something which corresponds with half of your "funny" statement. There was a governing board (top boss, boss, advisor and underboss (sometimes known as relay man) )and below them was the board of directors which also included a non-Ital.

Alex represented the south sidegroup, first ward and loop, Prio represented the north side group while Alderisio represented the west.



And yeah, Chicago was a little bit different, as I already said in my upper or last post to B. Im not saying they werent CN family and that they didnt operate under southern Italian rules, but still as you can see there was something different.

‐-------------

In my upper post I already asked B, but ill ask you too...do you have any file with at least few made guys using the terms operational vs organizational? Or is it just an educated guess?

He's describing operational, not organizational and the way its described doesn't come across like he's a member. An incarcerated boss maintaining contact with his acting on the street through his attorney and an informant describes how contact is maintained doesn't make this attorney part of the formal organization.

Org vs Op is a methodology to help better understand how these groups are structured and how they actually function. You will never hear it on wiretaps because it's an outsider rendition, one endorsed by DiLeonardo and others members when I explained the science behind it. To them it was "common knowledge" and my explaining it was like explaining the steps of putting on a shoe. People just put on shoes they don't think about it.

There is no such thing as "southern Italian rules." Southern Italy and Sicily, in terms of what we're discussing, were very different. But it doesn't matter because the Mafia comes from Sicily and the American phenomenon reflects that fully 100%. Groups like the Pittsburgh, Patriarcas or the Genovese had more mainlanders than Sicilians by the 1960's yet they still followed the Sicilian Mafia structure and system. It's easy, it works and it has withstood the test of time. 120-140 Mafia families in the world, there is not one single instance or evidence of a family adopting a different hierarchy or changing the rules to include non-member members. 100 screenshots of Italians including non-Italians in business decisions is not going to change this fact.

Respectfully, I can't keep going in circles with you. You are posting the same stuff that you did in the Chicago creation thread and the non-Ital thread that both Tony and Eric already struck it down. My doing it a third time is not going to change your perspective. If you want Chicago to have some weird hierarchy that includes non-member bosses then you are arguing that it's not a Mafia Family. Which goes against what the formal made members from LA to NY to Chicago itself have explained or articulated.

I don't know where else to go with you on this.

[chin_gigante]

Dont get mad but to me it still sounds like educated guess which is not supported by any type of straight answer. Yes we have hunderds of examples but as I can see, some of them are misinterpreted or are only seen from someones personal view, as I already said.

We still have lots of questions if this type of thing really applied for all the families around the US (in my case Chicago). My personal opinion is still "no" and Ill go with Scott's and Binders points of views.

I guess what I'm saying is I'm not sure why you think the operational/ organisational thing is a 'guess.' Are you arguing that there's no distinction between organisational hierarchy and operational authority over speficic rackets or enterprises?

[Villain]

structure consisting of Top Boss, Senior Advisor, Boss, Underboss,

I think this info comes from a made member and this how the orders went down, something which corresponds with half of your "funny" statement. There was a governing board (top boss, boss, advisor and underboss (sometimes known as relay man) )and below them was the board of directors which also included a non-Ital.

Alex represented the south sidegroup, first ward and loop, Prio represented the north side group while Alderisio represented the west.



And yeah, Chicago was a little bit different, as I already said in my upper or last post to B. Im not saying they werent CN family and that they didnt operate under southern Italian rules, but still as you can see there was something different.

‐-------------

In my upper post I already asked B, but ill ask you too...do you have any file with at least few made guys using the terms operational vs organizational? Or is it just an educated guess?

He's describing operational, not organizational and the way its described doesn't come across like he's a member. An incarcerated boss maintaining contact with his acting on the street through his attorney and an informant describes how contact is maintained doesn't make this attorney part of the formal organization.

Org vs Op is a methodology to help better understand how these groups are structured and how they actually function. You will never hear it on wiretaps because it's an outsider rendition, one endorsed by DiLeonardo and others members when I explained the science behind it. To them it was "common knowledge" and my explaining it was like explaining the steps of putting on a shoe. People just put on shoes they don't think about it.

There is no such thing as "southern Italian rules." Southern Italy and Sicily, in terms of what we're discussing, were very different. But it doesn't matter because the Mafia comes from Sicily and the American phenomenon reflects that fully 100%. Groups like the Pittsburgh, Patriarcas or the Genovese had more mainlanders than Sicilians by the 1960's yet they still followed the Sicilian Mafia structure and system. It's easy, it works and it has withstood the test of time. 120-140 Mafia families in the world, there is not one single instance or evidence of a family adopting a different hierarchy or changing the rules to include non-member members. 100 screenshots of Italians including non-Italians in business decisions is not going to change this fact.

Respectfully, I can't keep going in circles with you. You are posting the same stuff that you did in the Chicago creation thread and the non-Ital thread that both Tony and Eric already struck it down. My doing it a third time is not going to change your perspective. If you want Chicago to have some weird hierarchy that includes non-member bosses then you are arguing that it's not a Mafia Family. Which goes against what the formal made members from LA to NY to Chicago itself have explained or articulated.

I don't know where else to go with you on this.

Damn, i knew that you were also going to break down. I was talking about official spots and i only asked you for evidence. Sorry for ruining your "Lets make Chicago completely Sicilian again" campaign. We disagree and pls stop answering my posts. I dont care if you are a mod or shit like that. Just ignore me.

[Villain]

Dont get mad but to me it still sounds like educated guess which is not supported by any type of straight answer. Yes we have hunderds of examples but as I can see, some of them are misinterpreted or are only seen from someones personal view, as I already said.

We still have lots of questions if this type of thing really applied for all the families around the US (in my case Chicago). My personal opinion is still "no" and Ill go with Scott's and Binders points of views.

I guess what I'm saying is I'm not sure why you think the operational/ organisational thing is a 'guess.' Are you arguing that there's no distinction between organisational hierarchy and operational authority over speficic rackets or enterprises?

Im looking for a straight answer. I think the whole operational vs organization thing in the US mafia is pure bullshit, thats it. I have the right to have my own opinion right?

[Angelo Santino]

structure consisting of Top Boss, Senior Advisor, Boss, Underboss,

I think this info comes from a made member and this how the orders went down, something which corresponds with half of your "funny" statement. There was a governing board (top boss, boss, advisor and underboss (sometimes known as relay man) )and below them was the board of directors which also included a non-Ital.

Alex represented the south sidegroup, first ward and loop, Prio represented the north side group while Alderisio represented the west.



And yeah, Chicago was a little bit different, as I already said in my upper or last post to B. Im not saying they werent CN family and that they didnt operate under southern Italian rules, but still as you can see there was something different.

‐-------------

In my upper post I already asked B, but ill ask you too...do you have any file with at least few made guys using the terms operational vs organizational? Or is it just an educated guess?

He's describing operational, not organizational and the way its described doesn't come across like he's a member. An incarcerated boss maintaining contact with his acting on the street through his attorney and an informant describes how contact is maintained doesn't make this attorney part of the formal organization.

Org vs Op is a methodology to help better understand how these groups are structured and how they actually function. You will never hear it on wiretaps because it's an outsider rendition, one endorsed by DiLeonardo and others members when I explained the science behind it. To them it was "common knowledge" and my explaining it was like explaining the steps of putting on a shoe. People just put on shoes they don't think about it.

There is no such thing as "southern Italian rules." Southern Italy and Sicily, in terms of what we're discussing, were very different. But it doesn't matter because the Mafia comes from Sicily and the American phenomenon reflects that fully 100%. Groups like the Pittsburgh, Patriarcas or the Genovese had more mainlanders than Sicilians by the 1960's yet they still followed the Sicilian Mafia structure and system. It's easy, it works and it has withstood the test of time. 120-140 Mafia families in the world, there is not one single instance or evidence of a family adopting a different hierarchy or changing the rules to include non-member members. 100 screenshots of Italians including non-Italians in business decisions is not going to change this fact.

Respectfully, I can't keep going in circles with you. You are posting the same stuff that you did in the Chicago creation thread and the non-Ital thread that both Tony and Eric already struck it down. My doing it a third time is not going to change your perspective. If you want Chicago to have some weird hierarchy that includes non-member bosses then you are arguing that it's not a Mafia Family. Which goes against what the formal made members from LA to NY to Chicago itself have explained or articulated.

I don't know where else to go with you on this.

Damn, i knew that you were also going to break down. I was talking about official spots and i only asked you for evidence. Sorry for ruining your "Lets make Chicago completely Sicilian again" campaign. We disagree and pls stop answering my posts. I dont care if you are a mod or shit like that. Just ignore me.

You entered my thread and responded to me, not the other way around. I don't go into your Chicago fantasy threads and argue with you. You then tried to take us down a rabbit hole on Saint Gus Alex as a shield for your belief that Chicago is "different," that it doesn't follow the mafia structure, when the made members of that family and others providing info on Chicago don't make any reference to the things you are claiming. You are entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.

Good day to you.

[Villain]

structure consisting of Top Boss, Senior Advisor, Boss, Underboss,

I think this info comes from a made member and this how the orders went down, something which corresponds with half of your "funny" statement. There was a governing board (top boss, boss, advisor and underboss (sometimes known as relay man) )and below them was the board of directors which also included a non-Ital.

Alex represented the south sidegroup, first ward and loop, Prio represented the north side group while Alderisio represented the west.



And yeah, Chicago was a little bit different, as I already said in my upper or last post to B. Im not saying they werent CN family and that they didnt operate under southern Italian rules, but still as you can see there was something different.

‐-------------

In my upper post I already asked B, but ill ask you too...do you have any file with at least few made guys using the terms operational vs organizational? Or is it just an educated guess?

He's describing operational, not organizational and the way its described doesn't come across like he's a member. An incarcerated boss maintaining contact with his acting on the street through his attorney and an informant describes how contact is maintained doesn't make this attorney part of the formal organization.

Org vs Op is a methodology to help better understand how these groups are structured and how they actually function. You will never hear it on wiretaps because it's an outsider rendition, one endorsed by DiLeonardo and others members when I explained the science behind it. To them it was "common knowledge" and my explaining it was like explaining the steps of putting on a shoe. People just put on shoes they don't think about it.

There is no such thing as "southern Italian rules." Southern Italy and Sicily, in terms of what we're discussing, were very different. But it doesn't matter because the Mafia comes from Sicily and the American phenomenon reflects that fully 100%. Groups like the Pittsburgh, Patriarcas or the Genovese had more mainlanders than Sicilians by the 1960's yet they still followed the Sicilian Mafia structure and system. It's easy, it works and it has withstood the test of time. 120-140 Mafia families in the world, there is not one single instance or evidence of a family adopting a different hierarchy or changing the rules to include non-member members. 100 screenshots of Italians including non-Italians in business decisions is not going to change this fact.

Respectfully, I can't keep going in circles with you. You are posting the same stuff that you did in the Chicago creation thread and the non-Ital thread that both Tony and Eric already struck it down. My doing it a third time is not going to change your perspective. If you want Chicago to have some weird hierarchy that includes non-member bosses then you are arguing that it's not a Mafia Family. Which goes against what the formal made members from LA to NY to Chicago itself have explained or articulated.

I don't know where else to go with you on this.

Damn, i knew that you were also going to break down. I was talking about official spots and i only asked you for evidence. Sorry for ruining your "Lets make Chicago completely Sicilian again" campaign. We disagree and pls stop answering my posts. I dont care if you are a mod or shit like that. Just ignore me.

You entered my thread and responded to me, not the other way around. I don't go into your Chicago fantasy threads and argue with you. You then tried to take us down a rabbit hole on Saint Gus Alex as a shield for your belief that Chicago is "different," that it doesn't follow the mafia structure, when the made members of that family and others providing info on Chicago don't make any reference to the things you are claiming. You are entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.

Good day to you.

Look at my new avatar anonymous 1 aka Angelo..... cheers and nice knowing you

[chin_gigante]

Dont get mad but to me it still sounds like educated guess which is not supported by any type of straight answer. Yes we have hunderds of examples but as I can see, some of them are misinterpreted or are only seen from someones personal view, as I already said.

We still have lots of questions if this type of thing really applied for all the families around the US (in my case Chicago). My personal opinion is still "no" and Ill go with Scott's and Binders points of views.

I guess what I'm saying is I'm not sure why you think the operational/ organisational thing is a 'guess.' Are you arguing that there's no distinction between organisational hierarchy and operational authority over speficic rackets or enterprises?

Im looking for a straight answer. I think the whole operational vs organization thing in the US mafia is pure bullshit, thats it. I have the right to have my own opinion right?

That's fair enough but I just don't see that myself at all. I think we fundamentally disagree on this.

[Villain]

Dont get mad but to me it still sounds like educated guess which is not supported by any type of straight answer. Yes we have hunderds of examples but as I can see, some of them are misinterpreted or are only seen from someones personal view, as I already said.

We still have lots of questions if this type of thing really applied for all the families around the US (in my case Chicago). My personal opinion is still "no" and Ill go with Scott's and Binders points of views.

I guess what I'm saying is I'm not sure why you think the operational/ organisational thing is a 'guess.' Are you arguing that there's no distinction between organisational hierarchy and operational authority over speficic rackets or enterprises?

Im looking for a straight answer. I think the whole operational vs organization thing in the US mafia is pure bullshit, thats it. I have the right to have my own opinion right?

That's fair enough but I just don't see that myself at all. I think we fundamentally disagree on this.

I dont know if I have the "right" to post in this thread since im quite scared lol but.......thanks for the honest answer bud and I respect that and in fact im quite happy about it. Ill enter the minority because....."“truth always rests with the minority, and the minority is always stronger than the majority, because the minority is generally formed by those who really have an opinion"

Thanks again bud and keep up the good work. Ill stop posting on this thread. Cheers

[Angelo Santino]

Dont get mad but to me it still sounds like educated guess which is not supported by any type of straight answer. Yes we have hunderds of examples but as I can see, some of them are misinterpreted or are only seen from someones personal view, as I already said.

We still have lots of questions if this type of thing really applied for all the families around the US (in my case Chicago). My personal opinion is still "no" and Ill go with Scott's and Binders points of views.

I guess what I'm saying is I'm not sure why you think the operational/ organisational thing is a 'guess.' Are you arguing that there's no distinction between organisational hierarchy and operational authority over speficic rackets or enterprises?

Im looking for a straight answer. I think the whole operational vs organization thing in the US mafia is pure bullshit, thats it. I have the right to have my own opinion right?

That's fair enough but I just don't see that myself at all. I think we fundamentally disagree on this.

I dont know if I have the "right" to post in this thread since im quite scared lol but.......thanks for the honest answer bud and I respect that and in fact im quite happy about it. Ill enter the minority because....."“truth always rests with the minority, and the minority is always stronger than the majority, because the minority is generally formed by those who really have an opinion"

Thanks again bud and keep up the good work. Ill stop posting on this thread. Cheers

No worries, falls under operational. I'm a mod (capo) and I have the power to go to the boss and argue that so and so should be banned (organizational) but wanting to ban someone over a disagreement (operational) would not be acceptable.

[Guest]

Dont get mad but to me it still sounds like educated guess which is not supported by any type of straight answer. Yes we have hunderds of examples but as I can see, some of them are misinterpreted or are only seen from someones personal view, as I already said.

We still have lots of questions if this type of thing really applied for all the families around the US (in my case Chicago). My personal opinion is still "no" and Ill go with Scott's and Binders points of views.

I guess what I'm saying is I'm not sure why you think the operational/ organisational thing is a 'guess.' Are you arguing that there's no distinction between organisational hierarchy and operational authority over speficic rackets or enterprises?

Im looking for a straight answer. I think the whole operational vs organization thing in the US mafia is pure bullshit, thats it. I have the right to have my own opinion right?

That's fair enough but I just don't see that myself at all. I think we fundamentally disagree on this.

I dont know if I have the "right" to post in this thread since im quite scared lol but.......thanks for the honest answer bud and I respect that and in fact im quite happy about it. Ill enter the minority because....."“truth always rests with the minority, and the minority is always stronger than the majority, because the minority is generally formed by those who really have an opinion"

Thanks again bud and keep up the good work. Ill stop posting on this thread. Cheers

No worries, falls under operational. I'm a mod (capo) and I have the power to go to the boss and argue that so and so should be banned (organizational) but wanting to ban someone over a disagreement (operational) would not be acceptable.

Heres some additional reason to ban me....suck my nuts Angelina

[Villain]

.....oh yeah that was me Angelina ...YOUR PERSONAL FORUM logged me off

[InCamelot]

This probably isn't helpful at this point nor do I have the credibility to speak on this subject directly, but I did discern before this thread was ever made that Villain's recent disagreements with B and I think PolackTony were rooted in the fact he doesn't agree that 'organizational vs operational' is a thing (ie: the Non-Italians in the Outfit thread) -- even if they've never actually explicitly said that to each other.

To be fair it took me a minute as well. I had to listen to that episode of Mob Arch a few times and really mull that concept over first. And I still have to to remind myself of the difference when guys are talking about something within that context.