Organization & Operation revisited

[Angelo Santino]

I wouldn't call it protocol and tradition. It's an accommodation to living in the U.S. The Italians and Italian-Americans who make up the Cosa Nostra don't live in an island where they only deal with those who share their ethnicity. It's simply not possible. Working with outsiders is both practical and necessary, but it's categorically different than a Cosa Nostra tradition or rule.

Jimmy Fratianno, for example, told Mike Rizzitello to wait outside while they discussed certain matters relevant to Cosa Nostra because he wasn't a member at that time. Others have written about similar examples. I imagine in Chicago if they discussed the Commission even Gus Alex would have to leave the room. Alex could be like a captain or an underboss, but he could never be an actual captain or underboss in the Outfit because he could never become a made member. Alex was a powerful associate with powers granted to him by Ricca and Accardo, but outside of Chicago no other borgata would have to recognize his special status. When a captain like Frank Laporte traveled around, he was always recognized as a captain.

So because of Alex's status he was allowed to vote and make decisions on certain things, but those powers were limited. Alex could vote on a mid-level round table, but he wasn't on the Consiglio. He couldn't make high-level decisions.

I would even go a step further and say that mafia members and non-members enjoy a deeper relationship than the term "associate" would convey. That implies that its purely transactional and that's, in many instances, simply not the case. Rockman was Scalish' brother in law, Alex grew up with these guys. There's a personal friendship and respect there that the term "associate" doesn't articulate.

I could be Irish McAngelo, I married the boss' sister, my three sisters married 3 captains and I maintain a personal relationship with the boss, we go fishing together. I also am trusted to manage certain financial proceeds generated... still, not a member, I fall under operational. It's black and white. Outsiders would describe me as "like a member" or "like a capo," but to the organization- I am not. If a members-only meeting were to be held, I would not be allowed in.

[Villain]

So because of Alex's status he was allowed to vote and make decisions on certain things, but those powers were limited. Alex could vote on a mid-level round table, but he wasn't on the Consiglio. He couldn't make high-level decisions.

What about the early 70's? We have at least three informants confirming that Alex was able making high level decisions with Accardo and Aiuppa

[B.]

So because of Alex's status he was allowed to vote and make decisions on certain things, but those powers were limited. Alex could vote on a mid-level round table, but he wasn't on the Consiglio. He couldn't make high-level decisions.

What about the early 70's? We have at least three informants confirming that Alex was able making high level decisions with Accardo and Aiuppa

We already addressed that in your other thread. Blasi explicitly said Alex was limited because he was a non-Italian (non-member). Nobody dismisses Alex's influence but he was not a made member or official leader of the Chicago outfit, which is one organization with a large sphere of influence that included powerful non-Italians.

[Angelo Santino]

Financial falls under operational. If said "non-Italian 'boss'" isn't a formal member then he's not part of the organization and never can be and the members themselves aren't confused by this. But the fact that this "non-Italian 'boss'" enjoys a large degree of respect and deference only boasts his credentials, his not being a formal member doesn't take anything away from his status.

Guys like Rockman, Watts, Alex, Lanksy are one-in-a million and labeling them "just associates" is true from an organizational perspective but misleading from an operational one. The history of the American Mafia cannot be told accurately by excluding these individuals.

You're completely right regarding your last senetence but I think that this falls completely in "organizational" because we are not talking about some operation or scheme...we are talking about protocol and TRADITION that went all around the country (all the families) for decades

They're not formal members and hence not part of the organization. Their power/influence with members of the organization stems from someone already within it. Let's use Watts as an example. Gotti would pass orders to others (including members) through him and no one would question Watts passing an order. Then Gotti dies and Pete becomes boss and lets say he hates Watts. He could approach Watts, disrespect him, order him to hand over all of his money or he and his family would be murdered. Watts would have no recourse, no defense, his power was an extention of Gotti in that world. But that didn't happen because that's generally not how Italians behave, that's the movies.

Angelo, my man, thanks again BUT I asked you about protocol and tradition which lasted/lasts for decades (if not centuries), not about Gotti passing orders through Watts...see my previous question again and think about it...take your time

Was that a question? I thought you were making a statement.

Having a seat on the round table + voting = protocol

Taking care of widows and families of deceased or imprisoned Italian made members and Italian bosses + protocol = tradition

Right?

Falls under operational. Mafia as an organization does not have a set-standard for how to deal with members deceased families. "Taking care" would involve financial disperses and there's no rule that prohibits non-members from taking part in such talks granted he attains that level of trust and confidence with those holding the highest offices.

I agree but dont you think that 90% of the ORGANIZATIONAL cases are mainly tied to financies? Meaning the system of representation is mainly created by financies. Without it, there would be no system, right? Because whats the point of it? We are talking about CRIMINAL subculture here, right?

No. As I previously said, you need org and op, they go hand in hand. The mafia is a network and its members can utilize that network to generate money. There is no criminal quota. Mafia members don't wake up and ask how they can be the biggest criminal. It's a secret society that doesn't adhere to the laws of civil society but they adhere to the laws of their own society.

The organization is tied to conduct and protocol. If one member gets into a altercation with another member, the organization is there to mediate. It's not directly tied to criminality, its a byproduct of it because these members are willing to resort to criminality to fulfil their objectives. John Pennisi is the best at going into this, when he discusses "sitdowns" very rarely is it over a criminal racket but rather internal feuds and petty squabbles.

[Antiliar]

So because of Alex's status he was allowed to vote and make decisions on certain things, but those powers were limited. Alex could vote on a mid-level round table, but he wasn't on the Consiglio. He couldn't make high-level decisions.

What about the early 70's? We have at least three informants confirming that Alex was able making high level decisions with Accardo and Aiuppa

He still would have to get final approval for decisions, and he could never deal with the Commission. You also have to consider the source s of the information provided to the FBI. It was lower-level informants, probably Richard Cain or someone like him. No specific duties were listed.

[Angelo Santino]

[Associates are not allowed into an Organizational Family meeting.

Besides making guys, can you give me few examples regarding organizational family meeting?

Aside from ceremonies, the selection of a new boss.

When Gotti "took over" there was a meeting of him and the family capos where it was voted on. Watts wasn't invited.

[Villain]

So because of Alex's status he was allowed to vote and make decisions on certain things, but those powers were limited. Alex could vote on a mid-level round table, but he wasn't on the Consiglio. He couldn't make high-level decisions.

What about the early 70's? We have at least three informants confirming that Alex was able making high level decisions with Accardo and Aiuppa

We already addressed that in your other thread. Blasi explicitly said Alex was limited because he was a non-Italian (non-member). Nobody dismisses Alex's influence but he was not a made member or official leader of the Chicago outfit, which is one organization with a large sphere of influence that included powerful non-Italians.

Yes, we talked about that there was no way for Alex to become a made guy (obviously) BUT he obviously operated in the "souther Italian way" (followed protocol and traditiin) and sorry but i disagree that he wasnt recognized as official leader of the Outfit.

In 1956, Humphreys sat on the same table with Ricca, Accardo and Ferraro and voted on who qas going to be the boss or who was going to lead the Cosa Nostra organization.

(Damn im having a debate with 3 top researchers at the same time lol its like me against the world lol YEEEAAAHHH lol)

[Villain]

[Associates are not allowed into an Organizational Family meeting.

Besides making guys, can you give me few examples regarding organizational family meeting?

Aside from ceremonies, the selection of a new boss.

In 1956, Humphreys was the one who also had vote on who was going to lead the Cosa Nostra organization after Accardo.

[Villain]

So because of Alex's status he was allowed to vote and make decisions on certain things, but those powers were limited. Alex could vote on a mid-level round table, but he wasn't on the Consiglio. He couldn't make high-level decisions.

What about the early 70's? We have at least three informants confirming that Alex was able making high level decisions with Accardo and Aiuppa

He still would have to get final approval for decisions, and he could never deal with the Commission. You also have to consider the source s of the information provided to the FBI. It was lower-level informants, probably Richard Cain or someone like him. No specific duties were listed.

Read some of the files which I posted in my non-Italian thread. Lots of specific duties...especially regarding narcotics...which is some type of policy for the organization...no dealing with drugs, right coach?

[Angelo Santino]

[Associates are not allowed into an Organizational Family meeting.

Besides making guys, can you give me few examples regarding organizational family meeting?

Aside from ceremonies, the selection of a new boss.

In 1956, Humphreys was the one who also had vote on who was going to lead the Cosa Nostra organization after Accardo.

In 1976, Rockman told Cleveland that Scalish's dying wish was for Licavoli to succeed him. That doesn't equate to Rockman selecting the next boss.

In 1989, Watts told Gotti that "it was time to make Mikey Scars." That doesn't equate to Watts sponsoring DiLeonardo for membership.

[Angelo Santino]

So because of Alex's status he was allowed to vote and make decisions on certain things, but those powers were limited. Alex could vote on a mid-level round table, but he wasn't on the Consiglio. He couldn't make high-level decisions.

What about the early 70's? We have at least three informants confirming that Alex was able making high level decisions with Accardo and Aiuppa

He still would have to get final approval for decisions, and he could never deal with the Commission. You also have to consider the source s of the information provided to the FBI. It was lower-level informants, probably Richard Cain or someone like him. No specific duties were listed.

Read some of the files which I posted in my non-Italian thread. Lots of specific duties...especially regarding narcotics...which is some type of policy for the organization...no dealing with drugs, right coach?

All of which falls under operation.

[B.]

DeRose said initiation banquets could only be attended by members (all Italian) and that non-Italian associates could attend the celebration afterward. Same thing is done in NYC. That's a perfect example of an "organizational meeting" (initiation banquet) vs. an "operational meeting" (social event).

Gus Alex wasn't an official leader. He was a de facto leader authorized by the Family leadership and had a great amount of privilege and influence.

Are you referring to what Pierce said about Humphreys in 1956 or something else? He said a meeting was held to inform the top non-Italian associates of the leadership change and believed Humphreys was involved in the decision but he didn't have direct insight into the election from the inside. There was almost certainly a members-only meeting of the Consiglio where the actual decision was made to take Accardo down and a new boss was elected. That Humphreys was consulted and a meeting was held to inform select non-Italians speaks to their level of influence and respect in the Family's sphere of influence but it is one snippet into what was a much more complex process.

[Villain]

[Associates are not allowed into an Organizational Family meeting.

Besides making guys, can you give me few examples regarding organizational family meeting?

Aside from ceremonies, the selection of a new boss.

In 1956, Humphreys was the one who also had vote on who was going to lead the Cosa Nostra organization after Accardo.

In 1976, Rockman told Cleveland that Scalish's dying wish was for Licavoli to succeed him. That doesn't equate to Rockman selecting the next boss.

Maybe Rickman lied to them? LoL just kidding...im not talking about someones wish...im talking about seating on the round table...discussing and voting on who is going to lead the Cosa Nostra organization...for example....Accardo says "Cerone or Battaglia"...Ricca says "Giancana"...and Humphreys also says "Giancana"....and so Giancana becomes the boss. Thats it. Theres no two ways about it. Thats organizational.

[Villain]

DeRose said initiation banquets could only be attended by members (all Italian) and that non-Italian associates could attend the celebration afterward. Same thing is done in NYC. That's a perfect example of an "organizational meeting" (initiation banquet) vs. an "operational meeting" (social event).

Gus Alex wasn't an official leader. He was a de facto leader authorized by the Family leadership and had a great amount of privilege and influence.

Are you referring to what Pierce said about Humphreys in 1956 or something else? He said a meeting was held to inform the top non-Italian associates of the leadership change and believed Humphreys was involved in the decision but he didn't have direct insight into the election from the inside. There was almost certainly a members-only meeting of the Consiglio where the actual decision was made to take Accardo down and a new boss was elected. That Humphreys was consulted and a meeting was held to inform select non-Italians speaks to their level of influence and respect in the Family's sphere of influence but it is one snippet into what was a much more complex process.

Other non-Italian leaders were called AFTER the main meeting on which Humphreys was also previously present, so they can inform the rest of the organization.

[Villain]

Same meeting occurred when Giancana was ousted as boss and Battaglia became the new one