Non-Italians and the Chicago Outfit
Moderator: Capos
Non-Italians and the Chicago Outfit
I want to finish this debate once and for all because I can see some mob researchers still have lots of confusion regarding this same subject.
So this is my FINAL statement regarding the non-Italian faction in the Chicago Outfit and their OFFICIAL positions within the organizational structure of the Outfit, or as some call it the Chicago "Mafia"...
First ill give evidence regarding the non-Italians having their own spot on the Outfit's board of directors (or as some call it "consiglio") and after that ill show you evidence regarding Alex receiving much higher position within the organization.
Some mob researchers doesnt appreciate the info which was given by Outfit members such as Ralph Pierce, mainly because they were non-Italian, and I personally respect that but some of them forget that the Chicago "family" had more non-Italian "members" involved in the inner workings of the organization, than Italian made members who in turn always held the top spots and it seems that nobody disputes that fact. The information coming from a Italian made member holds more weight than the information from a Mob associate BUT, the point here is that the Chicago Outfit was different than most of the Sicilian or Mafia families around the US.
Again as I previously stated that some Mob researchers forget that mobsters such as Ralph Pierce were with the Outfit since the late 1920's and early 30s, or in other words they witnessed the Capone mob and all of the "evolution" of the organization that occurred during the following decades. I personally (and numerous other researchers also) appreciate the info which was given by someone who was in the Outfit for almost 50 years and on top of that we have Pierce being present on numerous top level meetings during the 1950's and 60's which included top bosses such Paul Ricca and Tony Accardo, situations which informants such as Butch Blasi, Ted DeRose or Lenny Gianola never experienced.
Back in those days the Chicago Outfit had many non-Italians as high ranking personas so it was not your traditional Sicilian Mafia. It has been very diverse but still it operated under the principals of Southern Italian organized crime. Some of the non-Italian district bosses were not “made” guys but they were not associates either. They were considered as members of the Outfit but not the national Cosa Nostra organization. It was like two parties in one organization with the Italians at the top, obviously because we are talking about the American-Italian Mafia here and the Outfit was part of it.
Back in 1962 the feds recorded a conversation with the help of a hidden wiretap, between Outfit made member and big shot Jack Cerone and Dave Yaras. Cerone bragged about some killings that he and his partner Johnny Whales, a Polack, pulled off in the old days. Unfortunately, one day Johnny allegedly went off his rocker and disappeared. He allegedly had become afraid of the Italians and told Cerone he feared that someone was trying to kill him. Than Cerone reminded Yaras that besides Italians, the Outfit also had Jews, Polacks etc., meaning the Chicago Outfit was a multi-ethnic organization.
This means that non-Italian top guys like Pierce, Patrick, Kruse etc. had their own territories and crews and were considered as district bosses who in turn mainly answered to their Italian or non-Italian representatives on the Outfit's board of the directors, such as Guzik, Humphreys, Alex etc.
Not all non-Italian crew bosses answered to the same representative since we have non-Itals from other crews such as the North Side or Chicago Heights who never interacted with the non-Italian bosses from the South Side group which in fact was the leading non-Italian group, meaning there wasnt some type of non-Italian group that was represented by one non-Italian boss on the Outfit's board of directors. Instead, if there was one high level non-Italian boss in one of the four factions, who was more powerful and respected by the rest of the Italian members from his own group, he usually received a seat on the Outfit's BOD and received authority over Italian made members, including soldiers and capos.
For example Jake Guzik was probably one of the first non-Italian bosses of the old Capone mob, later known as the Chicago Outfit, who probably held positions on both the Outfit's BOD and as boss of the Loop and the First Ward. When Guzik died in 1956, his position on the Outfit's BOD was taken by Murray Humphreys (one of the crew bosses who also belonged to the South Side group, same as Guzik) while Gus Alex took over Guzik's interests in the Loop and First Ward. So there were two different positions.
Now, here's one file regarding Humphreys having some high level spot, a position which required presence of the Outfit's family boss and other members, both made and non-Italian (besides having a seat on the BOD, Humphreys allegedly also had the last word on all union matters):
As we can see after the death of Humphreys, Gus Alex took his position and became representative on the Outfit's BOD, but these next files shows us that by the early 70's Alex received even more influential position than the previous one. The informant gave us so much details about it that doesnt make any difference if he was Italian made member or non-Italian Outfit member.
And also giving advice regarding policy of the organization aka involvement in narcotics....
So this is my FINAL statement regarding the non-Italian faction in the Chicago Outfit and their OFFICIAL positions within the organizational structure of the Outfit, or as some call it the Chicago "Mafia"...
First ill give evidence regarding the non-Italians having their own spot on the Outfit's board of directors (or as some call it "consiglio") and after that ill show you evidence regarding Alex receiving much higher position within the organization.
Some mob researchers doesnt appreciate the info which was given by Outfit members such as Ralph Pierce, mainly because they were non-Italian, and I personally respect that but some of them forget that the Chicago "family" had more non-Italian "members" involved in the inner workings of the organization, than Italian made members who in turn always held the top spots and it seems that nobody disputes that fact. The information coming from a Italian made member holds more weight than the information from a Mob associate BUT, the point here is that the Chicago Outfit was different than most of the Sicilian or Mafia families around the US.
Again as I previously stated that some Mob researchers forget that mobsters such as Ralph Pierce were with the Outfit since the late 1920's and early 30s, or in other words they witnessed the Capone mob and all of the "evolution" of the organization that occurred during the following decades. I personally (and numerous other researchers also) appreciate the info which was given by someone who was in the Outfit for almost 50 years and on top of that we have Pierce being present on numerous top level meetings during the 1950's and 60's which included top bosses such Paul Ricca and Tony Accardo, situations which informants such as Butch Blasi, Ted DeRose or Lenny Gianola never experienced.
Back in those days the Chicago Outfit had many non-Italians as high ranking personas so it was not your traditional Sicilian Mafia. It has been very diverse but still it operated under the principals of Southern Italian organized crime. Some of the non-Italian district bosses were not “made” guys but they were not associates either. They were considered as members of the Outfit but not the national Cosa Nostra organization. It was like two parties in one organization with the Italians at the top, obviously because we are talking about the American-Italian Mafia here and the Outfit was part of it.
Back in 1962 the feds recorded a conversation with the help of a hidden wiretap, between Outfit made member and big shot Jack Cerone and Dave Yaras. Cerone bragged about some killings that he and his partner Johnny Whales, a Polack, pulled off in the old days. Unfortunately, one day Johnny allegedly went off his rocker and disappeared. He allegedly had become afraid of the Italians and told Cerone he feared that someone was trying to kill him. Than Cerone reminded Yaras that besides Italians, the Outfit also had Jews, Polacks etc., meaning the Chicago Outfit was a multi-ethnic organization.
This means that non-Italian top guys like Pierce, Patrick, Kruse etc. had their own territories and crews and were considered as district bosses who in turn mainly answered to their Italian or non-Italian representatives on the Outfit's board of the directors, such as Guzik, Humphreys, Alex etc.
Not all non-Italian crew bosses answered to the same representative since we have non-Itals from other crews such as the North Side or Chicago Heights who never interacted with the non-Italian bosses from the South Side group which in fact was the leading non-Italian group, meaning there wasnt some type of non-Italian group that was represented by one non-Italian boss on the Outfit's board of directors. Instead, if there was one high level non-Italian boss in one of the four factions, who was more powerful and respected by the rest of the Italian members from his own group, he usually received a seat on the Outfit's BOD and received authority over Italian made members, including soldiers and capos.
For example Jake Guzik was probably one of the first non-Italian bosses of the old Capone mob, later known as the Chicago Outfit, who probably held positions on both the Outfit's BOD and as boss of the Loop and the First Ward. When Guzik died in 1956, his position on the Outfit's BOD was taken by Murray Humphreys (one of the crew bosses who also belonged to the South Side group, same as Guzik) while Gus Alex took over Guzik's interests in the Loop and First Ward. So there were two different positions.
Now, here's one file regarding Humphreys having some high level spot, a position which required presence of the Outfit's family boss and other members, both made and non-Italian (besides having a seat on the BOD, Humphreys allegedly also had the last word on all union matters):
As we can see after the death of Humphreys, Gus Alex took his position and became representative on the Outfit's BOD, but these next files shows us that by the early 70's Alex received even more influential position than the previous one. The informant gave us so much details about it that doesnt make any difference if he was Italian made member or non-Italian Outfit member.
And also giving advice regarding policy of the organization aka involvement in narcotics....
Do not be deceived, neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God - Corinthians 6:9-10
- chin_gigante
- Full Patched
- Posts: 2566
- Joined: Wed Aug 08, 2018 11:36 pm
Re: Non-Italians and the Chicago Outfit
Maybe I'm confused but isn't this just an operational vs organizational discussion?
'You don't go crucifying people outside a church; not on Good Friday.'
Re: Non-Italians and the Chicago Outfit
Thats my point. Alex breached the border from operational into organizational.chin_gigante wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 1:42 pm Maybe I'm confused but isn't this just an operational vs organizational discussion?
Do not be deceived, neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God - Corinthians 6:9-10
Re: Non-Italians and the Chicago Outfit
Ill repeat one of Marcy's (Italian made guy) statements regarding who was more into organization, which I believe fits perfectly in this thread...
MARCY: They’re all alike. You talk to Moe (Giancana), you talk to Teets (Battaglia), you talk to Marshall (Caifano), they’re all alike. These f*cks all got a one track mind, John, you can’t reason with these guys. The only guy that you can, that is half way sharp is Gus (Alex). But he’s strictly organization, no sh*t about it.
MARCY: They’re all alike. You talk to Moe (Giancana), you talk to Teets (Battaglia), you talk to Marshall (Caifano), they’re all alike. These f*cks all got a one track mind, John, you can’t reason with these guys. The only guy that you can, that is half way sharp is Gus (Alex). But he’s strictly organization, no sh*t about it.
Do not be deceived, neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God - Corinthians 6:9-10
Re: Non-Italians and the Chicago Outfit
Seems to be saying Alex is more open to reason than the names he mentioned but not at the organization's expense. Difficult to infer much beyond that. Associates by their very nature are part of the organizational system and respect it even if they're not made which is one of the reasons these leading associates have the role they do.Villain wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 2:18 pm Ill repeat one of Marcy's (Italian made guy) statements regarding who was more into organization, which I believe fits perfectly in this thread...
MARCY: They’re all alike. You talk to Moe (Giancana), you talk to Teets (Battaglia), you talk to Marshall (Caifano), they’re all alike. These f*cks all got a one track mind, John, you can’t reason with these guys. The only guy that you can, that is half way sharp is Gus (Alex). But he’s strictly organization, no sh*t about it.
Meyer Lansky was a Genovese associate but two sources (Giancana/Accardo bug and Frank Bompensiero) say he had a de facto voice on the Commission for the national Jewish element and a garment center source perceived Lansky to be more powerful than Tommy Lucchese in the industry. He's the most powerful non-member in American mafia history but formally he was an associate, as that role has no ceiling or floor and isn't a qualitative term in most cases. Alex and others were similar within Chicago -- powerful non-members with an influential role.
We can see the same idea even applies to made members. We've learned that Phil Alderisio was a soldier direct with Sam Giancana circa mid-1960s even though he was often perceived as something greater. It takes nothing away from his role and influence but in formal terms he was a soldier.
Re: Non-Italians and the Chicago Outfit
Thanks for the reply.B. wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 3:12 pmSeems to be saying Alex is more open to reason than the names he mentioned but not at the organization's expense. Difficult to infer much beyond that. Associates by their very nature are part of the organizational system and respect it even if they're not made which is one of the reasons these leading associates have the role they do.Villain wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 2:18 pm Ill repeat one of Marcy's (Italian made guy) statements regarding who was more into organization, which I believe fits perfectly in this thread...
MARCY: They’re all alike. You talk to Moe (Giancana), you talk to Teets (Battaglia), you talk to Marshall (Caifano), they’re all alike. These f*cks all got a one track mind, John, you can’t reason with these guys. The only guy that you can, that is half way sharp is Gus (Alex). But he’s strictly organization, no sh*t about it.
Meyer Lansky was a Genovese associate but two sources (Giancana/Accardo bug and Frank Bompensiero) say he had a de facto voice on the Commission for the national Jewish element and a garment center source perceived Lansky to be more powerful than Tommy Lucchese in the industry. He's the most powerful non-member in American mafia history but formally he was an associate, as that role has no ceiling or floor and isn't a qualitative term in most cases. Alex and others were similar within Chicago -- powerful non-members with an influential role.
We can see the same idea even applies to made members. We've learned that Phil Alderisio was a soldier direct with Sam Giancana circa mid-1960s even though he was often perceived as something greater. It takes nothing away from his role and influence but in formal terms he was a soldier.
When Battaglia was boss in 65, Alderisio was his number two guy. We have a comvo between Alderisio and Catuara in which we can see Phil had a larger status. What soldier?
Another question, do you have any info regarding Lansky asking for a list of hits from Catena, Lombardo or Miranda, so he can give them to the capos?
Do not be deceived, neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God - Corinthians 6:9-10
Re: Non-Italians and the Chicago Outfit
See here:
viewtopic.php?f=29&t=9459
Edit: the image links are broken:
In 1969 Phil Alderisio told Bompensiero and Fratianno that he and Marshall Caifano had been soldiers direct with Giancana during the period Fratianno claimed to have had the same arrangement. He also confirmed the existence of the Chicago consiglio, which Bomp referred to in Sicilian dialect.
I don't know the reference about Lansky and hits. It sounds similar to high-level associate Joe Watts of the Gambino Family giving a murder contract to capodecina Jack D'Amico, no doubt authorized to do so by the admin.
viewtopic.php?f=29&t=9459
Edit: the image links are broken:
In 1969 Phil Alderisio told Bompensiero and Fratianno that he and Marshall Caifano had been soldiers direct with Giancana during the period Fratianno claimed to have had the same arrangement. He also confirmed the existence of the Chicago consiglio, which Bomp referred to in Sicilian dialect.
I don't know the reference about Lansky and hits. It sounds similar to high-level associate Joe Watts of the Gambino Family giving a murder contract to capodecina Jack D'Amico, no doubt authorized to do so by the admin.
Re: Non-Italians and the Chicago Outfit
Alderisio is talking about the past right? That he and Caifano didnt need capos IN THE PAST so they were direct with Giancana who in turn was their childhood friend?
Do not be deceived, neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God - Corinthians 6:9-10
Re: Non-Italians and the Chicago Outfit
....regarding Alex, it seems he had some type of official position within the organizational structure of the Outfit which gave him power over made members.
Do not be deceived, neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God - Corinthians 6:9-10
Re: Non-Italians and the Chicago Outfit
Yeah, Alderisio is referring to the period Fratianno thought he was with Giancana and doesn't clarify his current position other than to say he sits in occasionally on meetings of the Family "Consignu".
Re: Non-Italians and the Chicago Outfit
First of all...Welcome back Villian! Where the hell have you been?
Great write up. Thanks for putting that together.
I do think there is a distinction here between the non-italian guys having very influential and powerful positions within the organization (which they certainly did), but not being fully inducted members of LCN or the "Mafia" group at the Outfits core. The more we have learned, the more we have realized that despite many labeling the outfit as "different" than other LCN families, the truth is that the key elements such as formal inductions and ranks were always a part of the organization. Additionally, we have seen evidence even today of the continuing cooperation and connection between Chicago LCN and other LCN families, including the NYC families. However, in many instances we can be sure that someone like a Gus Alex or Ralph Pierce has more de facto power than someone else who may have been a high ranking offical inducted member of the family.
The distinction being true La Cosa Nostra, vs. someone who had a powerful spot within the Chicago Outfit organization. I do agree 100% that these non-italians were way more involved and influential than in other families across the country. Chicago seems to have been continually structured more as a corporation, where if you could make money you could grow in power and influence, Italian or not.
Great write up. Thanks for putting that together.
I do think there is a distinction here between the non-italian guys having very influential and powerful positions within the organization (which they certainly did), but not being fully inducted members of LCN or the "Mafia" group at the Outfits core. The more we have learned, the more we have realized that despite many labeling the outfit as "different" than other LCN families, the truth is that the key elements such as formal inductions and ranks were always a part of the organization. Additionally, we have seen evidence even today of the continuing cooperation and connection between Chicago LCN and other LCN families, including the NYC families. However, in many instances we can be sure that someone like a Gus Alex or Ralph Pierce has more de facto power than someone else who may have been a high ranking offical inducted member of the family.
The distinction being true La Cosa Nostra, vs. someone who had a powerful spot within the Chicago Outfit organization. I do agree 100% that these non-italians were way more involved and influential than in other families across the country. Chicago seems to have been continually structured more as a corporation, where if you could make money you could grow in power and influence, Italian or not.
Last edited by Coloboy on Wed Feb 01, 2023 3:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Non-Italians and the Chicago Outfit
If you read some of Alderisio convos from the mid and late 60s, which are between him and other members, youll understand his status.
Do not be deceived, neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God - Corinthians 6:9-10
Re: Non-Italians and the Chicago Outfit
Thanks bro and also thank you for the kind words.Coloboy wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 3:56 pm First of all...Welcome back Villian! Where the hell have you been?
Great write up. Thanks for putting that together.
I do think there is a distinction here between the non-italian guys having very influential and powerful positions within the organization (which they certainly did), but not being fully inducted members of LCN or the "Mafia" group at the Outfits core. The more we have learned, the more we have realized that despite many labeling the outfit as "different" than other LCN families, the truth is that the key elements such as formal inductions and ranks were always a part of the organization. Additionally, we have seen evidence even today of the continuing cooperation and connection between Chicago LCN and other LCN families, including the NYC families. However, in many instances we can be sure that someone like a Gus Alex or Ralph Pierce has more de facto power than someone else who may have been a high ranking offical inducted member of the family.
The distinction being true La Cosa Nostra, vs. someone who had a powerful spot within the Chicago Outfit organization.
Yes I agree, the base of the US mob which we talk about was and always be southern Italian and no one disputes that.
But we cannot compare the Chi organization or the Genoveses with a "true LCN" organization like the Lukes or Colombos or Bonannos. I mean Lansky was on the commission, meaning some of these guys had no limits.
Edit: nicely said with the last sentence
Do not be deceived, neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God - Corinthians 6:9-10
Re: Non-Italians and the Chicago Outfit
Lets just take out the traditional induction and see if theres a HUGE difference between Italian and non-Italian member in Chicago...
1. Humphreys and Alex had authority over made members and capos
2. They received income from made guys
3. Acted as mediators or arbiters between made members and associates
4. Gave orders and also transferred orders from the top leadership
5. They were direct with the top leadership
6. Killed more people than the whole Italian faction put together
7. They had meetings with members from other families
8. They had the right to vote regarding certain issues, including taking care of the families of imprisoned or dead made members and former bosses
9. Acted as advisors for the top leadership
10. They followed protocol
1. Humphreys and Alex had authority over made members and capos
2. They received income from made guys
3. Acted as mediators or arbiters between made members and associates
4. Gave orders and also transferred orders from the top leadership
5. They were direct with the top leadership
6. Killed more people than the whole Italian faction put together
7. They had meetings with members from other families
8. They had the right to vote regarding certain issues, including taking care of the families of imprisoned or dead made members and former bosses
9. Acted as advisors for the top leadership
10. They followed protocol
Do not be deceived, neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God - Corinthians 6:9-10
Re: Non-Italians and the Chicago Outfit
Great write up and break down, Villain. I, for one, appreciate all the time and effort you put in to your research!