General Mob Questions

[Shellackhead]

Hey guys is there a good page or read up or documentary on the Outfit?

[johnny_scootch]

Hey guys is there a good page or read up or documentary on the Outfit?

Go into the Black Hand Articles section, Villain did quite a few write ups on different aspects of the Outfit. All very good and should be just what you’re looking for.

[JeremyTheJew]

Hey guys is there a good page or read up or documentary on the Outfit?

Scott’s book Family Affair with Sam giancana jnr was one my favorite Chicago books


Goes from accardo to fam secrets case n doesn’t take forever telling the story

[TallGuy19]

I think I've asked this before, but was Tommy Pitera ever a captain? I'm listening to The Butcher audiobook again, and I'm wondering where the author got the idea that he was a capo. LCN Bios has him getting made in 1986, and he was arrested in 1990. As far as I know, Frank Lino was on the street that whole time, so I don't know which crew Pitera would have been captain of.

[Shellackhead]

I think I've asked this before, but was Tommy Pitera ever a captain? I'm listening to The Butcher audiobook again, and I'm wondering where the author got the idea that he was a capo. LCN Bios has him getting made in 1986, and he was arrested in 1990. As far as I know, Frank Lino was on the street that whole time, so I don't know which crew Pitera would have been captain of.

He was a soldier under Curly Lino. I swear Kojak was a made guy tho or was about to get made during the late 80s before he too got life

[Don Mosseria]

Anyone aware of a mobster in Las Vegas in the late 1960s who had a mansion with a tiger in a cage in the basement? As a Londoner (London UK), my interest was peaked by this story of notorious London gangster Ronnie Kray visiting such a “mob boss” with such a tiger. It’s very second hand anecdotal, so could be complete nonsense, but just thought I’d ask if anyone knows of anything that could fit? Thanks

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/r ... s-28417049

[UTC]

Anyone aware of a mobster in Las Vegas in the late 1960s who had a mansion with a tiger in a cage in the basement? As a Londoner (London UK), my interest was peaked by this story of notorious London gangster Ronnie Kray visiting such a “mob boss” with such a tiger. It’s very second hand anecdotal, so could be complete nonsense, but just thought I’d ask if anyone knows of anything that could fit? Thanks

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/r ... s-28417049

The story does not have the ring of truth. It was just what they supposedly told the publicist they hired to promote their book in the 80's, and it was repeated later when someone was doing a documentary on Ronnie. According to the publicist, in 1968, Ronnie went to Chicago and met with Lansky to find out how the mob ran their casinos. Right. Then, he went to LV, met Sinatra, and offered to provide protection for Sinatra JR after Sinatra said his son was going to London and he the father was afraid of kidnapping. Then he went to the gangster's house who graciously opened up with how they use the tiger to kill, and then throw the remains over the Hoover Dam.

[Ivan]

Anyone aware of a mobster in Las Vegas in the late 1960s who had a mansion with a tiger in a cage in the basement? As a Londoner (London UK), my interest was peaked by this story of notorious London gangster Ronnie Kray visiting such a “mob boss” with such a tiger. It’s very second hand anecdotal, so could be complete nonsense, but just thought I’d ask if anyone knows of anything that could fit? Thanks

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/r ... s-28417049

The story does not have the ring of truth. It was just what they supposedly told the publicist they hired to promote their book in the 80's, and it was repeated later when someone was doing a documentary on Ronnie. According to the publicist, in 1968, Ronnie went to Chicago and met with Lansky to find out how the mob ran their casinos. Right. Then, he went to LV, met Sinatra, and offered to provide protection for Sinatra JR after Sinatra said his son was going to London and he the father was afraid of kidnapping. Then he went to the gangster's house who graciously opened up with how they use the tiger to kill, and then throw the remains over the Hoover Dam.

If memory serves, didn't the Krays really have actual dealings with Angelo Bruno and Frankie Flowers?

[Don Mosseria]

Anyone aware of a mobster in Las Vegas in the late 1960s who had a mansion with a tiger in a cage in the basement? As a Londoner (London UK), my interest was peaked by this story of notorious London gangster Ronnie Kray visiting such a “mob boss” with such a tiger. It’s very second hand anecdotal, so could be complete nonsense, but just thought I’d ask if anyone knows of anything that could fit? Thanks

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/r ... s-28417049

The story does not have the ring of truth. It was just what they supposedly told the publicist they hired to promote their book in the 80's, and it was repeated later when someone was doing a documentary on Ronnie. According to the publicist, in 1968, Ronnie went to Chicago and met with Lansky to find out how the mob ran their casinos. Right. Then, he went to LV, met Sinatra, and offered to provide protection for Sinatra JR after Sinatra said his son was going to London and he the father was afraid of kidnapping. Then he went to the gangster's house who graciously opened up with how they use the tiger to kill, and then throw the remains over the Hoover Dam.

Lol - point taken. As Ivan notes in the comment after yours though, this is far from the only reference to the Krays working with Lansky and American LCN. The story as I have seen it elsewhere is that they met with Angelo Bruno in London in the early 60s because the American mob wanted to set up Casinos in Europe after they were kicked out of Cuba, and Bruno was bringing messages from Lansky. Don’t know about Franky Flowers specifically, but there were various other American mafiosi supposedly involved. They then, allegedly, did go into the casino business together. And it is also written elsewhere that the Krays did look after Frank Sinatra Jr when he was in London, though I read that this was AFTER Frank Jr was kidnapped, where this story says it was because Frank Sr was worried he WOULD get kidnapped.

Now, I don’t know whether any or all of this is bullshit. Both Kray movies have the twins meeting with Angelo Bruno in London, but that could just be because it is in a book they wrote in the 80s but it’s completely made up. It does seem a bit weird that the boss of Philadelphia would travel to London bringing messages from Lansky about setting up Casinos. This was before Atlantic City was a casino town, which was a Scarfo era thing, so why would Philly be particularly involved in casino stuff? And why would the boss be going to these kinds of operational meetings?

That said, American Cosa Nostra did get into the casino business in London in the 60s. The Colony Sports Club, hosted by ageing movie star George Raft, was apparently a mafia front. George Raft, along with Dino Cellini, who ran casinos for Lansky in Cuba and was now running the Colony, were both deported by the British government for being connected to American organised crime. And I have actually just found a copy of what is apparently a British newspaper article from 1968 which names Angelo Bruno, stating that British casino chiefs went to meet him and other mafia members in Miami to discuss Casino business, as well as referencing Lansky.

https://www.gamingfloor.com/features/ma ... ia_lon.htm

And the Krays did run West End London clubland in the 60s, so it is at least feasible to think that they could have been involved in the casino business with Cosa Nostra. They also allegedly had dealings with them through boxing, when American boxers came to the UK.

This is why I didn’t just dismiss this story of Ronnie visiting them in America out of hand. Yes, now you put it like that, the idea of this mob boss telling Kray “we feed people to this lion” does sound a bit daft. Why would they admit murder techniques to some outsider? But, they could just have been playing with him, or he could have exaggerated on top of what is overall a true story. That’s why I was wondering if there is any story of a Vegas mobster with a tiger. If there was, it might go some way to corroborate the story. Or, it could all be made up nonsense…

[Ivan]

As Ivan notes in the comment after yours though, this is far from the only reference to the Krays working with Lansky and American LCN.

Got it from Frank Friel. Here is the relevant passage from Breaking the Mob; he's talking about Frankie Flowers and his services to Bruno (sorry the top part is cut off in this preview but there's nothing beyond what it says here). No mention of the Krays, but Bruno and Frankie Flowers D'Alfonso really were messing around in London a little bit at least, apparently. Friel is a credible source and would know. I haven't seen the Krays-hang-around-with-Bruno movie so I can't comment on it.

[Don Mosseria]

Great, thanks Ivan. I will check Frank Friel and his work on Frankie Flowers out. Looks great! I have also found that New England Family associate turned informant Vinnie Teresa talked quite a lot in his book about Bruno and Casinos in London, including, but not limited to The Colony Sports Club. Apparently the Colony was the high end one, but they had a two or three more seedy ones too, that would move around. Vinnie Teresa himself came to London and ran games in the Casinos. He doesn’t mention the Krays in his book though (or at least a search on the word Kray didn’t turn anything up). I have also seen video of him giving testimony to congress about selling stolen securities as one of his main rackets, and in the 2015 film Legend, where Tom Hardy plays both Kray twins and Chaz Palmienteri plays Angelo Bruno, Bruno gives them a suitcase full of stolen bearer bonds that are too hot to sell in the US for them to sell in the UK. I thought it was unrealistic that he would have travelled with a suitcase of stolen securities, but maybe they did smuggle them over and there is something to that too? I will keep digging on this stuff. I am interested in this LCN-London connection. Cheers

[Ivan]

Breaking the Mob is definitely worth a read. That's where the "smoking gun" evidence for Long John Martorano being in on the Bruno hit comes from. Friel goes a little overboard with the whole "Frankie Flowers was a good guy who didn't deserve it" thing that a lot of people do though. (People act like the guy was a martyred saint for some reason but he more than had it coming under mob rules of the day.)

I'm guessing that Bruno perhaps sent Flowers to London to deal with the Krays WRT the "gambling junkets" mentioned by Friel or something similar and this was turned into meeting with Bruno directly to make it more interesting in the Kray book. Sounds like typical criminal braggadocio -- they met with a mafia boss's flunky, so they exaggerate this into meeting the boss himself.

[Antiliar]

Hey guys is there a good page or read up or documentary on the Outfit?

I compiled a list of books on Chicago in the Book Lounge section. There are no really good documentaries of the Outfit that I could recommend. OC Shortz on YouTube has videos of Outfit guys that are worth watching.

[UTC]

Anyone aware of a mobster in Las Vegas in the late 1960s who had a mansion with a tiger in a cage in the basement? As a Londoner (London UK), my interest was peaked by this story of notorious London gangster Ronnie Kray visiting such a “mob boss” with such a tiger. It’s very second hand anecdotal, so could be complete nonsense, but just thought I’d ask if anyone knows of anything that could fit? Thanks

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/r ... s-28417049

The story does not have the ring of truth. It was just what they supposedly told the publicist they hired to promote their book in the 80's, and it was repeated later when someone was doing a documentary on Ronnie. According to the publicist, in 1968, Ronnie went to Chicago and met with Lansky to find out how the mob ran their casinos. Right. Then, he went to LV, met Sinatra, and offered to provide protection for Sinatra JR after Sinatra said his son was going to London and he the father was afraid of kidnapping. Then he went to the gangster's house who graciously opened up with how they use the tiger to kill, and then throw the remains over the Hoover Dam.

Lol - point taken. As Ivan notes in the comment after yours though, this is far from the only reference to the Krays working with Lansky and American LCN. The story as I have seen it elsewhere is that they met with Angelo Bruno in London in the early 60s because the American mob wanted to set up Casinos in Europe after they were kicked out of Cuba, and Bruno was bringing messages from Lansky. Don’t know about Franky Flowers specifically, but there were various other American mafiosi supposedly involved. They then, allegedly, did go into the casino business together. And it is also written elsewhere that the Krays did look after Frank Sinatra Jr when he was in London, though I read that this was AFTER Frank Jr was kidnapped, where this story says it was because Frank Sr was worried he WOULD get kidnapped.

Now, I don’t know whether any or all of this is bullshit. Both Kray movies have the twins meeting with Angelo Bruno in London, but that could just be because it is in a book they wrote in the 80s but it’s completely made up. It does seem a bit weird that the boss of Philadelphia would travel to London bringing messages from Lansky about setting up Casinos. This was before Atlantic City was a casino town, which was a Scarfo era thing, so why would Philly be particularly involved in casino stuff? And why would the boss be going to these kinds of operational meetings?

That said, American Cosa Nostra did get into the casino business in London in the 60s. The Colony Sports Club, hosted by ageing movie star George Raft, was apparently a mafia front. George Raft, along with Dino Cellini, who ran casinos for Lansky in Cuba and was now running the Colony, were both deported by the British government for being connected to American organised crime. And I have actually just found a copy of what is apparently a British newspaper article from 1968 which names Angelo Bruno, stating that British casino chiefs went to meet him and other mafia members in Miami to discuss Casino business, as well as referencing Lansky.

https://www.gamingfloor.com/features/ma ... ia_lon.htm

And the Krays did run West End London clubland in the 60s, so it is at least feasible to think that they could have been involved in the casino business with Cosa Nostra. They also allegedly had dealings with them through boxing, when American boxers came to the UK.

This is why I didn’t just dismiss this story of Ronnie visiting them in America out of hand. Yes, now you put it like that, the idea of this mob boss telling Kray “we feed people to this lion” does sound a bit daft. Why would they admit murder techniques to some outsider? But, they could just have been playing with him, or he could have exaggerated on top of what is overall a true story. That’s why I was wondering if there is any story of a Vegas mobster with a tiger. If there was, it might go some way to corroborate the story. Or, it could all be made up nonsense…

There may well be some connections. I was just speaking of the publicist's rendition of a story.

[ItzPurpleAki]

Is there anymore info about the Scafidi family pre Scarfo? I can’t find anything on Gaetano Scafidi or his brother Joe really.