General Chicago Outfit Info Dumping Ground

[OcSleeper]

Antiliar shared with us another source told him Solly D is retired and Jimmy I "runs the Outfit now" and when Antiliar checked with his other source he said its possible but wasn't sure.

https://theblackhand.club/forum/viewtop ... ly#p234726

[Wiseguy]

This is called an argument from silence. It's not only a logical fallacy, but a historian's fallacy. There's an old saying, "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence." If there's a lack of information the best answer is "I don't know."

On the other hand, I have sources that tell me that something is still going on with the Outfit and they've made new members. However, because this is unverified raw data I won't say that I know what they tell me is accurate, but I know them well enough that I find them credible. I shared some of what they told me here (with permission), but you're under no obligation to believe it. Just stop giving people misinformation as if you know certain things about what's current as fact, because you don't.

We've been over this many times before. In the context of the mob, the "argument of silence" is deafening. Its why there's a lot of evidence of mob activity in New York, less so in Philadelphia, and none in San Francisco. It's not rocket science. Anyone who wants to argue "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" better be prepared to acknowledge the theoretical possibility there's still two-dozen odd families operating in the U.S. Considering some people talk about the "LA Family" like it's still a thing, maybe they're not far off from that. Heck, maybe there have been mob guys operating in Dallas for the last 50 years and we "just don't know."

I take your information about some people in Chicago like I would any other that came a similar way. I don't automatically discount it as impossible but I'm not prepared to take it as fact until I see some sort of official verification. And in any event, even if we discovered the 5 guys your source has mentioned were all indeed made, that wouldn't change the overall state of the Outfit. Nothing I said in response to the original poster is misinformation. Chicago is facing the same attrition cliff other small families are and will, in all probability, be the next family to cross off the list. And a lot sooner than I think many envision.

[Antiliar]

This is called an argument from silence. It's not only a logical fallacy, but a historian's fallacy. There's an old saying, "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence." If there's a lack of information the best answer is "I don't know."

On the other hand, I have sources that tell me that something is still going on with the Outfit and they've made new members. However, because this is unverified raw data I won't say that I know what they tell me is accurate, but I know them well enough that I find them credible. I shared some of what they told me here (with permission), but you're under no obligation to believe it. Just stop giving people misinformation as if you know certain things about what's current as fact, because you don't.

We've been over this many times before. In the context of the mob, the "argument of silence" is deafening. Its why there's a lot of evidence of mob activity in New York, less so in Philadelphia, and none in San Francisco. It's not rocket science. Anyone who wants to argue "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" better be prepared to acknowledge the theoretical possibility there's still two-dozen odd families operating in the U.S. Considering some people talk about the "LA Family" like it's still a thing, maybe they're not far off from that. Heck, maybe there have been mob guys operating in Dallas for the last 50 years and we "just don't know."

I take your information about some people in Chicago like I would any other that came a similar way. I don't automatically discount it as impossible but I'm not prepared to take it as fact until I see some sort of official verification. And in any event, even if we discovered the 5 guys your source has mentioned were all indeed made, that wouldn't change the overall state of the Outfit. Nothing I said in response to the original poster is misinformation. Chicago is facing the same attrition cliff other small families are and will, in all probability, be the next family to cross off the list. And a lot sooner than I think many envision.

No, anyone pointing out that "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" is someone who wants to be accurate. Appealing to other cities is an appeal to irrelevance. Every city has its own unique dynamics. Sure, attrition in small families is a possibility (since you brought it up), but as we've seen in cities like Rockford and Madison, even small cities can survive for decades. But possibility is not probability, and your attitude of certainty isn't warranted and isn't based on any evidence. There's definitely no evidence for your claim "Chicago...will, in all probability, be the next family to cross off the list. And a lot sooner than I think many envision." Just because you feel something based on your gut feeling or whatever else you are basing this on doesn't make it more probable. Is it possible? Yes. Is it probable? We don't know. Unless you have confirmed information otherwise the only responsible answer is "I don't know."

BTW, there's a plethora of reasons why the government doesn't have indictments in certain places:
- The feds changed its priorities in certain locations for various reasons, including politics
- There is a lack of criminal activities
- Criminals more successfully hide their crimes
- The organized crime members are less involved in committing crimes
- The members are only involved in legitimate activities

It should be pointed out that a LCN Family can still have a structure and be fully intact even if every member is no longer involved in crime. One is a member of the Cosa Nostra for life, regardless of one's criminality. Theoretically, even if San Francisco had 25 made members who never committed a crime in their lives and only met to play checkers, it's still a borgata. It doesn't matter if you don't believe it's "viable." The Cosa Nostra operates by its own rules, not by yours or mine.

[Patrickgold]

This is called an argument from silence. It's not only a logical fallacy, but a historian's fallacy. There's an old saying, "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence." If there's a lack of information the best answer is "I don't know."

On the other hand, I have sources that tell me that something is still going on with the Outfit and they've made new members. However, because this is unverified raw data I won't say that I know what they tell me is accurate, but I know them well enough that I find them credible. I shared some of what they told me here (with permission), but you're under no obligation to believe it. Just stop giving people misinformation as if you know certain things about what's current as fact, because you don't.

We've been over this many times before. In the context of the mob, the "argument of silence" is deafening. Its why there's a lot of evidence of mob activity in New York, less so in Philadelphia, and none in San Francisco. It's not rocket science. Anyone who wants to argue "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" better be prepared to acknowledge the theoretical possibility there's still two-dozen odd families operating in the U.S. Considering some people talk about the "LA Family" like it's still a thing, maybe they're not far off from that. Heck, maybe there have been mob guys operating in Dallas for the last 50 years and we "just don't know."

I take your information about some people in Chicago like I would any other that came a similar way. I don't automatically discount it as impossible but I'm not prepared to take it as fact until I see some sort of official verification. And in any event, even if we discovered the 5 guys your source has mentioned were all indeed made, that wouldn't change the overall state of the Outfit. Nothing I said in response to the original poster is misinformation. Chicago is facing the same attrition cliff other small families are and will, in all probability, be the next family to cross off the list. And a lot sooner than I think many envision.

No, anyone pointing out that "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" is someone who wants to be accurate. Appealing to other cities is an appeal to irrelevance. Every city has its own unique dynamics. Sure, attrition in small families is a possibility (since you brought it up), but as we've seen in cities like Rockford and Madison, even small cities can survive for decades. But possibility is not probability, and your attitude of certainty isn't warranted and isn't based on any evidence. There's definitely no evidence for your claim "Chicago...will, in all probability, be the next family to cross off the list. And a lot sooner than I think many envision." Just because you feel something based on your gut feeling or whatever else you are basing this on doesn't make it more probable. Is it possible? Yes. Is it probable? We don't know. Unless you have confirmed information otherwise the only responsible answer is "I don't know."

BTW, there's a plethora of reasons why the government doesn't have indictments in certain places:
- The feds changed its priorities in certain locations for various reasons, including politics
- There is a lack of criminal activities
- Criminals more successfully hide their crimes
- The organized crime members are less involved in committing crimes
- The members are only involved in legitimate activities

It should be pointed out that a LCN Family can still have a structure and be fully intact even if every member is no longer involved in crime. One is a member of the Cosa Nostra for life, regardless of one's criminality. Theoretically, even if San Francisco had 25 made members who never committed a crime in their lives and only met to play checkers, it's still a borgata. It doesn't matter if you don't believe it's "viable." The Cosa Nostra operates by its own rules, not by yours or mine.

Excellence response Antiliar. But the crazy thing about it, is that there are still indictments as we can see in the bookmaking indictments from a couple of years ago. I remember when the first part of the indictments came out, people were saying they were not connected to organized crime because there was no wording in the indictments. Well that theory obviously went out the window when some names later got indicted and it was discovered that the operations were all connected.

[Antiliar]

Good point, Patrick

[Wiseguy]

No, anyone pointing out that "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" is someone who wants to be accurate. Appealing to other cities is an appeal to irrelevance. Every city has its own unique dynamics. Sure, attrition in small families is a possibility (since you brought it up), but as we've seen in cities like Rockford and Madison, even small cities can survive for decades. But possibility is not probability, and your attitude of certainty isn't warranted and isn't based on any evidence. There's definitely no evidence for your claim "Chicago...will, in all probability, be the next family to cross off the list. And a lot sooner than I think many envision." Just because you feel something based on your gut feeling or whatever else you are basing this on doesn't make it more probable. Is it possible? Yes. Is it probable? We don't know. Unless you have confirmed information otherwise the only responsible answer is "I don't know."

BTW, there's a plethora of reasons why the government doesn't have indictments in certain places:
- The feds changed its priorities in certain locations for various reasons, including politics
- There is a lack of criminal activities
- Criminals more successfully hide their crimes
- The organized crime members are less involved in committing crimes
- The members are only involved in legitimate activities

It should be pointed out that a LCN Family can still have a structure and be fully intact even if every member is no longer involved in crime. One is a member of the Cosa Nostra for life, regardless of one's criminality. Theoretically, even if San Francisco had 25 made members who never committed a crime in their lives and only met to play checkers, it's still a borgata. It doesn't matter if you don't believe it's "viable." The Cosa Nostra operates by its own rules, not by yours or mine.

Forget being active or inactive, legit or illegitimate. I'm not even holding Chicago to that standard. I'm simply talking still breathing or in the ground.

We're looking at maybe 14 guys who are either certainly or most likely made, most in their 70's or 80's. That's subtracting the known or probable members from the 28 cited by the FBI in 2007. In terms of a core membership, they don't appear to have the manpower to field even the four crews that were listed 15 years ago. Heck, you look back over the last 20-25 years and it's more or less been the Melrose Park show. That's where the vast majority of the activity has been and the crew most of the remaining members are with. Not to mention the leadership on the street, not including DiFronzo.

Can anyone name more than more than a few certain or probable members each (maybe even just 1 or 2) for the Elmwood Park, Grand Avenue, or 26th Street crews? I won't even get into their activity or lack thereof. Just guys still breathing. What's the Grand Avenue crew made up of, Vena and some associates? From all appearances, Chicago really isn't far off from what we now see in Buffalo, Detroit, or Kansas City - "a handful of elderly has beens," to quote Selwyn Raab.

And I'm glad the recent bookmaking cases were brought up. For years on these forums, there's been a certain phenomenon (for lack of a better word) when it comes to Chicago where, perhaps because unique characteristics in the past, people have felt more free to draw connections from the Outfit to this or that. Everything gets put under the Outfit umbrella. A big reason why many believed the organization to be much larger in the past, at least prior to the Family Secrets case.

Were there "connections" between the Paloian and the Outfit? Sure. The guy has a 1980 conviction for extending juice loans to gamblers, pled guilty in 2002 to running a bookmaking operation under the protection of Rocky Infelise, was on a no-contact list for Mike Sarno, and was involved in the Hired Truck Program case. Then you have the prosecutor tying him to the Delgiudice gambling case earlier that year, who himself and others in that case had past or peripheral connections to the Outfit. And then, as part of the ongoing investigation, you had John Amabile running a bookmaking operation, he being the grandson of a later Outfit figure. And if we really want to go down the rabbit hole Outfit enthusiasts love to go, we could talk about Delguidice's reported "connections" (there's that word again) to Cinespace longtime lobbyist Frank Cortese, who was "connected" to Coli and had worked in worked in the Illinois Sec of State and Governors offices, and so on. It gets dizzying real fast, huh?

How much any of this, including these recent gambling cases, are connected to the Outfit in the present day is another question. Are any of these guys in an Outfit crew? Or are they at least paying tribute that makes its way, directly or indirectly, to an Outfit member? Or are they simply bookies still plying their trade that have past ties to the Outfit of one type or another like we've seen in other cities? Not all "connections" being equal. And even if, for the sake of argument, we assume these were all Outfit gambling cases, with orders going down and money going up, once the core membership is gone (again, not far off) it's all moot.

I'm not going on "gut feeling." I'm going on the available evidence. Ever-shrinking pool of elderly members. Major down trend in number and scope of cases. Statements by government or law enforcement officials. It paints a pretty clear picture.

[Snakes]

Paloian has regularly sent money to Sarno’s prison account since he was imprisoned; these are no doubt the proceeds of his illegal gambling business.

If the Outfit holds no juice on the street, why is Paloian sending money from a very profitable sportsbook to an imprisoned member? Paloain was either a very good friend and a nice guy or there is still a chain of command that needs to be respected.

Nobody is arguing that this is the Chicago Outfit of the 1960s or even the 1980s, but modern-day Chicago is still not a San Francisco or St. Louis.

[Wiseguy]

Paloian has regularly sent money to Sarno’s prison account since he was imprisoned; these are no doubt the proceeds of his illegal gambling business.

I certainly find that believable. But my point above stands.

If the Outfit holds no juice on the street, why is Paloian sending money from a very profitable sportsbook to an imprisoned member? Paloain was either a very good friend and a nice guy or there is still a chain of command that needs to be respected.

Nobody is arguing that this is the Chicago Outfit of the 1960s or even the 1980s, but modern-day Chicago is still not a San Francisco or St. Louis.

I didn't say they don't hold any juice or that they're San Francisco or St. Louis. I'm saying the modern day Outfit, or what's left of it, is not too far above what's left in, say, Buffalo or Detroit. Chicago just has a few more made guys still breathing.

[Snakes]

Paloian has regularly sent money to Sarno’s prison account since he was imprisoned; these are no doubt the proceeds of his illegal gambling business.

I certainly find that believable. But my point above stands.

This was per Assistant U.S. Attorney in the Northern District of Illinois; should have mentioned that in the initial quote

[Snakes]

Another thing to keep in mind as far as membership identification: when they listed the known members of the Chicago LCN in 1985, they only had three of the nine who were made in 1983 (they also did not have two of the seven capos of the family at the time listed). So, two years had gone by and they still only had 1/3 of those made at that ceremony, and this was when they had a much greater wealth of resources. One of the reasons for that is the weakening of the family, but the fact still stands that regardless of resources it was and (I imagine) still is very difficult to get an accurate reading on the family's membership.

TLDR; some of the answers to your questions (who is made, what are the crews) may take years to answer -- if they ever are.

[Wiseguy]

Another thing to keep in mind as far as membership identification: when they listed the known members of the Chicago LCN in 1985, they only had three of the nine who were made in 1983 (they also did not have two of the seven capos of the family at the time listed). So, two years had gone by and they still only had 1/3 of those made at that ceremony, and this was when they had a much greater wealth of resources. One of the reasons for that is the weakening of the family, but the fact still stands that regardless of resources it was and (I imagine) still is very difficult to get an accurate reading on the family's membership.

TLDR; some of the answers to your questions (who is made, what are the crews) may take years to answer -- if they ever are.

The 1980's was when they were still building their intel. I don't think even you believe there is a large number of made guys operating under the radar in Chicago today. And if you look at the 1980's, I've seen four figures from the FBI during that decade ranging from 45 to 51. Fast-forward to 2007, it's down to 28 according to the feds. About half that number dead since then. I think some would call that a trend. Even if there are some unknowns floating around. Like elsewhere, it's extremely unlikely they're making anywhere near enough guys to even come close to those dying off.

[Snakes]

Look, I hear you, but I don't think anyone here is being unreasonable about their status. It's like you come into Chicago threads on auto-pilot with a Buffalo or KC mindset.

[funkster]

Same old shit, different day.

[Patrickgold]

FBI files detail dropped investigation of clout-heavy Chicago-area union

The recently released records regarding the agency’s interest in the late William Dugan, who headed Operating Engineers Local 150, also touch on the union’s clout.
By Robert Herguth Dec 16, 2022, 7:00am CST
Twitter
Facebook
Email
SHARE
The Operating Engineers Local 150 offices in Countryside.
The Operating Engineers Local 150 offices in Countryside.Anthony Vazquez / Sun-Times
From the 1980s into the early 2000s, nonunion construction contractors that resisted union organizing efforts by Operating Engineers Local 150 in the Chicago area and beyond kept finding heavy machinery sabotaged at their work sites.

Acid was poured into engine parts. A bulldozer and a front-end loader were launched into a quarry. Pipe bombs were set off at an asphalt plant.

In one incident, 100 or more people stormed a nonunion work site, and equipment “was shot and set on fire, windows were broken, tires were slashed and a job trailer with three men inside was tipped over,” according to authorities.

In a 1999 Chicago Sun-Times interview, William Dugan, the since-deceased leader of Local 150, said his group wasn’t behind any vandalism and suggested that the contractors were damaging their own equipment for the insurance money and blaming an easy target.

William Dugan, longtime head of Operating Engineers Local 150, in 2004.
William Dugan, longtime head of Operating Engineers Local 150, in 2004.Sun-Times file
“It would be ludicrous for us to picket a contractor, then do some damage to that owner’s property,” Dugan said. “We don’t resort to that stuff.”

But the vandalism and violence prompted federal agents to open an investigation in 1998 into Local 150, according to Dugan’s FBI file, recently obtained by the Sun-Times. The investigation, dubbed Operation Paving Justice, lasted six years before it was shut down in 2004 without any criminal charges being filed, though investigators estimated there had been $70 million in “equipment and property” damage.

Union officials say the investigation didn’t result in charges because the labor group wasn’t to blame.

“This six-year, multi-office investigation was terminated nearly 20 years ago . . . due to a lack of evidence,” a Local 150 spokesman says. “No charges were ever filed as a result of this investigation, and we emphatically deny any suggestion that Local 150 was involved in the activity that was being investigated.”

Also, he says, “Nowhere in these documents are any current staff members of Local 150 mentioned or connected with any activities that were being investigated.”

At the time, Dugan’s FBI file shows, an official in the office of the U.S. attorney general — which had been contacted by someone, possibly one of the contractors — asked an FBI agent “if the FBI investigated the case to the best of its abilities, and if every incident and possibility was investigated,” according to a 2003 FBI memo.

A record in William Dugan’s FBI file shows questions were asked about the thoroughness of the federal investigation into Operating Engineers Local 150.
A record in William Dugan’s FBI file shows questions were asked about the thoroughness of the federal investigation into Operating Engineers Local 150.FBI
The agent “opined that the case was not investigated adequately, and that further investigation of the case was not endorsed by FBI supervisors,” the memo said.

When the investigation was shut down in 2004, another FBI memo, labeled “Case Closing,” said: “All investigative leads have been exhausted regarding past incidents of Local 150. Concerning the most recent incident occurring in northern Indiana, [the FBI] Chicago Division’s attempts to obtain U.S. attorney’s office authority to conduct a consensual recording between a cooperating individual and a Local 150 business agent failed when” a prosecutor “declined to grant authority to record.”

The same memo said, “The various Local 150 tactics should be appropriately investigated as state offenses” because “such conduct in and [of] itself did not amount to a federal violation.”

An earlier portion of the Dugan FBI file, from 2000, said the investigation involved possible violations of the federal Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act, perhaps best known for its use in taking down the mob: “Chicago’s investigation centers on violation of the Federal RICO statute using the State of Illinois intimidation statutes or any other predicate offenses of the RICO statute.

“Since the captioned case was opened, numerous victims have been located across Illinois and into the northern counties of Indiana.

“Each victim has had virtually the same experience. At some point during the non-union contractor’s labor dispute with Local 150, the contractor’s equipment is damaged. The damage is usually the result of acid or some other substance being placed in the equipment’s hydraulics. The damage amounts have ranged from as little as $1,000 to as much as $500,000 or more per incident.

“Some of the non-union contractors have opted to accept the union contract and the vandalism seems to cease once the contractors sign with Local 150.”

Operating Engineers Local 150 at a strike in Orland Park in 2000.
Operating Engineers Local 150 at a strike in Orland Park in 2000.Sun-Times file
Members of Local 150 — based in Countryside and representing workers across northern Illinois and parts of Indiana and Iowa — operate and maintain heavy equipment “in a variety of industries, mainly tied to the construction industry,” according to the union, which says that, under Dugan’s leadership, the group “doubled its membership from about 10,000 in 1986,” when Dugan became boss, “to over 22,000 members in 2008,” when he retired.

Harnessing the clout of his members as a voting bloc, Dugan wielded a political fund that contributed to members of both major political parties, some of them in positions to have a say on government-funded road work and other infrastructure projects.

RELATED
‘Fierce, caring’ Chicago labor leader Bill Dugan dies at 86
Dugan, who died in 2020, was appointed by successive Illinois governors to government boards and commissions with authority over taxpayer spending and policy decisions. They included the Illinois Gaming Board and the governing boards of the CTA and the Illinois State Toll Highway Authority, where Dugan secured “the first significant multi-project labor agreement in Illinois, guaranteeing all tollway construction work would be performed by union contractors,” according to a union biography.

Dugan’s successor James Sweeney, who’s still in charge of Local 150, is also a member of the tollway board, reappointed in 2019 by Gov. J.B. Pritzker. Sweeney, who, according to the union, was hired by Dugan in 1987 as Local 150’s first full-time organizer, wouldn’t comment on the closed FBI investigation.

The FBI will release, on request, some or all of its files on people who have died. In releasing Dugan’s file, it redacted parts of some records and withheld others entirely.

The material it released offered glimpses of Local 150’s ties to political figures and police.

For instance, one portion of the files discusses the 1986 arrest of a union member in the southwest suburbs in the incident in which the trailer was flipped and those charges being dropped by a Will County prosecutor.

According to an FBI document, the member, whose name was blacked out, “was arrested and charged with armed violence, arson and mob activity.”

The Will County state’s attorney’s office “dismissed the charges without [name blacked out] ever having the chance to testify,” the document shows. “That former state’s attorney is now a state senator who has enjoyed generous financial backing by Local 150 and its members.”

The same document says: “Throughout the course of other investigations into activity by Local 150, witnesses have changed their stories, suddenly refused to cooperate, and one key witness in a bombing investigation allegedly committed suicide shortly before the trial. One man who testified against members of Local 150 in a civil matter awoke one morning to find [blacked out].”

According to another document in Dugan’s FBI file: “Local 150 [blacked out] admitted to the case agent that law enforcement officials run license plate numbers for Local 150 members to identify addresses of non-union contractors or other individuals in whom Local 150 has an interest.”

An FBI record that says police departments had run license plates for Operating Engineers Local 150, something that prompted federal agents to question police chiefs.
An FBI record that says police departments had run license plates for Operating Engineers Local 150, something that prompted federal agents to question police chiefs.FBI
Agents interviewed three suburban police chiefs about that, according to the records.

Federal authorities later opened another investigation into Dugan. In that case, he pleaded guilty in 2010 to using his union post for personal gain and was sentenced to probation.

[Wiseguy]

Look, I hear you, but I don't think anyone here is being unreasonable about their status. It's like you come into Chicago threads on auto-pilot with a Buffalo or KC mindset.

I'd argue that people are on an auto-pilot mindset regarding the Outfit. I used to be one of them before coming to the conclusion that there isn't as much separating present-day Chicago from those other cities as many think there is.