Family Councils / Consigli / Seggia / Elders / Inner Circle

[Don Mosseria]

Cheers Eric, I appreciate the response, and I am pleased that you think the feudal "torneo" hypothesis holds water (though I wouldn't want to be too certain). The fact that many Sicilian families used to name themselves after the historic feudal fiefdom in which they reside is an interesting addition.

The fundamental conservative nature of the culture and institutions you note is a fascinating feature of the organisation, as is the evolution one sees along side the conservatism, which you guys have discussed on your show. In that vein, it seems like if Joe Bonanno represented the old world archetype of the upper social tier within the mafia (I forget the term you used for the "upper class" mafia), that of being a member of the landed gentry or aristocracy (an upper class archetype that persists in Europe to this day), someone like Paul Castellano a generation or two later represents a more American archetype of the upper social tier - the corporate executive. Though I am sure some of that is down to individual preference also. Nevertheless, chivalric ideals certainly carried over well into the 20th Century, even with the Americanised blue collar street guy mafiosi - the idea of defending the honour of women in the neighbourhood that you hear guys like Sammy talking about could be directly lifted from medieval courtly literature, though with quite a different accent lol. The paternalistic idea of protecting and guiding the small folk of your domain even as you expoit them is basically the modus operandi of the feudal knightly and noble class.

One question - is the middle of a thread like this the appropriate place to post a longish piece of analysis like the above? It seems quite a lot longer than most of the posts. Thanks!

[B.]

You can post anything wherever you'd like. Some people are more particular about staying on topic but I'm all about a free-for-all if someone has something interesting to add.

The term you're thinking of is "Alta mafia", which is the more upper class and ostensibly legitimate side of the Sicilian mafia while the old banditry and thuggish side was called the "Basso mafia". I'm sure those were outsider terms but Italian investigators/historians have been using them for a very long time and they are great terms relevant to the US as well. I believe some confusion in early Sicily led outsiders to believe the Alta and Basso factions were two different organizations/groups whereas I'm of the opinion that these are typically factions of the same Family. You can see it in America later in the way Gravano criticized Castellano or what Leonetti said about Angelo Bruno.

One of the aspects I find most interesting about the mafia is even though it is intensely conservative they do change based on their environment. It's like how conservativism in "legitimate" society is reluctant to change but does ultimately evolve. Like today you'll see mainstream Republicans in the US pushing their own gay or female candidates which you wouldn't have seen 20 years ago. Cosa Nostra in 1905 didn't allow mainlanders in US Families but by 1930/31 you had Sicilians fully supporting them as bosses.

Then you flash forward to the 1960s where San Jose is largely a Western Sicilian organization but the underboss and consiglio secretary are Calabrians who are more diehard about the organization than the boss. I mean there have even been non-Italians who can't be made in US Families who believe in Cosa Nostra more than some of the members do.

[Don Mosseria]

Yeah, the Alta/Basso distinction definitely still applies. It exactly matches the White Collar/Blue Collar distinction that is made by more recent American mafiosi.

In terms of my concern over if my post was appropriate, I was referring to my original post about the meaning of Tourna = Torneo. I am happy that it was on topic, I was just worried that as almost a short essay it was too long compared to other posts in the forum. So let me know if you think so, otherwise I won’t worry about it.

One additional source regarding old time mafiosi imagining themselves a feudal lords or chivalric knights. The last few days I have been going through Joe Bonanno’s memoir again, and I noticed that when he is describing his (probably fictional) kidnapping by Magaddino, he claims that when he slept at night he would dream of himself and his cousin as two feuding knights from a puppet show of his youth. He was obviously the noble honourable knight, and Magaddino was the bad knight - lol. Given the whole story is likely a fabrication, he likely did not actually dream that, but he did choose to use that metaphor in his book. And it confirms that children in Sicily at that time grew up with stories of knighthood and chivalry, so it was in the popular imagination. So that may lend further credence to Tourna being the feudal Torneo concept.

[OmarSantista]

Yep, definitely appears to be using Grand Council to refer to the Commission. Like with Gentile's use of it with the Italian Treasury, it might be a sign some people saw the Gran Consiglio as more continuous with the Commission than we realize.

Another interesting point to note is the distinction drawn between the “grand old council” and the “12 man council”, as we have the wiretap where Accardo is advising Giancana on how the Commission functions and specifically states that it was composed of 12 men (in explaining to Giancana that he would need 6 other votes for a majority, as 6 votes alone would result in a “stand-off”).

This is interesting because you guys have mentioned the importance of multiple examples of odd number councils for the very reason to avoid "stand offs". It makes me wonder how efficient the 12 man council really was and the variability it offered.

[LarryC]

Great to have you here, Will.

I think you're on the money with "torneo" being the word Maniaci was using. Both the phonetics and the definition fit.

The mafia's roots are feudal and they kept that mentality. We know the Vita/Calatafimi Family was traditionally called the "Rosignolo" Family after a historic fiefdom in the area and we see similar historic language used to refer to districts a Family was based in. It makes sense that they used terminology along those lines as well. This is fundamentally a conservative organization resistant to change and we see this even when these rural, feudal mafiosi moved to urban areas in the US.

Just like a medieval tourney was used for a variety of purposes, the mafia's "torneo" seems to have been a way to vote on administrative changes, hold inductions, and communicate rule/policy changes. They may have also partied it up at these, as in Philadelphia there's a reference to them holding Family-wide meetings at a high-ranking member's farm and drinking. It was probably a formal and social event for the membership kind of like a medieval "torneo". Probably no jousting though haha.

The national Assemblea meetings would serve a similar purpose for the greater mafia organization. I'm sure in addition to all-night meetings to discuss national controversies, vote on important matters, and introduce newly-elected leaders they also socialized and built ties. These were like conventions. I'd bet some of the national compari relationships were a result of these get togethers.

No such word as tourna in Italian or Sicilian. In English "ou" does not translate as it does with the sound in "tournament." However, torna, means to come back or return, as it would in this case, meaning the return or re-gathering of the families.

[PolackTony]

Great to have you here, Will.

I think you're on the money with "torneo" being the word Maniaci was using. Both the phonetics and the definition fit.

The mafia's roots are feudal and they kept that mentality. We know the Vita/Calatafimi Family was traditionally called the "Rosignolo" Family after a historic fiefdom in the area and we see similar historic language used to refer to districts a Family was based in. It makes sense that they used terminology along those lines as well. This is fundamentally a conservative organization resistant to change and we see this even when these rural, feudal mafiosi moved to urban areas in the US.

Just like a medieval tourney was used for a variety of purposes, the mafia's "torneo" seems to have been a way to vote on administrative changes, hold inductions, and communicate rule/policy changes. They may have also partied it up at these, as in Philadelphia there's a reference to them holding Family-wide meetings at a high-ranking member's farm and drinking. It was probably a formal and social event for the membership kind of like a medieval "torneo". Probably no jousting though haha.

The national Assemblea meetings would serve a similar purpose for the greater mafia organization. I'm sure in addition to all-night meetings to discuss national controversies, vote on important matters, and introduce newly-elected leaders they also socialized and built ties. These were like conventions. I'd bet some of the national compari relationships were a result of these get togethers.

No such word as tourna in Italian or Sicilian. In English "ou" does not translate as it does with the sound in "tournament." However, torna, means to come back or return, as it would in this case, meaning the return or re-gathering of the families.

Yeah, in Sicilianu the equivalent of the Italian tornare (with tornata and torna as derivations) is turnàri (turnata, turna). As you note, Maniaci’s use of turna to denote a Family meeting is clearly invoking the notion of “returning” or “coming back together”.

[LarryC]

Great to have you here, Will.

I think you're on the money with "torneo" being the word Maniaci was using. Both the phonetics and the definition fit.

The mafia's roots are feudal and they kept that mentality. We know the Vita/Calatafimi Family was traditionally called the "Rosignolo" Family after a historic fiefdom in the area and we see similar historic language used to refer to districts a Family was based in. It makes sense that they used terminology along those lines as well. This is fundamentally a conservative organization resistant to change and we see this even when these rural, feudal mafiosi moved to urban areas in the US.

Just like a medieval tourney was used for a variety of purposes, the mafia's "torneo" seems to have been a way to vote on administrative changes, hold inductions, and communicate rule/policy changes. They may have also partied it up at these, as in Philadelphia there's a reference to them holding Family-wide meetings at a high-ranking member's farm and drinking. It was probably a formal and social event for the membership kind of like a medieval "torneo". Probably no jousting though haha.

The national Assemblea meetings would serve a similar purpose for the greater mafia organization. I'm sure in addition to all-night meetings to discuss national controversies, vote on important matters, and introduce newly-elected leaders they also socialized and built ties. These were like conventions. I'd bet some of the national compari relationships were a result of these get togethers.

No such word as tourna in Italian or Sicilian. In English "ou" does not translate as it does with the sound in "tournament." However, torna, means to come back or return, as it would in this case, meaning the return or re-gathering of the families.

Yeah, in Sicilianu the equivalent of the Italian tornare (with tornata and torna as derivations) is turnàri (turnata, turna). As you note, Maniaci’s use of turna to denote a Family meeting is clearly invoking the notion of “returning” or “coming back together”.

As you mentioned earlier, though, this is an outdated way of calling some kind of family gathering, however infrequent. It's a word we use as in waiting our turn, or it's my turn, etc.

[PolackTony]

Great to have you here, Will.

I think you're on the money with "torneo" being the word Maniaci was using. Both the phonetics and the definition fit.

The mafia's roots are feudal and they kept that mentality. We know the Vita/Calatafimi Family was traditionally called the "Rosignolo" Family after a historic fiefdom in the area and we see similar historic language used to refer to districts a Family was based in. It makes sense that they used terminology along those lines as well. This is fundamentally a conservative organization resistant to change and we see this even when these rural, feudal mafiosi moved to urban areas in the US.

Just like a medieval tourney was used for a variety of purposes, the mafia's "torneo" seems to have been a way to vote on administrative changes, hold inductions, and communicate rule/policy changes. They may have also partied it up at these, as in Philadelphia there's a reference to them holding Family-wide meetings at a high-ranking member's farm and drinking. It was probably a formal and social event for the membership kind of like a medieval "torneo". Probably no jousting though haha.

The national Assemblea meetings would serve a similar purpose for the greater mafia organization. I'm sure in addition to all-night meetings to discuss national controversies, vote on important matters, and introduce newly-elected leaders they also socialized and built ties. These were like conventions. I'd bet some of the national compari relationships were a result of these get togethers.

No such word as tourna in Italian or Sicilian. In English "ou" does not translate as it does with the sound in "tournament." However, torna, means to come back or return, as it would in this case, meaning the return or re-gathering of the families.

Yeah, in Sicilianu the equivalent of the Italian tornare (with tornata and torna as derivations) is turnàri (turnata, turna). As you note, Maniaci’s use of turna to denote a Family meeting is clearly invoking the notion of “returning” or “coming back together”.

As you mentioned earlier, though, this is an outdated way of calling some kind of family gathering, however infrequent. It's a word we use as in waiting our turn, or it's my turn, etc.

Yes, thanks for adding to the conversation also.

I haven't otherwise seen the use of turnari/tornare specifically to refer to meetings in other Families in either the US or Sicily, so one wonders if Maniaci's usage was a now outmoded/archaic idiomatic usage, or if it was a fragment of a larger phrase (with perhaps the agents interviewing him on this occassion -- SA Alexander LeGrand and SA Richard Thompson of the Milwaukee Field Office, not Italians let alone Sicilians -- misunderstanding or forgetting to transcribe part of it).

[LarryC]

Great to have you here, Will.

I think you're on the money with "torneo" being the word Maniaci was using. Both the phonetics and the definition fit.

The mafia's roots are feudal and they kept that mentality. We know the Vita/Calatafimi Family was traditionally called the "Rosignolo" Family after a historic fiefdom in the area and we see similar historic language used to refer to districts a Family was based in. It makes sense that they used terminology along those lines as well. This is fundamentally a conservative organization resistant to change and we see this even when these rural, feudal mafiosi moved to urban areas in the US.

Just like a medieval tourney was used for a variety of purposes, the mafia's "torneo" seems to have been a way to vote on administrative changes, hold inductions, and communicate rule/policy changes. They may have also partied it up at these, as in Philadelphia there's a reference to them holding Family-wide meetings at a high-ranking member's farm and drinking. It was probably a formal and social event for the membership kind of like a medieval "torneo". Probably no jousting though haha.

The national Assemblea meetings would serve a similar purpose for the greater mafia organization. I'm sure in addition to all-night meetings to discuss national controversies, vote on important matters, and introduce newly-elected leaders they also socialized and built ties. These were like conventions. I'd bet some of the national compari relationships were a result of these get togethers.

No such word as tourna in Italian or Sicilian. In English "ou" does not translate as it does with the sound in "tournament." However, torna, means to come back or return, as it would in this case, meaning the return or re-gathering of the families.

Yeah, in Sicilianu the equivalent of the Italian tornare (with tornata and torna as derivations) is turnàri (turnata, turna). As you note, Maniaci’s use of turna to denote a Family meeting is clearly invoking the notion of “returning” or “coming back together”.

As you mentioned earlier, though, this is an outdated way of calling some kind of family gathering, however infrequent. It's a word we use as in waiting our turn, or it's my turn, etc.

Yes, thanks for adding to the conversation also.

I haven't otherwise seen the use of turnari/tornare specifically to refer to meetings in other Families in either the US or Sicily, so one wonders if Maniaci's usage was a now outmoded/archaic idiomatic usage, or if it was a fragment of a larger phrase (with perhaps the agents interviewing him on this occassion -- SA Alexander LeGrand and SA Richard Thompson of the Milwaukee Field Office, not Italians let alone Sicilians -- misunderstanding or forgetting to transcribe part of it).

I think either theory is plausible. There are many “archaic” words and phrases, especially in Sicilian, that aren’t used anymore, even by us that still hold onto the Sicilian language. There will be things that were last said by our parents/grandparents. I assume just like in English.

As an aside, I enjoy the podcasts and you, especially, have a good grasp on the language and pronunciations of names, towns, etc in Sicily. All around, though, it’s a good job by all!

[Don Mosseria]

Hi Larry and Tony - thanks very much for the input!

No such word as tourna in Italian or Sicilian. In English "ou" does not translate as it does with the sound in "tournament." However, torna, means to come back or return, as it would in this case, meaning the return or re-gathering of the families.

I certainly was not arguing that Tourna with the “ou” is Italian or Sicilian. This was how the anglophone agents transcribed a word they did not know from Maniaci, so I was positing that the word that Maniaci may have actually said could have been a Sicilian form of the Italian word Torneo, meaning Tournament/Tourney. My stab at what the Sicilian form of that may be was Torne, which could have sounded like “Tourna” to the English speaking agents. But I speak neither Italian nor Sicilian, so I may well have that wrong. And if the word Torna means a family gathering, being something like “a returning”, and you say that therefore makes more sense that Torneo/Torne as the word Maniaci would have used for a gathering of his mafia family, I certainly accept that.

Are you a native Sicilian speaker Larry? Awesome. Would you mind telling me what the Sicilian form of Torneo would actually be? Thanks!

Yeah, in Sicilianu the equivalent of the Italian tornare (with tornata and torna as derivations) is turnàri (turnata, turna). As you note, Maniaci’s use of turna to denote a Family meeting is clearly invoking the notion of “returning” or “coming back together”.

Interestingly, that is the exact same etymology of the English words Tournament or Tourney, and the Italian Torneo:

“The Old French word, tournament, was in use in the 12th century, from a verb tornoier, ultimately Latin tornare "to turn". The same word also gave rise to the Italian torneo (modern English tourney, modern French tournoi). The French terms were adopted in English (via Anglo-Norman) by 1300.”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tournamen ... #Etymology

So you guys have actually clarified for me why the etymology of the word Tournament relates to the concept of turning. This had confused me in the past. But a feudal tourney is the exact same kind of (re)gathering. All the nobility and chivalry of a fiefdom are coming (back) together. So even if Maniaci’s transcribed “Tourna” in fact refers to a more pedestrian kind of family gathering, a “Torna”, the common route of the words, and the definite similarity in form and function between an assembly of a whole mafia family and an assembly of a whole knightly fiefdom, means that I still feel a kind of spiritual link between the two. Maybe I am just a romantic - but these are Romance languages after all, Lol.

[PolackTony]

The Italian torneo is turnìu in Sicilianu.

Now, here's something very interesting also. In a late 19th Century Sicilian text, turnìu is also glossed as a translation of the Italian word giuramento -- literally, "oath".

[Don Mosseria]

Okay, thanks Tony. So essentially, the O’s become U’s, is that right? I don’t understand the accent on the i I am afraid. But what about dropping the final vowel? Certainly Italian Americans do that a lot. So prosciutto becomes projut, mozzarella become muzadel, etc. And as I noted in my original long piece, this seems to happen even when the last two syllables are vowels. Hence Valachi pronouncing Masseria as Masseri. This is why I thought Torneo would become Torne - drop the final vowel. Though with your O/U clarification, my theory would make it Turne, or Turni, but with the i accented. Having said all this, I think it might be the case that that is more of a Neapolitan thing than a Sicilian? I am not sure… But Michael DiLeonardo, for example, does not pronounce the final vowel on Bisaquinese, which one would in formal Italian. And I’ve noticed you dropping the final vowel in Sicilian demonyms in your videos a certain amount too I think - Palermitan for Palermitani. Sorry - I have a tendency to write too much…

Yeah, that info about Turniu also being glossed as a translation for “oath” is super interesting. It would be very interesting to look into the etymology and derivation for that. It does seem from what you and LarryC said above that the agents’ transliteration of Maniaci’s “Tourna” probably does align more closely to the word Torna than the word Torneo/Turni. But, considering the very close etymology of the two terms, plus this “oath” element, one does wonder if the concept of “family gathering” in a clannish society like 19th Century Sicily does have connotations of something quite like a gathering of a sacred blood bound oath bound group? In a way that a get together of the more atomised family structure in early 21st Century Anglo-American society for Thanksgiving or Christmas might not? The way Joe Bonanno writes about the Bonanno/Bonventre family/clan vs. the Buccellato family/clan certainly has overtones of feuding feudal dynasties. Starks v Lannisters stuff. Montagues v Capulets. So maybe the concept of “family gathering” in 19th Century Sicily wasn’t actually that far from the concept of the gathering of a fief’s nobility at a feudal tournament, where such people would be largely related to each other and oath bound to fight for one another? Or maybe I am romanticising again…?

[PolackTony]

In Napuletan’ (meaning not just the dialect of Napoli proper, but more generally the Neapolitan language, local dialects of which are spoken from Northern Calabria across Campania and into Puglia), non-stressed vowels in the word final position are turned into a schwa (“uh” sound) or elided (prosciutto —> brosciutt-uh -> brosciutt’). Hence the dropping in a lot of Ital-American speech. This weakening of a non-stressed final is not common in dialects of Sicilian in the same way (Sicilianu being a different language than Napuletan’). The accent in Sicilianu indicates stress, thus turniu for an English speaker would be pronounced like “tour-NEE-oo”.

[Don Mosseria]

Wow. I am highly impressed with your knowledge of dialect/language across Southern Italy. I have said it before, but the work you guys do is formidable. So Joey Diaz says it wrong then in The Many Saints of Newark when he says “Hey! I’m Sicilian’!” rather than “I’m Sicilianu!” This is the problem with being in England and getting my dialectical understanding from actors in American movies, lol. I did ask my British-Sicilian barber about this, but I’m not sure how good his Sicilianu actually is. He did tell me he thought the vowel dropping was more Neapolitan though. I’ve spent quite a lot of time googling it, but never found a clear explanation, so I really appreciate it, thanks.

Any way, it definitely seems on this basis that Maniaci was saying Torna rather than anything to do with Torneo. Cheers

[LarryC]

Hi Larry and Tony - thanks very much for the input!

No such word as tourna in Italian or Sicilian. In English "ou" does not translate as it does with the sound in "tournament." However, torna, means to come back or return, as it would in this case, meaning the return or re-gathering of the families.

I certainly was not arguing that Tourna with the “ou” is Italian or Sicilian. This was how the anglophone agents transcribed a word they did not know from Maniaci, so I was positing that the word that Maniaci may have actually said could have been a Sicilian form of the Italian word Torneo, meaning Tournament/Tourney. My stab at what the Sicilian form of that may be was Torne, which could have sounded like “Tourna” to the English speaking agents. But I speak neither Italian nor Sicilian, so I may well have that wrong. And if the word Torna means a family gathering, being something like “a returning”, and you say that therefore makes more sense that Torneo/Torne as the word Maniaci would have used for a gathering of his mafia family, I certainly accept that.

Are you a native Sicilian speaker Larry? Awesome. Would you mind telling me what the Sicilian form of Torneo would actually be? Thanks!

Yeah, in Sicilianu the equivalent of the Italian tornare (with tornata and torna as derivations) is turnàri (turnata, turna). As you note, Maniaci’s use of turna to denote a Family meeting is clearly invoking the notion of “returning” or “coming back together”.

Interestingly, that is the exact same etymology of the English words Tournament or Tourney, and the Italian Torneo:

“The Old French word, tournament, was in use in the 12th century, from a verb tornoier, ultimately Latin tornare "to turn". The same word also gave rise to the Italian torneo (modern English tourney, modern French tournoi). The French terms were adopted in English (via Anglo-Norman) by 1300.”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tournamen ... #Etymology

So you guys have actually clarified for me why the etymology of the word Tournament relates to the concept of turning. This had confused me in the past. But a feudal tourney is the exact same kind of (re)gathering. All the nobility and chivalry of a fiefdom are coming (back) together. So even if Maniaci’s transcribed “Tourna” in fact refers to a more pedestrian kind of family gathering, a “Torna”, the common route of the words, and the definite similarity in form and function between an assembly of a whole mafia family and an assembly of a whole knightly fiefdom, means that I still feel a kind of spiritual link between the two. Maybe I am just a romantic - but these are Romance languages after all, Lol.

Yes, as Polack Tony said, in Sicilian, it would be turniu. However, this is a very outdated word and not used anymore. There are many Sicilian words and phrases that are outdated. Yes, I speak Sicilian.

The "o" are "u" in Sicilian because it's masculine. Bello becomes beddu, for example. If it's feminine as in "Bella sicilia", we say "bedda Sicilia" We do not drop the last vowel in Sicilian, either. I don't know why people say this, it's false. This is something Americans do. The "gabagool" club as we call them.