Project Otremens Recordings

[Newyorkempire]

If Violi did beat out 30 other American candidates..

He didn’t say ‘30 American candidates’ he said ‘30 guys’ which sounds like the entirety of the Family not just one side of the border.

It says right on the documents above "30 AMERICAN CANDIDATES". Pay attention.

Yes I see that but that’s not what Violi said he said ‘30 guys’ with absolutely no mention of where they’re from. Someone else has added the ‘American’ bit. I’m not saying that’s totally false because I don’t know but we do have that quote from Dom and we know he didn’t say ‘30 American guys’.

If not true it just shows you any narrative can be added by anyone to fit their belief and then be published.

[stubbs]

Define "street activity". No one is on the street corner doing anything. Activity would happen over dinners, at bars, family gatherings, sporting events, stags, strip clubs, etc. etc. "Street" is extremely vague and naiive to assume it happens in open air blocks and alleyways in Buffalo. Same goes for Hamilton. Street activity to me would mean muggings, robberies, corner drug sales, shootings, etc.

The term “street activity” doesn’t mean literally standing on a street corner in the projects selling vials of crack. It’s just a term used to mean illegal activity.

Saying something like “Todaro isn’t invovled in the streets” would just mean something like, “Todaro isn’t invovled in any illegal activity”.

[Newyorkempire]

Define "street activity". No one is on the street corner doing anything. Activity would happen over dinners, at bars, family gatherings, sporting events, stags, strip clubs, etc. etc. "Street" is extremely vague and naiive to assume it happens in open air blocks and alleyways in Buffalo. Same goes for Hamilton. Street activity to me would mean muggings, robberies, corner drug sales, shootings, etc.

The term “street activity” doesn’t mean literally standing on a street corner in the projects selling vials of crack. It’s just a term used to mean illegal activity.

Saying something like “Todaro isn’t invovled in the streets” would just mean something like, “Todaro isn’t invovled in any illegal activity”.

Then he is in fact involved in illegal activity if he is appointing underbosses to a criminal enterprise. So as a result hes involved in your definition of street activity.

[B.]

Was it tribute or was Vito Rizzuto an investor?

With this subject it's very easy to confuse return on investment for tribute which can appear the same from the outside. I define tribute as receiving money out of respect/status/rank without providing capital or resources of some kind.

What makes it murkier is that often people are secret investors though with an illegal operation that distinction doesn't matter.

The sportsbooks to me are by far the most mysterious development up there.

It's the main thing I find implausible in the Scoppa book. Vito owing Bertolo ( Or was it Gervasi? I confuse the 2 ....) money on a sportsbook.

I can't reconcile Vito being the point man for a massive gambling expansion in Ontario, and owing money to the local Montreal book. I also don't understand why or how the sportsbook for the Montreal organization became consolidated into one ledger. And how are there NO American-Bonnano shareholders? Like there's Bikers in there but no New Yorkers? It's like... what happened?

If New York members weren't investors in the sportsbook they wouldn't be shareholders. The only consistent tribute the Bonannos asked for Family-wide was Christmas, boss's birthday, and then the warchest, with the local joker poker profits intended to go into the latter.

From the excerpt Antimafia posted, it specifically says Rizzuto "invested" in Ontario which more or less answered my original question. There's a massive difference between someone "paying tribute" versus giving someone a return on their investment. If we don't know the arrangement from the outside it can look like "tribute" but if you look into the actual arrangements that's often an inaccurate term and that's true for NYC as well. Tribute does exist but outsiders tend to frame every transaction that way.

I don't know anything about Rizzuto and the sportsbook but what's inconsistent about him owing someone money? He was a very powerful and influential figure but he's a member and he can receive money from one operation while owing money on another.

[Pmac2]

I imagine Vito rizzuto came to NYC alot in the 90s you wonder how he was welcomed. You always heard about when guys went to montreal but i would assume massino rolled out the red carpet for him.

[CabriniGreen]

I imagine Vito rizzuto came to NYC alot in the 90s you wonder how he was welcomed. You always heard about when guys went to montreal but i would assume massino rolled out the red carpet for him.

Bro... I doubt Vito ever went to NY after those hits... I'm open to being wrong. I feel like we would have gotten some type of surveillance or something. But neither him, or his dad come off as like, sitting in reverence of NY.

This is why they had guys like Sciascia and LoPresti, to go to NY.

[CabriniGreen]

Was it tribute or was Vito Rizzuto an investor?

With this subject it's very easy to confuse return on investment for tribute which can appear the same from the outside. I define tribute as receiving money out of respect/status/rank without providing capital or resources of some kind.

What makes it murkier is that often people are secret investors though with an illegal operation that distinction doesn't matter.

The sportsbooks to me are by far the most mysterious development up there.

It's the main thing I find implausible in the Scoppa book. Vito owing Bertolo ( Or was it Gervasi? I confuse the 2 ....) money on a sportsbook.

I can't reconcile Vito being the point man for a massive gambling expansion in Ontario, and owing money to the local Montreal book. I also don't understand why or how the sportsbook for the Montreal organization became consolidated into one ledger. And how are there NO American-Bonnano shareholders? Like there's Bikers in there but no New Yorkers? It's like... what happened?

If New York members weren't investors in the sportsbook they wouldn't be shareholders. The only consistent tribute the Bonannos asked for Family-wide was Christmas, boss's birthday, and then the warchest, with the local joker poker profits intended to go into the latter.

From the excerpt Antimafia posted, it specifically says Rizzuto "invested" in Ontario which more or less answered my original question. There's a massive difference between someone "paying tribute" versus giving someone a return on their investment. If we don't know the arrangement from the outside it can look like "tribute" but if you look into the actual arrangements that's often an inaccurate term and that's true for NYC as well. Tribute does exist but outsiders tend to frame every transaction that way.

I don't know anything about Rizzuto and the sportsbook but what's inconsistent about him owing someone money? He was a very powerful and influential figure but he's a member and he can receive money from one operation while owing money on another.

The whole original reason the Bonnanos WENT up there was supposedly to bring the bookies who fled NY back into the fold. It should be more fundamental than even the drugs.

And it's a bad look to owe your own office money. Arrilotta said he was bad with that, betting with his own office.

And Bro.... I really don't get this tribute thing. So they WERE right in wacking Montagna for his unreasonable tribute demands? How do you demand 25% with no percentage in? He didn't put anything into construction either but still wanted the extortion payments. They were doing that since the early 60s, they didn't NEED him for that.

[B.]

We don't actually know when/how the Bonannos first established themselves in Montreal. Galante did organize a decina / inducted members with Joe Bonanno's approval, but there were colonies from the familiar Western Agrigento villages in Montreal with mafia ties and interesting visitors dating back to the early 20th century. The Cattolicensi were with/around the Bonanno Family in NYC dating back to the 1920s/30s so a Bonanno relationship with those towns didn't first begin when the Rizzuto-Renda clan settled permanently in Canada later on.

You also have Joe Bonanno's mafioso first cousin Giuseppe Silinonte (an ex-Williamsburg murderer/bootlegger in Endicott at the time) spending a month in Montreal in 1931 right after Maranzano's murder and Maranzano allegedly sent his Family there for protection during the Castellammarese War. There's likely much more to it than we know but unfortunately we lack sources who can clarify exactly what was there and how it connected to the Bonanno Family in a formal sense pre-Galante. Remote crews aren't created randomly and usually utilize existing relationships.

Personally I don't believe it was just Galante attempting to strongarm local rackets even though that was part of what he did. Joe and Bill Bonanno were themselves taking a great personal interest in Montreal but refused to shed much light on it in their memoirs.

--

If Montagna was still part of the Bonanno administration or the Montreal capodecina he probably felt he had a right to control/benefit from their interests there during his attempted reorganization. Tribute does exist, especially when the activities are "licensed" by the mafia and use those connections, so Montagna may have felt entitled to it given it was what the Bonanno Family considered their own jurisdiction. He also wasn't killed just for demanding tribute, it was full-scale warfare and he ran into problems with his own allies in addition to the enemy faction.

There are indications Montagna was attempting to place another Montreal Bonanno member as the capodecina (referred to as "godfather" in the press), with DiMaulo and Gallo being candidates. This raises questions about Montagna's rank at the time -- was he still part of the administration or a Montreal-based ruling panel member who then sought to have a local capodecina under him? This is what Buffalo did in the mid-2010s by promoting Violi to underboss while keeping his uncle as capodecina. Asaro told Gary Valenti Montagna was "one of the bosses from New York" when he talked to him about the murder but didn't indicate if that was his present status.

I don't know if it was ever confirmed but Montagna was alleged to have met with the Violis just before the war. At the time people theorized this was to get 'ndrangheta approval (that connection can't be ignored) but now we know Domenico was a Buffalo associate and his uncles were probably already Buffalo members. We can see the Luppino-Violi faction were very amenable to NYC Bonannos visiting their area and inducting a member there, the Bonannos following jurisdictional protocol by getting Buffalo's approval. Violi clearly has relationships still to his father's old circle like Arcadi and a younger Cotroni, Arcadi likely being a Bonanno member.

Now we have to factor in that a "high-ranking Bonanno" member was introducing Caruana-Cuntreras as amici nostri and the Buffalo faction in Ontario had to decide whether or not to recognize them. Was that a Montreal Bonanno leader or an NYC-based one? Was it someone from the Sicilian faction? That's one of the most interesting new details for me in addition to Gambino-linked Los Angeles members being made in Ontario.

There are a lot of organizational politics at play and unfortunately Canadian law enforcement doesn't use the same designations the members use so we have to put the politics together ourselves with the limited available evidence.

[B.]

Outsiders: Musitano went into partnership with Vito Rizzuto... the "Musitano Crime Family" must have merged with the "Rizzuto Crime Family."

Insiders: Musitano was an alleged Buffalo member in alliance with Vito Rizzuto of the Bonannos, who both had issues with members of their own Families.

--

Outsiders: "The Rizzuto Crime Family" and the Caruana-Cuntrera clan hate the Bonannos and don't recognize them.

Insiders: The Luppinos were formally introduced to Caruana-Cuntreras by a high-ranking Bonanno member but reluctant to recognize them.

--

Outsiders: They don't care about Cosa Nostra protocol in Canada.

Insiders: Violi can't tell his uncles he's the new underboss because protocol requires that Joe Todaro do it.

--

Outsiders: The Buffalo and Los Angeles Families are defunct.

Insiders: Los Angeles inducted members in Ontario and pissed off the Buffalo Family by violating jurisdictional protocol.

--

Outsiders: Sal Montagna won't do anything in Canada. He'll fade into obscurity.

Insiders: Montagna provokes violent warfare as he attempts to reorganize the Bonanno Montreal decina. He bursts through a window with bullets in his flesh and desperately swims across an icy river before dying in the snow.

--

Moral: there is no such thing as a mafia expert. We're all just dudes hanging around until the next member source shows up.

[Newyorkempire]

Outsiders: Musitano went into partnership with Vito Rizzuto... the "Musitano Crime Family" must have merged with the "Rizzuto Crime Family."

Insiders: Musitano was an alleged Buffalo member in alliance with Vito Rizzuto of the Bonannos, who both had issues with members of their own Families.

--

Outsiders: "The Rizzuto Crime Family" and the Caruana-Cuntrera clan hate the Bonannos and don't recognize them.

Insiders: The Luppinos were formally introduced to Caruana-Cuntreras by a high-ranking Bonanno member but reluctant to recognize them.

--

Outsiders: They don't care about Cosa Nostra protocol in Canada.

Insiders: Violi can't tell his uncles he's the new underboss because protocol requires that Joe Todaro do it.

--

Outsiders: The Buffalo and Los Angeles Families are defunct.

Insiders: Los Angeles inducted members in Ontario and pissed off the Buffalo Family by violating jurisdictional protocol.

--

Outsiders: Sal Montagna won't do anything in Canada. He'll fade into obscurity.

Insiders: Montagna provokes violent warfare as he attempts to reorganize the Bonanno Montreal decina. He bursts through a window with bullets in his flesh and desperately swims across an icy river before dying in the snow.

--

Moral: there is no such thing as a mafia expert. We're all just dudes hanging around until the next member source shows up.

^^^^^^^^^

[chin_gigante]

Now we have to factor in that a "high-ranking Bonanno" member was introducing Caruana-Cuntreras as amici nostri and the Buffalo faction in Ontario had to decide whether or not to recognize them. Was that a Montreal Bonanno leader or an NYC-based one? Was it someone from the Sicilian faction? That's one of the most interesting new details for me in addition to Gambino-linked Los Angeles members being made in Ontario.

Thinking that could've been John Zancocchio. We know he was the one who "informed" Buffalo about Morena's induction in 2015, then he was serving as consigliere (or at least "the position" rather than "the title" of consigliere per Lovaglio) by the time the talk of recognising the Cunteras comes up in late 2016.

[motorfab]

We don't actually know when/how the Bonannos first established themselves in Montreal. Galante did organize a decina / inducted members with Joe Bonanno's approval, but there were colonies from the familiar Western Agrigento villages in Montreal with mafia ties and interesting visitors dating back to the early 20th century. The Cattolicensi were with/around the Bonanno Family in NYC dating back to the 1920s/30s so a Bonanno relationship with those towns didn't first begin when the Rizzuto-Renda clan settled permanently in Canada later on.

You also have Joe Bonanno's mafioso first cousin Giuseppe Silinonte (an ex-Williamsburg murderer/bootlegger in Endicott at the time) spending a month in Montreal in 1931 right after Maranzano's murder and Maranzano allegedly sent his Family there for protection during the Castellammarese War. There's likely much more to it than we know but unfortunately we lack sources who can clarify exactly what was there and how it connected to the Bonanno Family in a formal sense pre-Galante. Remote crews aren't created randomly and usually utilize existing relationships.

Personally I don't believe it was just Galante attempting to strongarm local rackets even though that was part of what he did. Joe and Bill Bonanno were themselves taking a great personal interest in Montreal but refused to shed much light on it in their memoirs.

I quite agree, the Bonanno Crime Family indeed had interests or connections in Montreal well before the 1950s.

But if I may (and sorry if I stray from the initial topic), I would like to bring a point which is only very rarely addressed by American researchers, but which nevertheless makes consensus among Canadian researchers:

Joe Bonanno sent Galante to Montreal to take him to safety following pressure from law enforcement, that's a fact. But that only explains why he sent Galante.

The main reason why Bonanno sent someone to organize a decina is that he wanted to go all out in heroin trafficking and that local gangsters controlled the port of Montreal which was one of the main entry points to the USA, much less guarded than that of NY. And at the time the heroin came from France.

The Cotronis and their men spoke French unlike the Americans, so they needed them to communicate with the French traffickers, who themselves did not speak a word of English. Especially since just like the Bonannos, the French gangsters also have a long criminal history with local gangsters, and a good number of traffickers settled in Montreal during the 1940s and 1950s such as François Spirito, Joseph Orsini, Antoine D'Agostino and a little later Paul Mondoloni or Jean-Baptiste Croce. As far as I know, Montreal was already a refuge for French mobsters on the run during the 20s/30s and probably before that.

I know I often repeat the same things on this subject, and I'm probably breaking your balls with it guys, but look no further why the Bonanno Crime Family set up shop in Montreal, the reason is there. I insist on that because like I said, it's very underestimated, even ignored, and yet all the evidences are here

-------------------

Moral: there is no such thing as a mafia expert. We're all just dudes hanging around until the next member source shows up.

Oh man, you said it all, I couldn't agree more. And even if I'm not too much interested by the Vito Rizzuto years (yeah, I find his father much more interesting), and the turmoil after 2004. It's always fascinating to see all the connections and events happening in Canada.

Geez, we are even wondering if there is not a return of mafia activity in Los Angeles. If that's not proof that the mafia in Canada is full of surprises, I don't know what it is !

[PolackTony]

a good number of traffickers settled in Montreal during the 1940s and 1950s such as François Spirito, Joseph Orsini, Antoine D'Agostino and a little later Paul Mondoloni or Jean-Baptiste Croce.

All Corsi, it would seem. Wonder how many Corsicans of that era still spoke their native language and if so how many could communicate reasonably well with Italians (Corsu being similar to the Toscano dialects from which Standard Italian was derived).

[motorfab]

a good number of traffickers settled in Montreal during the 1940s and 1950s such as François Spirito, Joseph Orsini, Antoine D'Agostino and a little later Paul Mondoloni or Jean-Baptiste Croce.

All Corsi, it would seem. Wonder how many Corsicans of that era still spoke their native language and if so how many could communicate reasonably well with Italians (Corsu being similar to the Toscano dialects from which Standard Italian was derived).

Spirito & D'Agostino were from Italian origins. I can't find exactly for Spirito because I haven't sources saying the same thing, but it looks his parents were Neapolitans and he's born in Italy or in Marseille. Same for D'Agostino, he's Neapolitan but he's born in Algeria.

For the Corsican dialect, as far as I know, the old timers who moved from their island to the mainland still spoke the Corsican dialect, even those born on the mainland because their parents speak it. Not sure for the actual generation on the mainland, but the dialect is very used in Corsica today. Corsica is one of the few regions of France with Alsace & Bretagne where people still use their own dialect. I'm not an expert for this particular dialect, but it's true it looks like a lot to the standard Italian.

[PolackTony]

a good number of traffickers settled in Montreal during the 1940s and 1950s such as François Spirito, Joseph Orsini, Antoine D'Agostino and a little later Paul Mondoloni or Jean-Baptiste Croce.

All Corsi, it would seem. Wonder how many Corsicans of that era still spoke their native language and if so how many could communicate reasonably well with Italians (Corsu being similar to the Toscano dialects from which Standard Italian was derived).

Spirito & D'Agostino were from Italian origins. I can't find exactly for Spirito because I haven't sources saying the same thing, but it looks his parents were Neapolitans and he's born in Italy or in Marseille. Same for D'Agostino, he's Neapolitan but he's born in Algeria.

For the Corsican dialect, as far as I know, the old timers who moved from their island to the mainland still spoke the Corsican dialect, even those born on the mainland because their parents speak it. Not sure for the actual generation on the mainland, but the dialect is very used in Corsica today. Corsica is one of the few regions of France with Alsace & Bretagne where people still use their own dialect. I'm not an expert for this particular dialect, but it's true it looks like a lot to the standard Italian.

Thanks. Yeah, I guess if there were Corsicans they would’ve been Spiriti and D’Agostini