General Chicago Outfit Info Dumping Ground

[Coloboy]

Coloboy,

You think I don't know some people claim Ferriola was just a front boss and Sam and Johnny were already calling shots?

The feds consider Ferriola the boss '86-'89. I could split hairs every reference to Ferriola or I could just go with what the official record is, despite the questions of exact status (acting or not).

I wouldnt even respond on this thread if the poster wasn't questioning by credentials, claiming i miss "little stuff" which gives insight into me being some sort of fraud reporter/expert.

Bro, I worked for the Illinois ATTY General's office in oc investigations in the 2000s, my connections in CHI are vast. I am fully aware of the Ferriola debate.

The ball busting on here obviously triggers me. Its all good, just my two cents or your two cents.

Scott B

Im one of those that think Joe Nagel was boss for a short time. I know Nick Calabrese said otherwise but there were other informants that said the opposite.

Yeah, but Scarpelli and Lenny Patrick both said Carlisi succeeded Aiuppa. It's pretty tough to beat their intel coupled with Nick's. I just think there was a dearth of good informants in the mid to late eighties. That's the benefit of having so few made guys flip.

This was always my take as well. Additionally, it just makes sense operationally. Aiuppa puts his guy in there (Carlisi) and Cerone puts his guy in there (Difronzo). Money and decisions continue to flow the same way.

[Snakes]

Coloboy,

You think I don't know some people claim Ferriola was just a front boss and Sam and Johnny were already calling shots?

The feds consider Ferriola the boss '86-'89. I could split hairs every reference to Ferriola or I could just go with what the official record is, despite the questions of exact status (acting or not).

I wouldnt even respond on this thread if the poster wasn't questioning by credentials, claiming i miss "little stuff" which gives insight into me being some sort of fraud reporter/expert.

Bro, I worked for the Illinois ATTY General's office in oc investigations in the 2000s, my connections in CHI are vast. I am fully aware of the Ferriola debate.

The ball busting on here obviously triggers me. Its all good, just my two cents or your two cents.

Scott B

Im one of those that think Joe Nagel was boss for a short time. I know Nick Calabrese said otherwise but there were other informants that said the opposite.

Yeah, but Scarpelli and Lenny Patrick both said Carlisi succeeded Aiuppa. It's pretty tough to beat their intel coupled with Nick's. I just think there was a dearth of good informants in the mid to late eighties. That's the benefit of having so few made guys flip.

This was always my take as well. Additionally, it just makes sense operationally. Aiuppa puts his guy in there (Carlisi) and Cerone puts his guy in there (Difronzo). Money and decisions continue to flow the same way.

I also think Ferriola was pretty bad off health-wise, too. He very well could have been boss, if not for his ticker.

[Patrickgold]

Coloboy,

You think I don't know some people claim Ferriola was just a front boss and Sam and Johnny were already calling shots?

The feds consider Ferriola the boss '86-'89. I could split hairs every reference to Ferriola or I could just go with what the official record is, despite the questions of exact status (acting or not).

I wouldnt even respond on this thread if the poster wasn't questioning by credentials, claiming i miss "little stuff" which gives insight into me being some sort of fraud reporter/expert.

Bro, I worked for the Illinois ATTY General's office in oc investigations in the 2000s, my connections in CHI are vast. I am fully aware of the Ferriola debate.

The ball busting on here obviously triggers me. Its all good, just my two cents or your two cents.

Scott B

Im one of those that think Joe Nagel was boss for a short time. I know Nick Calabrese said otherwise but there were other informants that said the opposite.

Yeah, but Scarpelli and Lenny Patrick both said Carlisi succeeded Aiuppa. It's pretty tough to beat their intel coupled with Nick's. I just think there was a dearth of good informants in the mid to late eighties. That's the benefit of having so few made guys flip.

This was always my take as well. Additionally, it just makes sense operationally. Aiuppa puts his guy in there (Carlisi) and Cerone puts his guy in there (Difronzo). Money and decisions continue to flow the same way.

I also think Ferriola was pretty bad off health-wise, too. He very well could have been boss, if not for his ticker.

Definitely valid points. What I just don’t understand is why did the FBI continue to say he was boss for that 3 year span well into the 2000s if they had this info? Definitely makes sense for Aiuppa and Cerone putting their own guys in the top spots. Also, what’s interesting about Nick Calabrese’s testimony is that he places Sam Carlisi at the Spilotro murder. Why would a mob boss actually participate in the murder. From my knowledge, Nick C did not place Ferriola there. he placed Infelice there and he was not there. Maybe he got him mixed up with Ferriola?

[Snakes]

Coloboy,

You think I don't know some people claim Ferriola was just a front boss and Sam and Johnny were already calling shots?

The feds consider Ferriola the boss '86-'89. I could split hairs every reference to Ferriola or I could just go with what the official record is, despite the questions of exact status (acting or not).

I wouldnt even respond on this thread if the poster wasn't questioning by credentials, claiming i miss "little stuff" which gives insight into me being some sort of fraud reporter/expert.

Bro, I worked for the Illinois ATTY General's office in oc investigations in the 2000s, my connections in CHI are vast. I am fully aware of the Ferriola debate.

The ball busting on here obviously triggers me. Its all good, just my two cents or your two cents.

Scott B

Im one of those that think Joe Nagel was boss for a short time. I know Nick Calabrese said otherwise but there were other informants that said the opposite.

Yeah, but Scarpelli and Lenny Patrick both said Carlisi succeeded Aiuppa. It's pretty tough to beat their intel coupled with Nick's. I just think there was a dearth of good informants in the mid to late eighties. That's the benefit of having so few made guys flip.

This was always my take as well. Additionally, it just makes sense operationally. Aiuppa puts his guy in there (Carlisi) and Cerone puts his guy in there (Difronzo). Money and decisions continue to flow the same way.

I also think Ferriola was pretty bad off health-wise, too. He very well could have been boss, if not for his ticker.

Definitely valid points. What I just don’t understand is why did the FBI continue to say he was boss for that 3 year span well into the 2000s if they had this info? Definitely makes sense for Aiuppa and Cerone putting their own guys in the top spots. Also, what’s interesting about Nick Calabrese’s testimony is that he places Sam Carlisi at the Spilotro murder. Why would a mob boss actually participate in the murder. From my knowledge, Nick C did not place Ferriola there. he placed Infelice there and he was not there. Maybe he got him mixed up with Ferriola?

I don't think the FBI carried Ferriola as boss after the late 80s. Maybe some media outlets and other secondary sources did. Nick testified that Ferriola was in the basement. He also said he "thought" Infelise was there, but this was disproven because Infelise was under surveillance at a different location that day. It was one of the few slip ups he made on the witness stand.

[Patrickgold]

Coloboy,

You think I don't know some people claim Ferriola was just a front boss and Sam and Johnny were already calling shots?

The feds consider Ferriola the boss '86-'89. I could split hairs every reference to Ferriola or I could just go with what the official record is, despite the questions of exact status (acting or not).

I wouldnt even respond on this thread if the poster wasn't questioning by credentials, claiming i miss "little stuff" which gives insight into me being some sort of fraud reporter/expert.

Bro, I worked for the Illinois ATTY General's office in oc investigations in the 2000s, my connections in CHI are vast. I am fully aware of the Ferriola debate.

The ball busting on here obviously triggers me. Its all good, just my two cents or your two cents.

Scott B

Im one of those that think Joe Nagel was boss for a short time. I know Nick Calabrese said otherwise but there were other informants that said the opposite.

Yeah, but Scarpelli and Lenny Patrick both said Carlisi succeeded Aiuppa. It's pretty tough to beat their intel coupled with Nick's. I just think there was a dearth of good informants in the mid to late eighties. That's the benefit of having so few made guys flip.

This was always my take as well. Additionally, it just makes sense operationally. Aiuppa puts his guy in there (Carlisi) and Cerone puts his guy in there (Difronzo). Money and decisions continue to flow the same way.

I also think Ferriola was pretty bad off health-wise, too. He very well could have been boss, if not for his ticker.

Definitely valid points. What I just don’t understand is why did the FBI continue to say he was boss for that 3 year span well into the 2000s if they had this info? Definitely makes sense for Aiuppa and Cerone putting their own guys in the top spots. Also, what’s interesting about Nick Calabrese’s testimony is that he places Sam Carlisi at the Spilotro murder. Why would a mob boss actually participate in the murder. From my knowledge, Nick C did not place Ferriola there. he placed Infelice there and he was not there. Maybe he got him mixed up with Ferriola?

I don't think the FBI carried Ferriola as boss after the late 80s. Maybe some media outlets and other secondary sources did. Nick testified that Ferriola was in the basement. He also said he "thought" Infelise was there, but this was disproven because Infelise was under surveillance at a different location that day. It was one of the few slip ups he made on the witness stand.

You’re right Ferriola was supposedly there. What a bizarre murder scene. Basically the entire top leadership and then some committing murder at the same time. And on top of that, the two being murdered were two of the most high profile gangsters in the country. How did they get away with it considering all the surveillance each of these individuals had to have on them? Really makes you wonder

[Coloboy]

The big "if" with the Spilotro thing is whether you take Nick's testimony as the gospel. It's possible he had other motives, who knows. If it went down as he described, then I've always taken it as an old school message. There are new bosses in town (carlisi/Difronzo), and we are mean as hell too. "Watch what we are capable of" kind of thing. Just because Aiuppa and Cerone are off the street doesn't mean you get to do whatever the hell you want.

[chin_gigante]

Thought it was an interesting that Calabrese places Carlisi at the murders of the Spilotro brothers when he had recently succeeded Aiuppa as boss. There's an interesting parallel in New York a few months after that when Vic Amuso (at that point having very recently been appointed official boss of the Lucchese family) is present for the murder of Buddy Luongo.

[Snakes]

Thought it was an interesting that Calabrese places Carlisi at the murders of the Spilotro brothers when he had recently succeeded Aiuppa as boss. There's an interesting parallel in New York a few months after that when Vic Amuso (at that point having very recently been appointed official boss of the Lucchese family) is present for the murder of Buddy Luongo.

Yeah, multiple admin/capos were present at the murder, as the idea was to make it a ceremony to promote Spilotro to capo and to make his brother Mike. Obviously, there were alarm bells ringing in Mike's head as he gave his jewelry to his wife before leaving, but the sham making ceremony was still how they set it up. Frank Sr was also caught on the prison tapes saying that DiFronzo (underboss) had set it up.

[Patrickgold]

Thought it was an interesting that Calabrese places Carlisi at the murders of the Spilotro brothers when he had recently succeeded Aiuppa as boss. There's an interesting parallel in New York a few months after that when Vic Amuso (at that point having very recently been appointed official boss of the Lucchese family) is present for the murder of Buddy Luongo.

Yeah, multiple admin/capos were present at the murder, as the idea was to make it a ceremony to promote Spilotro to capo and to make his brother Mike. Obviously, there were alarm bells ringing in Mike's head as he gave his jewelry to his wife before leaving, but the sham making ceremony was still how they set it up. Frank Sr was also caught on the prison tapes saying that DiFronzo (underboss) had set it up.

Even if it was a sham making ceremony, everyone was already in the basement so it’s not like they were visible for the Spilotro’s to determine if they were in danger. There was no need to put the entire Outfit at risk like they supposedly did. I believe they were attacked as they were coming down the stairs. That being said, it worked out for them but could have easily have gone wrong.

[Snakes]

Thought it was an interesting that Calabrese places Carlisi at the murders of the Spilotro brothers when he had recently succeeded Aiuppa as boss. There's an interesting parallel in New York a few months after that when Vic Amuso (at that point having very recently been appointed official boss of the Lucchese family) is present for the murder of Buddy Luongo.

Yeah, multiple admin/capos were present at the murder, as the idea was to make it a ceremony to promote Spilotro to capo and to make his brother Mike. Obviously, there were alarm bells ringing in Mike's head as he gave his jewelry to his wife before leaving, but the sham making ceremony was still how they set it up. Frank Sr was also caught on the prison tapes saying that DiFronzo (underboss) had set it up.

Even if it was a sham making ceremony, everyone was already in the basement so it’s not like they were visible for the Spilotro’s to determine if they were in danger. There was no need to put the entire Outfit at risk like they supposedly did. I believe they were attacked as they were coming down the stairs. That being said, it worked out for them but could have easily have gone wrong.

That's true, but I believe Carlisi and some of the higher ranking guys were upstairs. Nick, Lou Marino, Eboli, and others were downstairs. I get what you're saying, but in all of the years that the mob has been carrying out hits, it is rare for one to get caught in the act. These guys were very cautious of surveillance.

[Patrickgold]

Has it been confirmed that Butch Petrocelli was an FBI informant. Jimmy I’s son made an interesting comment on Facebook the other day. I attached the screenshot to this message. Interesting he doesn’t say anything about Scarpelli who also turned FBI informant before he killed himself.

[PolackTony]

Transaction records for accounts receivable found on Joe Aiello when he was murdered in the 1920s. Investigators speculated that these reflected either bootlegging transaction or dues for the “Unione Sicilian” (doubtful, as we know that Aiello was never President of the IANU). Note Tommaso Bacino, who we’ve discussed before.

[B.]

Great list.

Tommaso Bacino was at least an associate.

The Canzoneris piqued my interest too. The one associated with the Chicago Family later had Palazzese heritage and the Bonanno ones lived in Southern Illinois like Pasquale Miceli from Burgio (Tommaso Bacino's hometown too) before he went to Chicago.

It remains unconfirmed but I suspect the Bonanno Tony Canzoneri's father was a member. Relatives said he was known as "Don Giorgio" which isn't necessarily a mafia thing but I don't think his son fell into Cosa Nostra randomly.

[PolackTony]

Great list.

Tommaso Bacino was at least an associate.

The Canzoneris piqued my interest too. The one associated with the Chicago Family later had Palazzese heritage and the Bonanno ones lived in Southern Illinois like Pasquale Miceli from Burgio (Tommaso Bacino's hometown too) before he went to Chicago.

It remains unconfirmed but I suspect the Bonanno Tony Canzoneri's father was a member. Relatives said he was known as "Don Giorgio" which isn't necessarily a mafia thing but I don't think his son fell into Cosa Nostra randomly.

The Canzoneris on the list here seem to have been brothers from an Arbereshe family from Mezzojuso/Campofelice di Fitalia. Elder brother Antonino “Tony” Canzoneri was murdered by two gunmen in his tavern in Lakeview in 1934.

[B.]

Ok, good to know. When I looked into the Bonanno Canzoneris I saw they had relatives from Prizzi but didn't see Mezzojuso though I didn't look that deep.

Other names that jump out on the list are Joe Franzone and "Cammarata". Wonder if that could be Emanuele since he spent time in Chicago. I'm sure his cousin Profaci mingled with the Bagherese guys like Aiello when he was in Chicago. He gets called neutral during the Castellammarese War but we know he secretly sympathized with the Castellammarese side that Aiello was part of.