Antiliar wrote: ↑Mon Aug 29, 2022 12:54 pm
I have no idea what Joe Fosco's assertion has to do with this. If you want to compare it to another borgata, the Colombos under Persico would probably be the closest analogy. Under Persico he tried to fill all the prime spots with his relatives and close supporters. This is what happened in New Orleans going back to Carollo. His relative married a relative of Carlos Marcello and their goal was to basically keep it (meaning gambling operations and real estate investments) within the family. Those who weren't in the loop were shut out (not because Marcello made a deal with the FBI or officially shut down a crew). Like I wrote, it doesn't have to be an official shelving, but a de facto one.
You indicated that you believed that when Marcello became boss that he "shelved" the older members. I brought up Fosco's claim that DiFronzo "deactivated" a crew because that is the closest (and only) example of this happening. What happened in the Colombos (and most other groups) where a boss demotes captains and elevates loyalists in their place is quite common (and within the scope of the boss' authority to do). Demotions and Shelvings are very different things. Even if Marcello's aim was keep gambling proceeds to a select group of members, the members that didn't make the cut are still members, even if they don't have a racket they are still part of the organization.
Antiliar wrote: ↑Mon Aug 29, 2022 12:54 pm
Some of this can be inferred from information that came from Pecora, and some from other sources. BTW, Nofio Pecora (born Onofrio Pecoraro) was involved with Nick Gentile and Charlie LaGaipa in drug trafficking in the mid-1930s, so his credentials go pretty far back. He also died in 1984, so that's one person not on the list of five people. Moreover, since Marcello just got the job in 1963/1964, the changes in numbers wouldn't have happened overnight.
I agree, but five years later we have the Colombo wiretap saying they are down to five guys and was specific enough to say Boss, Under, Consig and two soldiers. So do we have any idea how many members died between 1963 and 1968? It's very possible there was a significant drop off. As Pogo pointed out, the confirmed membership that we have were not old men. I'm inclined to believe that membership was probably very limited, by choice.
Antiliar wrote: ↑Mon Aug 29, 2022 12:54 pm
Can I come up with a comprehensive list of names of made people to prove there were others? No, I can't because there weren't any made informants beside Pecora, and Pecora refused to say all that much. The FBN had a list, but it's a suspected Mafia members list that includes associates. If I can't rattle off a bunch of 100% verified for a fact members does it mean they didn't exist? That's an argument from silence. All I can prove with the evidence that I have is that for certain there was at least one member unaccounted for (Pecora) and possibly a second one (Carollo). I can think of other *possible* members who were alive, but since the FBI didn't investigate them I am unable to prove their membership.
What were the total numbers before Marcello? Again, we don't know. I suspect that the New Orleans Family was never large, but it probably was larger before the 1891 lynching. It had members in the 1900s, 1910s, 1920s, 1930s, 1940s and 1950s, and I don't suspect that all the old-timers suddenly died when Leoluca Trombatore died in 1963 and only leaving Carlo Marcello with four members other than himself because to me that strains credulity (not to mention that the existence of Pecora proves it false).
So what list could I come up with for 1963? Hard to say. Would basically have to go through the suspect lists and see what's written on each one, then make an educated guess if they were made. Of course guesses could be way off. Who could have guessed that champion boxer Tony Canzoneri was a capodecina in the Bonanno Family? Who would have guessed that a Wyoming senator was a member of the Colorado brugad? The FBI had Rocco Infelise made in the 1960s when he wasn't made until 1983.
All good examples. We really need an insider for confirmation.
When it comes to this chart, I have no problem listing the suspected members that the FBI put out, but I would also include a note to what Colombo said in 1963. That way we're not saying for certain and leaving open possibilities since this is still a mystery.
Antiliar wrote: ↑Mon Aug 29, 2022 4:44 pm
Clement reported that LaGaipa was not a member in 1923. He could have been made a member in 1924, 1925, 1926, etc. It doesn't make sense to assume that because he wasn't a member in July 1923 that he was never made a member. I believe he eventually was, but unfortunately because of the dearth of evidence we're limited to making educated guesses. So while I can't say with 100% certainty that LaGaipa was a made member as of the mid-1930s, I think his associations and his roles strongly suggest that he was.
If you want to hold to a certain level of standards, I get it. There's nothing wrong with being consistent. I disagree because when it comes to history that context also plays a role in determining the standards that we should use. We are simply not going to have the same amount and types of evidence for things in 2022 as we would for things that happened in 2022 BCE, or 5000 BCE. Apply this to organized crime, the FBI did not begin to list made members and list them until Greg Scarpa and Joe Valachi. Some areas such as New Orleans and Tampa didn't have the type of informants they had in New York, Philadelphia and Chicago. Demanding statements from informants who don't exist just isn't reasonable. We have to accept that we have incomplete information and live with it.
Well, I wouldn't feel comfortable listing LaGaipa as a "confirmed" Gambino member, I'll state that. "Suspected Member" I have no issue with. He was an affiliate and the story of the Gambinos in the 20's and 30's can't be told without his name and what he was involved in.
Antiliar wrote: ↑Mon Aug 29, 2022 4:44 pm
So again, if CC wants to make a chart of only 5 guys in 1968, that's up to him. Based on the evidence I've seen I'll just know that it won't be comprehensive.
No, I was thinking more along the lines of Confirmed Members and Suspected Members underneath them. Even if the 20 or so suspected members the FBI put out weren't members, their backgrounds provide more of a view as to the foundations.
B. wrote: ↑Mon Aug 29, 2022 4:44 pm
Jimmy Campo is a good example in this. Older man from Siculiana who a non-member speculated could hold the rank of consigliere, but no confirmation from the FBI on him even being made. Campo was regarded as a powerful local figure in other reports. He seems to be at the top of the pack among the "suspecteds" but do you include him as a member on a chart? If we're going to include any unconfirmed members he should be one of them even if he's listed as "possible". However I don't think the FBI's blind speculation about all 33 suspected members deserves to be on the list.
I'm open to listings him as Suspected Consigliere but also open to listing the 33 FBI suspected members as such.
I guess the question is, do we know what 5 members, aside from Marcello, who Colombo was referencing? The two soldiers? Probably not. So do we have confirmed members? If so we list them as members, if not, the names go under suspected members. That allows us not to definitively identify someone as a member when we're guessing but also doesn't restrict the information out there on who was suspected. I think this is a good middle ground.