The "Associates" Thread

[Angelo Santino]

Tony, B. and I were discussing the broad range of Associates last night, not so much individuals but the types of associates. I reckon a chart of "types" would be an interesting one.

We'd have different categories- on-record and off-record, formal and informal.

At the very top would be calibers like Gus Alex, Maishe Rockman, Joe Watts. Guys who weren't formal members but had a say and were influential in the Organization. At the very bottom would be expendable grunts. In the middle would be proposed members and on-record non-proposed.

"Associates" is such a broad term for arguably the mafia's largest "class" of operatives despite not being formal members.

Here's a first rough draft-

On-Record
- Top Brass

- Proposed Members

- Non-made crew members/associates

Off-Record
- Individual business partners

- Relatives

- Guys who specialize

[Angelo Santino]

(Mostly for Tony in regards to last night's discussions)

I look back to the Cleveland charts I made- Chart A and Chart B-
viewtopic.php?f=32&t=3705&hilit=clevela ... t+licavoli

Chart A is black and white- Members at the top, associates at the bottom.
Chart B is more organic and shows who is connected to who.

When it comes to Chicago, we really need two charts. First being the formal made Mafia membership, 2nd being the "syndicate" which includes non-members that are not placed at the very bottom. And arguably, every family is like this. You cannot tell a full history of individual mafia families without Alex, Rockman, Lansky, McIntosh etc.

[TommyGambino]

Who’s the Serbian making shit loads with Louis Filippelli again? Seems like he has a bit of clout

[Angelo Santino]

Who’s the Serbian making shit loads with Louis Filippelli again? Seems like he has a bit of clout

Not sure. But you bring up an interesting point. I guess we should ask (even though there answer may not be out there) is he on-record with Filippelli or a personal associate?

John Alite, according to Michael DiLeonardo was a personal associate of Junior Gotti rather than a formal Gambino Family associate. So that's something that needs to be distinguished on this list of types/degrees of non-member mafia association.

[JohnnyS]

Mileta Miljanic. He's the leader of 'Group America' a Serbian mafia organization.

viewtopic.php?f=44&t=9140

[Wiseguy]

The closest thing Miljanic would be, within Christie's framework, would probably be off the record business partner. Though I'm not sure he's really tied to just one individual within the Gambino family. He seems like Jimmy Coonan or Bosco Radonjic, who led their own group, but did business with people with the Gambinos.

[Angelo Santino]

Well it's a working framework. New categories could be implemented.

Wiseguy also raises an interesting category where you have guys with their own groups independent of the Mafia who work with or in some cases for. This category would be in between the non-member Chicago "crews" who aren't made but had a clear succession of leaders who were answerable to the Outfit and were very much a part of it without being formally made and the opposite side of the spectrum where Merlino was friends with the Pagans MC which appeared to be more social than formal.

[Snakes]

My shot at it:

1st tier: Guys with a direct line to bosses or administration; top-level associates

2nd tier: Guys with direct line to capos or possess some lower-level supervisory position (e.g., Frank Schweihs in Chicago, not sure of a good example for East Coast families). This includes Italians who are on the cusp of being proposed for membership

3rd tier: Associates on record or part of a crew; may have a position of responsibility in loan-sharking, gambling, collection, labor racketeering, etc.

4th tier: Low-level associates; the guys at the very bottom. May not possess interest in advancing any further and are fine being agents or doing small-time work for the organization.

5th tier: All the rest; maybe not "true" associates but ones who do "business" with a family (as Wiseguy said). Crooked businessmen, government employees, cops, members of other criminal orgs, etc. No real authority over anyone in the organization because they aren't formally a part of the organization, but they are more important than lower-level associates and some (depending on the circumstances) may be as important as high-level associates or even made members.

[stubbs]

Good post Snakes!

Michael Persico seems to be in that top tier, unless he recently got his button. He’s clearly close the the Colombos power structure by blood, even if he never formally gets made.

Guys in that top tier can also likely be used as messengers to deliver orders between the bosses and other members.

[Angelo Santino]

My shot at it:

1st tier: Guys with a direct line to bosses or administration; top-level associates

2nd tier: Guys with direct line to capos or possess some lower-level supervisory position (e.g., Frank Schweihs in Chicago, not sure of a good example for East Coast families). This includes Italians who are on the cusp of being proposed for membership

3rd tier: Associates on record or part of a crew; may have a position of responsibility in loan-sharking, gambling, collection, labor racketeering, etc.

4th tier: Low-level associates; the guys at the very bottom. May not possess interest in advancing any further and are fine being agents or doing small-time work for the organization.

5th tier: All the rest; maybe not "true" associates but ones who do "business" with a family (as Wiseguy said). Crooked businessmen, government employees, cops, members of other criminal orgs, etc. No real authority over anyone in the organization because they aren't formally a part of the organization, but they are more important than lower-level associates and some (depending on the circumstances) may be as important as high-level associates or even made members.

Great. I like doing it by tiers, I think it's a great idea.

But let's split it down even further. If having a direct line to the boss equates to top tier, that would include a Gus Alex as well as a Sam DeStefano and both were very different calibers of associates. Or John Gotti's Joe Watts juxtaposed against Paul Castellano's Frank Purdue. So these tiers can be broken down further.

[Snakes]

My shot at it:

1st tier: Guys with a direct line to bosses or administration; top-level associates

2nd tier: Guys with direct line to capos or possess some lower-level supervisory position (e.g., Frank Schweihs in Chicago, not sure of a good example for East Coast families). This includes Italians who are on the cusp of being proposed for membership

3rd tier: Associates on record or part of a crew; may have a position of responsibility in loan-sharking, gambling, collection, labor racketeering, etc.

4th tier: Low-level associates; the guys at the very bottom. May not possess interest in advancing any further and are fine being agents or doing small-time work for the organization.

5th tier: All the rest; maybe not "true" associates but ones who do "business" with a family (as Wiseguy said). Crooked businessmen, government employees, cops, members of other criminal orgs, etc. No real authority over anyone in the organization because they aren't formally a part of the organization, but they are more important than lower-level associates and some (depending on the circumstances) may be as important as high-level associates or even made members.

Great. I like doing it by tiers, I think it's a great idea.

But let's split it down even further. If having a direct line to the boss equates to top tier, that would include a Gus Alex as well as a Sam DeStefano and both were very different calibers of associates. Or John Gotti's Joe Watts juxtaposed against Paul Castellano's Frank Purdue. So these tiers can be broken down further.

Am I crazy, or was there another post you had here that I was going to reply to? Wasn't sure if it was directed at me, anyway!

[Beatty]

My shot at it:

1st tier: Guys with a direct line to bosses or administration; top-level associates

2nd tier: Guys with direct line to capos or possess some lower-level supervisory position (e.g., Frank Schweihs in Chicago, not sure of a good example for East Coast families). This includes Italians who are on the cusp of being proposed for membership

3rd tier: Associates on record or part of a crew; may have a position of responsibility in loan-sharking, gambling, collection, labor racketeering, etc.

4th tier: Low-level associates; the guys at the very bottom. May not possess interest in advancing any further and are fine being agents or doing small-time work for the organization.

5th tier: All the rest; maybe not "true" associates but ones who do "business" with a family (as Wiseguy said). Crooked businessmen, government employees, cops, members of other criminal orgs, etc. No real authority over anyone in the organization because they aren't formally a part of the organization, but they are more important than lower-level associates and some (depending on the circumstances) may be as important as high-level associates or even made members.

1st- JR Rubeo

2nd- bent finger lou monacello

3rd- nick cimino

4th- the guy that owns the local pizza shop and takes bets on behalf of 3rd tier guy

5th- whoever the fuck introduced scarfo Jr to First Plus

[Costigan]

Albie Nunez was a Los Angeles associate who reported to, or at least had the ear of boss Pete Milano.

[Angelo Santino]

The top tier I would bestow only to those Associates who are able to interfere with Mafia Affairs- Rockman in Cleveland telling the members that his brother in law wanted Licavoli to succeed him as Cleveland Representative or Joe Watts advising John Gotti to make Michael DiLeonardo. They are not members but at a personal level, are likely told information which is a violation of mafia norms. they are able to approach members and discuss Mafia organizational matters.

Every member, from soldier to boss has people around him- relatives, business associates etc but very few members reach the heights of Alex, Rockman or Watts. Contrast that to Gene Borello mocking Franzese for using "caporegime," "no one uses that anymore, stop talking like a 1940's gangster." Even Pennisi had to say, "Yeah, we actually do use that, just not around an associate." Wonk wonk wonk.

Also, I made this point on the phone a few nights ago, but let's say one of us here meets Merlino's daughter at college and she invites us to her family dinner. I go there and meet everyone, including Merlino. He'll probably be very nice, friendly, involving me at the family function. He hears that when I graduate I want to go to FL and open a business. He might say, well graduate and come talk to me. So I move to FL and he helps me get set up in a business that maybe he owns an interest in. To the FBI I'd be labeled an associate. But let's say I know who Merlino is so I try and talk Mafia to him- "Hey, whose your Underboss?" "How many people have you whacked?" "Hey, I heard about this problem you're having in the news." I don't know what he'd say but he'd likely be thinking- "I don't know you like that and I ain't talking about this, and the fact that you're bringing it up to me let's me know what not to say around you." Mafia members are great at compartmentalizing things and they size people up and depending on how they rank you, there's only so high of a tier you can go. And just because I know Merlino- the boss whom I'm now in direct business with and the FBI would consider me an associate based on the theoretical situation doesn't automatically put me in the top tier to where I'm advising Merlino who to make a Mafia member or what route to take within mafia affairs.

I don't know Merlino but you know who does? Scott Burnstein, on the phone and in person. He's involved in some legitimate interests that stands to make Merlino alot of legal money. Is he an associate? To the FBI he probably would be, but he's not Merlino's secret Jewish Consigliere nor would Merlino ever tell Scott the time of day when it comes to Mafia.

[Stopflexing]

The Wags brothers in Philly