Visiting the West Side 1963

[JoelTurner]

There were a lot of mistakes made about Newark affiliation early on. Same is true for ranks, as Riela was sometimes identified as a capodecina but there's little confirming it. Maybe he was one of Bill B's "captains without a crew".

I think you’re right. If he was a captain, he couldn’t have had many guys with him.

We’ve discussed this in the Newark thread, but what about the guys who were around Vincenzo Troia? Could they have been Riela’s associates?

[JoelTurner]

Thanks for the info. So, there were like, what, 7-8 "original" crews before the crew splits? Terranova/Coppola/Lombardo crew, Greco crew, Pellegrino crew, Miranda crew (later split), Pisano/Angelina crew, Strollo/Eboli crew, NJ/Moretti crew (later split), Doto/Alo crew, Frasca crew (?), DelDuca crew.

This more or less correct? Any other pre-1960s crews left out? What were the pre-Frasca BK crews -- did Frasca inherit what had originally been, at least in part, Frankie Yale's crew? And the Coppola East Harlem crew was never split, right?

From the ones we can confirm:

Terranova/Coppola/Lombardo
Luciano/Greco
Genovese/Strollo/Eboli
Pellegrino
Miranda
Moretti/Catena/Boiardo
Doto/Alo

Alo also had ties to Pellegrino right?

Is it safe to say through process of elimination that Frank Costello, being an East Harlem guy, may have headed a faction that Pellegrino eventually heads? Just because its the closet group to have Uptown ties other than Coppola/Lombardo who seemed to support Vito Genovese more.

I don’t think so. The way I see it, Pellegrino had a gang in Westchester-Bronx which became his crew.

Costello, as far as I know, didn’t have any ties to that area. I don’t think Coppola supported Vito either.

[JoelTurner]

Frank Costello grew up in East Harlem, but in the 1920s he lived in Astoria, Queens. His main lieutenant was his brother Ed and others named in the rum running indictment from 1926 includes his people as well as Big Bill Dwyer's. Notice the name Frank Nitto. Could this be the future Chicago leader?

Brooklyn NY Daily Eagle 1926Jan26 Costello Dwyer indictments - Frank Nitto.jpg

Cool find!

I know about Big Bill Dwyer and Eddie Costello, but does anyone know anything about the other names on that list? Some of the Italians could have been Costello’s crew.

Some of those names had to be made up too. I doubt anyone’s named “Tony Casino” or “Augie Dallas”

[JoelTurner]

So Joe socks Lanza was a soldier?

He was a captain who ran the Fulton Fish Market

[Antiliar]

I've only seen Lanza listed as a soldier.

[JoelTurner]

I've only seen Lanza listed as a soldier.

1. Adequacy of Law Enforcement Powers for Labor Department Criminal Investigations by By United States. Congress. Senate. Committee on Labor and Human Resources: “Although Genovese Capo Joseph " Socks " Lanza died a number of years ago, until OIG's investigation, Lanza's associates and relatives controlled almost every important position in Local 359” (https://books.google.ca/books?id=t_8vT6 ... AF6BAgEEAM)

2. Organized Crime in America: Hearings Before the Committee on the Judiciary, United States Senate, Ninety-eighth Congress, First Session: “ This union, representing all the workers who handle fish, was originally dominated by Joseph “ Socks " Lanza, reported to be a " capo " in the Genovese crime family” (https://books.google.ca/books?id=12hHAw ... AXoECAkQAw)

3. Federal Government's Use of Trusteeships Under the RICO Statute: Hearings Before the Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations of the Committee on Governmental Affairs, United States Senate, One Hundred First Congress: “when Joseph " Socks " Lanza, a Capo in the Genovese crime Gunless otherwise indicated” (https://books.google.ca/books?id=ps00rX ... AF6BAgKEAM)

————————-

The crew that’s run by Allie Shades today; wouldn’t that have been Lanza’s crew during the 30s-60s?

[Antiliar]

I've only seen Lanza listed as a soldier.

1. Adequacy of Law Enforcement Powers for Labor Department Criminal Investigations by By United States. Congress. Senate. Committee on Labor and Human Resources: “Although Genovese Capo Joseph " Socks " Lanza died a number of years ago, until OIG's investigation, Lanza's associates and relatives controlled almost every important position in Local 359” (https://books.google.ca/books?id=t_8vT6 ... AF6BAgEEAM)

2. Organized Crime in America: Hearings Before the Committee on the Judiciary, United States Senate, Ninety-eighth Congress, First Session: “ This union, representing all the workers who handle fish, was originally dominated by Joseph “ Socks " Lanza, reported to be a " capo " in the Genovese crime family” (https://books.google.ca/books?id=12hHAw ... AXoECAkQAw)

3. Federal Government's Use of Trusteeships Under the RICO Statute: Hearings Before the Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations of the Committee on Governmental Affairs, United States Senate, One Hundred First Congress: “when Joseph " Socks " Lanza, a Capo in the Genovese crime Gunless otherwise indicated” (https://books.google.ca/books?id=ps00rX ... AF6BAgKEAM)

————————-

The crew that’s run by Allie Shades today; wouldn’t that have been Lanza’s crew during the 30s-60s?

Scarpa in 1962 said that either Socks or his brother was a capo: https://archive.org/details/GregoryScar ... s+lanza%22

I was going by the 1963 Valachi chart, which has him as a soldier in the Miranda regime. Maybe he was promoted later?

Konigsberg in 1965 said Joe Socks's brother Harry was the capo: https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.htm ... s_lanza%22

[JoelTurner]

I've only seen Lanza listed as a soldier.

1. Adequacy of Law Enforcement Powers for Labor Department Criminal Investigations by By United States. Congress. Senate. Committee on Labor and Human Resources: “Although Genovese Capo Joseph " Socks " Lanza died a number of years ago, until OIG's investigation, Lanza's associates and relatives controlled almost every important position in Local 359” (https://books.google.ca/books?id=t_8vT6 ... AF6BAgEEAM)

2. Organized Crime in America: Hearings Before the Committee on the Judiciary, United States Senate, Ninety-eighth Congress, First Session: “ This union, representing all the workers who handle fish, was originally dominated by Joseph “ Socks " Lanza, reported to be a " capo " in the Genovese crime family” (https://books.google.ca/books?id=12hHAw ... AXoECAkQAw)

3. Federal Government's Use of Trusteeships Under the RICO Statute: Hearings Before the Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations of the Committee on Governmental Affairs, United States Senate, One Hundred First Congress: “when Joseph " Socks " Lanza, a Capo in the Genovese crime Gunless otherwise indicated” (https://books.google.ca/books?id=ps00rX ... AF6BAgKEAM)

————————-

The crew that’s run by Allie Shades today; wouldn’t that have been Lanza’s crew during the 30s-60s?

Scarpa in 1962 said that either Socks or his brother was a capo: https://archive.org/details/GregoryScar ... s+lanza%22

I was going by the 1963 Valachi chart, which has him as a soldier in the Miranda regime. Maybe he was promoted later?

Konigsberg in 1965 said Joe Socks's brother Harry was the capo: https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.htm ... s_lanza%22

Joe Socks was in prison for a few stretches, his brother probably acted as Captain creating this idea.

Valachi’s chart does show him as a soldier under Miranda, but I don’t know about that one. I’ve never heard of that before nor can I see any obvious links between them.

Side note: Valachi’s chart also lists a Joe Lanza between Anthony Ferro and Frank Livorsi in the Mike Coppola crew. I’ve never heard of this other Joe Lanza, who was he?

[eboli]

I think Lanza suffered from Tony Pro's syndrome - he was very influential, and outsiders thought he was higher in the pecking order than he really was. During Operation Underworld, Lanza told Commander Charles Haffenden that he had little influence outside the Fulton Fish Market, unlike Luciano.

Later, Luciano instructed Lanza to get in touch with Adonis and Costello to get the ball rolling with the operation. In the 1920s and 1930s, Lanza was a close associate of Adonis, sometimes listed under his alias Joseph Renna.

In my opinion, he was under Adonis, then Miranda (after Doto's deportation), then Miranda's crew got broken up, and Lanza got into legal trouble in 1957. Then there were conflicting reports about his status in the family until he died in 1968. What's noteworthy is that the info he was a captain comes from the late 1950s and early 1960s, when the feds' track record was not that great. During the same time, they listed Eboli as acting boss, Tony Pro as a capo, and so on. In later years the feds listed Lanza as a soldier. Apparently, Valachi was not their only source for this info.

Konigsberg is not the most reliable source; he gave a lot of conflicting information because he was looking for a way to reduce his sentence. The investigators interviewing him thought he was making shit up. Konigsberg's story about Strollo's kidnapping and murder is a good example.

[JoelTurner]

In my opinion, he was under Adonis, then Miranda (after Doto's deportation), then Miranda's crew got broken up, and Lanza got into legal trouble in 1957. Then there were conflicting reports about his status in the family until he died in 1968. What's noteworthy is that the info he was a captain comes from the late 1950s and early 1960s, when the feds' track record was not that great. During the same time, they listed Eboli as acting boss, Tony Pro as a capo, and so on. In later years the feds listed Lanza as a soldier.

That makes sense. However, if Lanza wasn't a captain, whose crew would he have been in post-Miranda breakup? Whoever had Lanza in their crew would have had all the other Fulton Fish Market guys too.

[Antiliar]

This article gives some info on Lanza's successors:
https://apnews.com/article/835c00f0b76c ... df658a91c6

[eboli]

In my opinion, he was under Adonis, then Miranda (after Doto's deportation), then Miranda's crew got broken up, and Lanza got into legal trouble in 1957. Then there were conflicting reports about his status in the family until he died in 1968. What's noteworthy is that the info he was a captain comes from the late 1950s and early 1960s, when the feds' track record was not that great. During the same time, they listed Eboli as acting boss, Tony Pro as a capo, and so on. In later years the feds listed Lanza as a soldier.

That makes sense. However, if Lanza wasn't a captain, whose crew would he have been in post-Miranda breakup? Whoever had Lanza in their crew would have had all the other Fulton Fish Market guys too.

Tough to say. Miranda's crew got chopped up in five or six different ways. By the late 1980s, Malangone and Gangi were co-controllers of the Fulton Fish Market, but neither of those crews was a direct offshoot of the former Miranda crew. If Lanza was part of either crew, which I doubt, it means he was under Gus Frasca or Pellegrino/Mogavero in the 1960s.

I find it interesting that later Genovese controlled the market through two captains. While soldier Carmine Romano was directly in charge of the operations in the early 1980s, he was mistakenly IDd as a captain. Probably the same can be said about Lanza earlier.

[JoelTurner]

Tough to say. Miranda's crew got chopped up in five or six different ways.

So this would be the split:

1. Frank Tieri
2. Frank Celano
3. Generoso Del Duca
4. Anthony Carillo
5. Peter DeFeo
6. Pietro Dolce

That would mean Lanza and the Fulton Fish Market guys were members of one of these crews.

Did the crews in Springfield and Worcester also come from Miranda? His crew in the 50s must have been the biggest ever.

[JoelTurner]

This document https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.ht ... lPageId=70 lists Angelo Fiore and Girolamo Santuccio as captains with a maybe for Santuccio.

I don't think Santuccio was a captain.

Who was Angelo Fiore, I haven't heard of him?

[eboli]

Tough to say. Miranda's crew got chopped up in five or six different ways.

So this would be the split:

1. Frank Tieri
2. Frank Celano
3. Generoso Del Duca
4. Anthony Carillo
5. Peter DeFeo
6. Pietro Dolce

That would mean Lanza and the Fulton Fish Market guys were members of one of these crews.

Did the crews in Springfield and Worcester also come from Miranda? His crew in the 50s must have been the biggest ever.

Toddo Del Ducca
Tony Carillo
Frank Celano
Sal Celambrino
Pete Defeo

These are the ones that we traced to the initial split in 1957. It's unknown if members of Miranda's regime got transferred further, but it's possible. It could've been an even bigger split for all we know. When Del Ducca died in 1960, Tieri inherited his operations, but not in their entirety. Some rackets went to Saro Mogavero, who at the time was either a captain of his own crew or Pellegrino's acting captain.

If we assume the control of the Fulton Fish Market stayed with the head of the same crew Lanza was in at the time of his death, a plausible timeline goes as follows:

Adonis (1930s-1950s) -> Miranda (1950s) -> Del Ducca (late 1950s-early 1960s) -> Pellegrino/Mogavero (early 1960s-early 1970s)-> Lapi (1970s) ->Gaccione (1980s) -> Gangi (late 1980s-1990s)

- - - -

This document https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.ht ... lPageId=70 lists Angelo Fiore and Girolamo Santuccio as captains with a maybe for Santuccio.

I don't think Santuccio was a captain.

Who was Angelo Fiore, I haven't heard of him?

Neither of them were capos. Fiore was a semi-retired member. Santuccio was a soldier of the Greenwich Village Crew. You can see his mug in this chart I did some time back: viewtopic.php?f=32&t=7147&hilit=greenwich+village