General Chicago Outfit Info Dumping Ground

[Antiliar]

I believe it was magnafichi who said difronzo stopped making guys and deactivated the elm wood park crew in mid 90’s. If an actual member is not a good source for the reason for the outfits decline I don’t know what else to say.

I don't dispute that. It's what he told me also. However, there's evidence that Mike Sarno did make guys when he was the boss. We also don't know if Johnny Apes, Tornabene, Marcello or DeLaurentis made guys, but I see no reason why any of them couldn't if they wanted to.

Regarding EP, with a vacuum from DiFronzo's old crew the other capos put their own people in there. In 2017 the Tribune reported that Steve Mandell said that Albie Vena ran EP, and more recently my source told me more recently that the LoBue brothers ran it, either for Cicero or directly under DeLaurentis.

[B.]

Most people agree the mafia has declined, but one of the issues is there isn't really concensus over how sharply it's declined. Available evidence has made me very consvervative about the size and scope of the mafia at its peak, so even though I see an obvious decline I don't always agree with the steepness.

- For example, Ray DeCarlo was recorded saying the Chicago Family had around 50 members in the 1960s and were highly exclusive about who they brought in. Some sources have speculated the Family had 150+ members and I don't know what's true, but I'm more likely to lean toward a smaller size based on common trends in Families outside of the East Coast and particularly in the Midwest.

- When talking about the famed 28 confirmed members in the 2000s, I agree the Family's size was likely diminished (even if we include Frank Calabrese's alleged "sleepers" who weren't on LE lists) but a 50 member org that became a 30 member org is going to be a different conversation than a 150 member org that declined to 30 members.

If we're going to pretend this is a scientific process where we can actually measure the decline of a Cosa Nostra organization, we have to have some level of concensus as to what the organization consisted of at its peak. We've learned a lot about that time period, but as CC's chart projects show, we're still missing many important details and our view isn't comprehensive, nor is LE's (even when an admin member cooperates we're still missing details). We can all agree there's been a decline, but it's intellectually dishonest to pretend the decline can be accurately measured/quantified or that the patterns are identical in every organization.

It's also made more difficult by the fact that FBI data has never been comprehensive and they have always relied on member sources and wiretaps to accurately assess a given organization. Some people take the approach that from the 1980s onward the FBI has not only had a comprehensive view into each of these organizations but that this information has all been made publicly available -- from this POV, we know everthing there is to know and all that's left to do is count off the confirmed members who have died off until we can label an org "defunct" or "nonviable". Any alternative to this POV is framed as cheerleading, wishful thinking, or fantasy.

I've got no issue with someone pointing out the decline. I agree with it and general evidence supports it. Where things get mixed up is when people try to measure the decline or use this downward trend to gatekeep and repress any discussion that strays from that narrative.

[Newyorkempire]

Most people agree the mafia has declined, but one of the issues is there isn't really concensus over how sharply it's declined. Available evidence has made me very consvervative about the size and scope of the mafia at its peak, so even though I see an obvious decline I don't always agree with the steepness.

- For example, Ray DeCarlo was recorded saying the Chicago Family had around 50 members in the 1960s and were highly exclusive about who they brought in. Some sources have speculated the Family had 150+ members and I don't know what's true, but I'm more likely to lean toward a smaller size based on common trends in Families outside of the East Coast and particularly in the Midwest.

- When talking about the famed 28 confirmed members in the 2000s, I agree the Family's size was likely diminished (even if we include Frank Calabrese's alleged "sleepers" who weren't on LE lists) but a 50 member org that became a 30 member org is going to be a different conversation than a 150 member org that declined to 30 members.

If we're going to pretend this is a scientific process where we can actually measure the decline of a Cosa Nostra organization, we have to have some level of concensus as to what the organization consisted of at its peak. We've learned a lot about that time period, but as CC's chart projects show, we're still missing many important details and our view isn't comprehensive, nor is LE's (even when an admin member cooperates we're still missing details). We can all agree there's been a decline, but it's intellectually dishonest to pretend the decline can be accurately measured/quantified or that the patterns are identical in every organization.

It's also made more difficult by the fact that FBI data has never been comprehensive and they have always relied on member sources and wiretaps to accurately assess a given organization. Some people take the approach that from the 1980s onward the FBI has not only had a comprehensive view into each of these organizations but that this information has all been made publicly available -- from this POV, we know everthing there is to know and all that's left to do is count off the confirmed members who have died off until we can label an org "defunct" or "nonviable". Any alternative to this POV is framed as cheerleading, wishful thinking, or fantasy.

I've got no issue with someone pointing out the decline. I agree with it and general evidence supports it. Where things get mixed up is when people try to measure the decline or use this downward trend to gatekeep and repress any discussion that strays from that narrative.

"I've got no issue with someone pointing out the decline. I agree with it and general evidence supports it. Where things get mixed up is when people try to measure the decline or use this downward trend to gatekeep and repress any discussion that strays from that narrative."

This should be the general consensus and only this.

[Pete]

I believe it was magnafichi who said difronzo stopped making guys and deactivated the elm wood park crew in mid 90’s. If an actual member is not a good source for the reason for the outfits decline I don’t know what else to say.

I don't dispute that. It's what he told me also. However, there's evidence that Mike Sarno did make guys when he was the boss. We also don't know if Johnny Apes, Tornabene, Marcello or DeLaurentis made guys, but I see no reason why any of them couldn't if they wanted to.

Regarding EP, with a vacuum from DiFronzo's old crew the other capos put their own people in there. In 2017 the Tribune reported that Steve Mandell said that Albie Vena ran EP, and more recently my source told me more recently that the LoBue brothers ran it, either for Cicero or directly under DeLaurentis.

Agreed. Someone was discussing the decline from the 90’s forward which I think had to do with difronzo but as you stated those other bosses could have made guys and probably did. There’s been talk that sarno and even marcello made some guys which is entirely possible. Apes could have too.
Pure speculation but where difronzo wanted to stop things marcello was very clear on tape saying he was gonna get things straightened out and get things back to how they should be. He also talked to his brother about younger guys etc he had plans. That suggests he was most likely at least planning to bring in guys if he did or not who knows. The solly d thing I think depends on what time frame your talking. I’ve been sayinf for at least 2 years the guy is not very active If he is at all.

[B.]

The recent Chicago rumors are interesting because guys like Antiliar and Tony are conservative about new information and do their due diligence. When these rumors surfaced, they were able to find evidence of social and business connections linking some of these names to Chicago outfit circles.

Of course they couldn't confirm these guys are made or that certain people have been promoted, and you're not going to see them make a chart out of it, but they approached the rumors like any good researcher would and found interesting connections. And that's all it is: interesting.

[Pete]

Most people agree the mafia has declined, but one of the issues is there isn't really concensus over how sharply it's declined. Available evidence has made me very consvervative about the size and scope of the mafia at its peak, so even though I see an obvious decline I don't always agree with the steepness.

- For example, Ray DeCarlo was recorded saying the Chicago Family had around 50 members in the 1960s and were highly exclusive about who they brought in. Some sources have speculated the Family had 150+ members and I don't know what's true, but I'm more likely to lean toward a smaller size based on common trends in Families outside of the East Coast and particularly in the Midwest.

- When talking about the famed 28 confirmed members in the 2000s, I agree the Family's size was likely diminished (even if we include Frank Calabrese's alleged "sleepers" who weren't on LE lists) but a 50 member org that became a 30 member org is going to be a different conversation than a 150 member org that declined to 30 members.

If we're going to pretend this is a scientific process where we can actually measure the decline of a Cosa Nostra organization, we have to have some level of concensus as to what the organization consisted of at its peak. We've learned a lot about that time period, but as CC's chart projects show, we're still missing many important details and our view isn't comprehensive, nor is LE's (even when an admin member cooperates we're still missing details). We can all agree there's been a decline, but it's intellectually dishonest to pretend the decline can be accurately measured/quantified or that the patterns are identical in every organization.

It's also made more difficult by the fact that FBI data has never been comprehensive and they have always relied on member sources and wiretaps to accurately assess a given organization. Some people take the approach that from the 1980s onward the FBI has not only had a comprehensive view into each of these organizations but that this information has all been made publicly available -- from this POV, we know everthing there is to know and all that's left to do is count off the confirmed members who have died off until we can label an org "defunct" or "nonviable". Any alternative to this POV is framed as cheerleading, wishful thinking, or fantasy.

I've got no issue with someone pointing out the decline. I agree with it and general evidence supports it. Where things get mixed up is when people try to measure the decline or use this downward trend to gatekeep and repress any discussion that strays from that narrative.

Where did you find this info about frank calabrese having sleeper made guys? As a soldier that seems hard to figure out as he didn’t have the power to make guys. Carlisi definitely had sleepers tornabene being one of them I never heard that about frank tho

[Pete]

The recent Chicago rumors are interesting because guys like Antiliar and Tony are conservative about new information and do their due diligence. When these rumors surfaced, they were able to find evidence of social and business connections linking some of these names to Chicago outfit circles.

Of course they couldn't confirm these guys are made or that certain people have been promoted, and you're not going to see them make a chart out of it, but they approached the rumors like any good researcher would and found interesting connections. And that's all it is: interesting.

Antillar research is top notch you can take that to the bank. The main point like you said is he is using his best judgement when he has to give an opinion on something not known as fact. His sources and research are as solid as gets though we agree in most stuff

[B.]

Frank Calabrese told his son on the prison tapes how the Family had "sleepers" who weren't on the FBI's radar. I didn't mean they were under Calabrese, only that he referred to them.

Whether or not the people he was thinking of were truly off the radar is anyone's guess, but that was his impression at the time.

[Pete]

Yes. "Hypothetical" sense, a.k.a. your supposition. Which is the same thing you try and accuse others of. Quicksand

I'll ask you what I'll ask of everything else in this thread. Show me anything even close the 28 member figure the FBI gave in 2007. A specific count (not a non-rounded estimate) that we rarely see. There's nothing that holds even close to that much weight.

Read what Antillar wrote. Hes way more respected than me but yet you wont respect his logic. Point is you dont know and neither does the FBI and youre relying on something from 15 years ago that could have been wrong then, that you'll then pair with "trends". You know a good way to find out? Get off your ass in Utah, fly to Chicago and stick your head in Venas office and ask. Outside an honest answer from him and your telling us you talked with him directly Im not believing any exact number. The truth is somewhere in between knowing and not knowing and youre on the not knowing part of that spectrum. And for me, the fact you live in Utah gives you even less credibility regardless of how many articles youve read but thats just my supposition and geographical bias.

if wiseguy poked his head in venas office aka Richards he would not get a warm welcome but I would love to see it. Vena is not the type to make conversation and when you go in the bar and he’s there everyone looks at you like your a fed

[Antiliar]

I think Nick Calabrese could have been considered a sleeper. Frank Sr. obviously didn't make his brother, but Nick was placed under him in his crew. Nobody had any idea who Nick was until he was arrested and confessed.

[Pete]

Frank Calabrese told his son on the prison tapes how the Family had "sleepers" who weren't on the FBI's radar. I didn't mean they were under Calabrese, only that he referred to them.

Whether or not the people he was thinking of were truly off the radar is anyone's guess, but that was his impression at the time.

Oh got you yes entirely correct on this. Some of those sleepers have been outed in recent years but the outfit was known for having sleepers and they didn’t have crews know each other for the most part further insulating things

[Newyorkempire]

Yes. "Hypothetical" sense, a.k.a. your supposition. Which is the same thing you try and accuse others of. Quicksand

I'll ask you what I'll ask of everything else in this thread. Show me anything even close the 28 member figure the FBI gave in 2007. A specific count (not a non-rounded estimate) that we rarely see. There's nothing that holds even close to that much weight.

Read what Antillar wrote. Hes way more respected than me but yet you wont respect his logic. Point is you dont know and neither does the FBI and youre relying on something from 15 years ago that could have been wrong then, that you'll then pair with "trends". You know a good way to find out? Get off your ass in Utah, fly to Chicago and stick your head in Venas office and ask. Outside an honest answer from him and your telling us you talked with him directly Im not believing any exact number. The truth is somewhere in between knowing and not knowing and youre on the not knowing part of that spectrum. And for me, the fact you live in Utah gives you even less credibility regardless of how many articles youve read but thats just my supposition and geographical bias.

if wiseguy poked his head in venas office aka Richards he would not get a warm welcome but I would love to see it. Vena is not the type to make conversation and when you go in the bar and he’s there everyone looks at you like your a fed

I say we start a gofundme page for the flight and hotel

[Pete]

Yes. "Hypothetical" sense, a.k.a. your supposition. Which is the same thing you try and accuse others of. Quicksand

I'll ask you what I'll ask of everything else in this thread. Show me anything even close the 28 member figure the FBI gave in 2007. A specific count (not a non-rounded estimate) that we rarely see. There's nothing that holds even close to that much weight.

Read what Antillar wrote. Hes way more respected than me but yet you wont respect his logic. Point is you dont know and neither does the FBI and youre relying on something from 15 years ago that could have been wrong then, that you'll then pair with "trends". You know a good way to find out? Get off your ass in Utah, fly to Chicago and stick your head in Venas office and ask. Outside an honest answer from him and your telling us you talked with him directly Im not believing any exact number. The truth is somewhere in between knowing and not knowing and youre on the not knowing part of that spectrum. And for me, the fact you live in Utah gives you even less credibility regardless of how many articles youve read but thats just my supposition and geographical bias.

if wiseguy poked his head in venas office aka Richards he would not get a warm welcome but I would love to see it. Vena is not the type to make conversation and when you go in the bar and he’s there everyone looks at you like your a fed

I say we start a gofundme page for the flight and hotel

I’ll throw a nickel in right now!

[Newyorkempire]

Yes. "Hypothetical" sense, a.k.a. your supposition. Which is the same thing you try and accuse others of. Quicksand

I'll ask you what I'll ask of everything else in this thread. Show me anything even close the 28 member figure the FBI gave in 2007. A specific count (not a non-rounded estimate) that we rarely see. There's nothing that holds even close to that much weight.

Read what Antillar wrote. Hes way more respected than me but yet you wont respect his logic. Point is you dont know and neither does the FBI and youre relying on something from 15 years ago that could have been wrong then, that you'll then pair with "trends". You know a good way to find out? Get off your ass in Utah, fly to Chicago and stick your head in Venas office and ask. Outside an honest answer from him and your telling us you talked with him directly Im not believing any exact number. The truth is somewhere in between knowing and not knowing and youre on the not knowing part of that spectrum. And for me, the fact you live in Utah gives you even less credibility regardless of how many articles youve read but thats just my supposition and geographical bias.

if wiseguy poked his head in venas office aka Richards he would not get a warm welcome but I would love to see it. Vena is not the type to make conversation and when you go in the bar and he’s there everyone looks at you like your a fed

I say we start a gofundme page for the flight and hotel

I’ll throw a nickel in right now!

Lol bet.....Id actually pay for the entire trip. But hed be right down in front of the FBI offices as soon as he landed with a bottle of lotion and some tissues and waste the trip

[B.]

We're finding out politicians like D'Arco and I believe Marzullo were made, so there are a lot of blindspots when it comes to their recruitment practices. Like Pete said, too, there was a lot of secrecy about members even among inducted members and between different crews.

It's not that there were hordes of sleepers running around behind the scenes, but when we start splitting hairs about ~30 members vs. ~40, every unknown name makes a big difference.