General Chicago Outfit Info Dumping Ground

[Snakes]

I brought him up because there was a Colombo member who went "missing" in 1969 and he still showed up on LE members lists up to the 1980s.


Pogo

That's interesting. I'm not really sure what protocol would be in this instance.

[Wiseguy]

Well, the intel on Chicago has never been the greatest. The 1985 list didn't have ten of the guys from the 1983 making ceremony including two capos and another who helped conduct it. Fast forward 15 years later and they have at least half a dozen guys listed as made whose status was, if not flat out wrong, highly in question. So, they have a history of undercounting and misidentifying. This doesn't take anything away from the FBI agents -- they did the best with what they had and it's obvious they were struggling to find quality informants and intelligence on who was made, which probably lasts to this day.

Now, besides court testimony, we haven't seen much of what Nick C knows and probably won't until he passes and we can get some additional files, but it's possible that Nick was able to correct or clarify what the FBI had, but until we see the results, we can only guess at what he revealed. Even then, he was in prison for the last half-dozen years before cooperating, so there is still probably a limit as to what he knew of an Outfit at the turn of the century.

I get that. But after the intelligence building in the 1980's, and even in the 1990's, I would think the feds would have a pretty good picture of things in Chicago by the 2000's. Not just with Nick Calabrese but also people like those two unnamed high-level CIs they supposedly had or have. Like anywhere else, I don't see a lot of newly-made guys flying under the radar in 2022.

[Newyorkempire]

Well, the intel on Chicago has never been the greatest. The 1985 list didn't have ten of the guys from the 1983 making ceremony including two capos and another who helped conduct it. Fast forward 15 years later and they have at least half a dozen guys listed as made whose status was, if not flat out wrong, highly in question. So, they have a history of undercounting and misidentifying. This doesn't take anything away from the FBI agents -- they did the best with what they had and it's obvious they were struggling to find quality informants and intelligence on who was made, which probably lasts to this day.

Now, besides court testimony, we haven't seen much of what Nick C knows and probably won't until he passes and we can get some additional files, but it's possible that Nick was able to correct or clarify what the FBI had, but until we see the results, we can only guess at what he revealed. Even then, he was in prison for the last half-dozen years before cooperating, so there is still probably a limit as to what he knew of an Outfit at the turn of the century.

I get that. But after the intelligence building in the 1980's, and even in the 1990's, I would think the feds would have a pretty good picture of things in Chicago by the 2000's. Not just with Nick Calabrese but also people like those two unnamed high-level CIs they supposedly had or have. Like anywhere else, I don't see a lot of newly-made guys flying under the radar in 2022.

Just don't understand how you can say this when it just happened in the most recent Genovese bust. No one even knew these guys existed according to the comments in the section.

[Johnny1and1]

Well, the intel on Chicago has never been the greatest. The 1985 list didn't have ten of the guys from the 1983 making ceremony including two capos and another who helped conduct it. Fast forward 15 years later and they have at least half a dozen guys listed as made whose status was, if not flat out wrong, highly in question. So, they have a history of undercounting and misidentifying. This doesn't take anything away from the FBI agents -- they did the best with what they had and it's obvious they were struggling to find quality informants and intelligence on who was made, which probably lasts to this day.

Now, besides court testimony, we haven't seen much of what Nick C knows and probably won't until he passes and we can get some additional files, but it's possible that Nick was able to correct or clarify what the FBI had, but until we see the results, we can only guess at what he revealed. Even then, he was in prison for the last half-dozen years before cooperating, so there is still probably a limit as to what he knew of an Outfit at the turn of the century.

I get that. But after the intelligence building in the 1980's, and even in the 1990's, I would think the feds would have a pretty good picture of things in Chicago by the 2000's. Not just with Nick Calabrese but also people like those two unnamed high-level CIs they supposedly had or have. Like anywhere else, I don't see a lot of newly-made guys flying under the radar in 2022.

Just don't understand how you can say this when it just happened in the most recent Genovese bust. No one even knew these guys existed according to the comments in the section.

Agreed. We get a lot of opinion, which is to be expected, but some of it defies common sense and logic.

[Pogo The Clown]

Piss off Vicari.


Pogo

[Johnny1and1]

Piss off Vicari.


Pogo

Useful and informative post. Thanks.

[Newyorkempire]

Piss off Vicari.


Pogo

Useful and informative post. Thanks.

You hit a nerve with Pogo. He is pattering his fists and biting his lip as we type. Lol. Priceless

Love how he thinks he knows who everyone is. Billions of people in the world yet he thinks we are all reincarnated posters from his tormented past. Cant make this shit up

[Pogo The Clown]

Why am I not surprised that Rooster is sticking up for one of Vicari's dummy accounts and in the process derail what was a good discussion.


Pogo

[Wiseguy]

Just don't understand how you can say this when it just happened in the most recent Genovese bust. No one even knew these guys existed according to the comments in the section.

First, New York and Chicago are apples and vacuums. Second, even in New York, the number of unidentified members is going to be a small minority within the overall membership of a family today. And third, there's a difference between unidentified to us and unidentified to law enforcement. A guy like Nicholas Calisi (who actually had been mentioned before apparently) is the exception, not the rule.

[Johnny1and1]

Piss off Vicari.


Pogo

Useful and informative post. Thanks.

You hit a nerve with Pogo. He is pattering his fists and biting his lip as we type. Lol. Priceless

Love how he thinks he knows who everyone is. Billions of people in the world yet he thinks we are all reincarnated posters from his tormented past. Cant make this shit up

What it looks like to me is some are researchers and academics, but not a lot of real life experiences. So if it can't be proven by a newspaper article, or court filing, it ain't true. Others, not myself specifically, but I'd include myself, have some real world experience. I don't discount either type of poster, or either type of post. I treat them all equally, and eventually make a decision about whether those posters, and their posts are credible. Just as I'd expect others to do with my posts. But the academics do not like it one bit if you should happen to disagree. What you say is speculation, but what they speculate is not speculation. It's an odd position. And frankly, almost everything on here is speculation, by definition, due to the nature of the topic we discuss. That includes news media reports, federal government filings, and what I claim to know. None of it can be proven. The Feds only need enough to convict, after that, accuracy is not germane.

I don't know Pogo, but he has been mentioned favorably on a Discord I'm part of with the same general topic as here. But he and a couple of others seem to be deeply offended by some of my posts. I don't pretend to understand it, but until I get kicked off of here, I guess I don't care.

FWIW, I did used to have an account on here, and lost that login information. I had tried to create a new account, and never was able to until recently. I can't imagine my old account had more than 5 posts, if any. That would have been quite some time ago. You'll rarely see my post unless it has a Midwestern connection, or South Florida connection, the two places I'm most familiar with, and most familiar with specially as it regards the topic of these forums. South Florida leads to some East Coast things, but that is derived out of SoFla personal experiences. We had a Luchesse connection in my area at one time, but my research only got so far. The saga of Amuso meeting one of the McNeese brothers in Atlanta. Scotter Clark. Joey Gross, aka Joey Russo. When I got a new account on here, the purpose was to do some additional research on this specific topic, but there isn't much to be found here on that. To be fair, there isn't much to be found on this topic anywhere. I run into paywalls, etc.

[Newyorkempire]

Why am I not surprised that Rooster is sticking up for one of Vicari's dummy accounts and in the process derail what was a good discussion.


Pogo

Aarrrrrrghhhhh....Pogo is heating up. From his mommys basement he preaches Gospel like no other. Clenching his fists, face grimacing. Dont give up the fight Pogo. You are a blogging icon

[Wiseguy]

What it looks like to me is some are researchers and academics, but not a lot of real life experiences. So if it can't be proven by a newspaper article, or court filing, it ain't true. Others, not myself specifically, but I'd include myself, have some real world experience. I don't discount either type of poster, or either type of post. I treat them all equally, and eventually make a decision about whether those posters, and their posts are credible. Just as I'd expect others to do with my posts. But the academics do not like it one bit if you should happen to disagree. What you say is speculation, but what they speculate is not speculation. It's an odd position. And frankly, almost everything on here is speculation, by definition, due to the nature of the topic we discuss. That includes news media reports, federal government filings, and what I claim to know. None of it can be proven. The Feds only need enough to convict, after that, accuracy is not germane.

I don't know Pogo, but he has been mentioned favorably on a Discord I'm part of with the same general topic as here. But he and a couple of others seem to be deeply offended by some of my posts. I don't pretend to understand it, but until I get kicked off of here, I guess I don't care.

FWIW, I did used to have an account on here, and lost that login information. I had tried to create a new account, and never was able to until recently. I can't imagine my old account had more than 5 posts, if any. That would have been quite some time ago. You'll rarely see my post unless it has a Midwestern connection, or South Florida connection, the two places I'm most familiar with, and most familiar with specially as it regards the topic of these forums. South Florida leads to some East Coast things, but that is derived out of SoFla personal experiences. We had a Luchesse connection in my area at one time, but my research only got so far. The saga of Amuso meeting one of the McNeese brothers in Atlanta. Scotter Clark. Joey Gross, aka Joey Russo. When I got a new account on here, the purpose was to do some additional research on this specific topic, but there isn't much to be found here on that. To be fair, there isn't much to be found on this topic anywhere. I run into paywalls, etc.

I wish I had dollar every time this researcher vs. real life thing came up on the forums. I could probably retire.

[Coloboy]

The truth usually lies in the middle. This is the closest we have had in a while to the age old argument of the “outfit is dead “ vs “the outfit is a massively powerful and secretive organization still today”. This seems to pop up every so often on these and other forums.

we can say with confidence that the outfit is a shell of what it once was. I don’t think there’s anyone arguing with that. We can also say that both by design and by natural attrition the number of made members in the group is small. Anywhere between 20 to 40 is a good educated guess. Although by some estimates at the absolute peak of the thing there may have been fewer than 150 total made initiated members or less.

we also absolutely do not know everything that is happening with the outfit. It is always “dead “until we find out some thing we didn’t already know. Off the top of my head in the last decade….

Panozzo and crew
Mandell
Del Guidice
Paloain
Louis Rainone
Carparelli

I’m sure others can add more. Point is, we didn’t know about any of these guys and their underlings/associates until they got busted, and each time one of these happens we are able to connect some more dots about who knows who and how they work together.

If you think nobody has been made since the mid-1990s I think you’re nuts. There’s been enough action surrounding it to discredit that. The efforts by other contributors on here to identify those who are 100% made and confirmed by multiple sources is admirable. But remember, before family secrets no one had even heard of Al Tornabene, and we later find out he was most likely running the whole outfit at one stage or another.

In my opinion, what we are looking at is a small, tight knit network of semi legitimate businessman who still make money using illegal means in addition to the legal ones. Some elements are more “street” than others I’m sure. The thing is definitely still there, in a much reduced and much more niche capacity.

[Wiseguy]

The truth usually lies in the middle. This is the closest we have had in a while to the age old argument of the “outfit is dead “ vs “the outfit is a massively powerful and secretive organization still today”. This seems to pop up every so often on these and other forums.

we can say with confidence that the outfit is a shell of what it once was. I don’t think there’s anyone arguing with that. We can also say that both by design and by natural attrition the number of made members in the group is small. Anywhere between 20 to 40 is a good educated guess. Although by some estimates at the absolute peak of the thing there may have been fewer than 150 total made initiated members or less.

we also absolutely do not know everything that is happening with the outfit. It is always “dead “until we find out some thing we didn’t already know. Off the top of my head in the last decade….

Panozzo and crew
Mandell
Del Guidice
Paloain
Louis Rainone
Carparelli

I’m sure others can add more. Point is, we didn’t know about any of these guys and their underlings/associates until they got busted, and each time one of these happens we are able to connect some more dots about who knows who and how they work together.

If you think nobody has been made since the mid-1990s I think you’re nuts. There’s been enough action surrounding it to discredit that. The efforts by other contributors on here to identify those who are 100% made and confirmed by multiple sources is admirable. But remember, before family secrets no one had even heard of Al Tornabene, and we later find out he was most likely running the whole outfit at one stage or another.

In my opinion, what we are looking at is a small, tight knit network of semi legitimate businessman who still make money using illegal means in addition to the legal ones. Some elements are more “street” than others I’m sure. The thing is definitely still there, in a much reduced and much more niche capacity.

Anyone who thinks there's 30 or 40 members of the Outfit today needs their head examined. Even 20 is a stretch. As far as people being made post-1990's, we have no definitive evidence of it. And, even if we assume there has been, it's doubtful it's been in significant numbers. Especially in terms of enough to offset the members who have died over that time period.

I suspect most of the members or even suspected members listed are either inactive or at least semi-retired. You certainly don't hear much from most of them nowadays. When it comes to cases like DelGiudice, Paloian, or Carparelli, for example, the connections seem somewhat tentative frankly more signs of the decline than anything. There's a reason Sallett said the Outfit is running on fumes.

[Newyorkempire]

The truth usually lies in the middle. This is the closest we have had in a while to the age old argument of the “outfit is dead “ vs “the outfit is a massively powerful and secretive organization still today”. This seems to pop up every so often on these and other forums.

we can say with confidence that the outfit is a shell of what it once was. I don’t think there’s anyone arguing with that. We can also say that both by design and by natural attrition the number of made members in the group is small. Anywhere between 20 to 40 is a good educated guess. Although by some estimates at the absolute peak of the thing there may have been fewer than 150 total made initiated members or less.

we also absolutely do not know everything that is happening with the outfit. It is always “dead “until we find out some thing we didn’t already know. Off the top of my head in the last decade….

Panozzo and crew
Mandell
Del Guidice
Paloain
Louis Rainone
Carparelli

I’m sure others can add more. Point is, we didn’t know about any of these guys and their underlings/associates until they got busted, and each time one of these happens we are able to connect some more dots about who knows who and how they work together.

If you think nobody has been made since the mid-1990s I think you’re nuts. There’s been enough action surrounding it to discredit that. The efforts by other contributors on here to identify those who are 100% made and confirmed by multiple sources is admirable. But remember, before family secrets no one had even heard of Al Tornabene, and we later find out he was most likely running the whole outfit at one stage or another.

In my opinion, what we are looking at is a small, tight knit network of semi legitimate businessman who still make money using illegal means in addition to the legal ones. Some elements are more “street” than others I’m sure. The thing is definitely still there, in a much reduced and much more niche capacity.

Anyone who thinks there's 30 or 40 members of the Outfit today needs their head examined. Even 20 is a stretch. As far as people being made post-1990's, we have no definitive evidence of it. And, even if we assume there has been, it's doubtful it's been in significant numbers. Especially in terms of enough to offset the members who have died over that time period.

I suspect most of the members or even suspected members listed are either inactive or at least semi-retired. You certainly don't hear much from most of them nowadays. When it comes to cases like DelGiudice, Paloian, or Carparelli, for example, the connections seem somewhat tentative frankly more signs of the decline than anything. There's a reason Sallett said the Outfit is running on fumes.

Love how you ridicule people for their opinions then use your own to antiquate what size a family is. Lol. Priceless.

"I suspect", "its doubtful its been in significant numbers", "connections seem somewhat tentative"....

Im trying to be respectful but in all seriousness you really are like a woman. You do not hold any expert title. You rely on articles and indictments only to then insert your own opinions beyond the actual articles or indictments. Youre views and logic are in decline like the mob you so deeply rely on for self worth