Random historic info

[Antiliar]

This account about Messina in 1770 describes guards with Mafia-like attributes (page 7):
https://books.google.com/books?id=i_JCA ... ed&f=false

[B.]

Sounds like the mentality was there for sure. Would be a big revelation if the formal mafia existed in Messina, especially that early.

[PolackTony]

In Lupo’s account, the mafia didn’t emerge in Eastern Sicily primarily due to differences in land tenure and land reform, as well as obviously the large export market centered in Western Sicily. Maybe there were similar enough social conditions in specific parts of Messina that something similar emerged there as well. Given that cognate groups developed in Campania and Calabria, a comparative economic history examining what features were both similar and different across these areas could be very interesting. With Messina, the proximity and contact with Calabria remains an interesting question, in that if a mafia-type phenomenon emerged in one potentially it could spread to the other.

[Antiliar]

Sounds like the mentality was there for sure. Would be a big revelation if the formal mafia existed in Messina, especially that early.

I'm not claiming that there was a Mafia in Messina that early, but it does show that mafia-style structures existed. Members of royalty essentially acted like mob bosses. The law was whatever they decreed. The common worker had few, if any, rights. The baron or the prince could demand taxes from the poorest and if they weren't paid then they could end up disabled for the rest of their short lives.

[B.]

Sounds like the mentality was there for sure. Would be a big revelation if the formal mafia existed in Messina, especially that early.

I'm not claiming that there was a Mafia in Messina that early, but it does show that mafia-style structures existed. Members of royalty essentially acted like mob bosses. The law was whatever they decreed. The common worker had few, if any, rights. The baron or the prince could demand taxes from the poorest and if they weren't paid then they could end up disabled for the rest of their short lives.

Didn't think you were making any claims, so no worries there. I'm excited about people looking into Messina regardless of what can be found, as it would greatly impact the Italian government's (relatively limited) understanding of how the mafia evolved.

Tony -- another reason given by Italian Parliament for the lack of mafia presence in Messina is they modeled local government after Central and Northern Italy municipal styles which limited the "communal power" exploited by the mafia in Western Sicily. Can't fully wrap my brain around the details of that, but on a gut level it makes sense the differences between western Vs. eastern local government played a role.

Would be great to find out there was some presence even if it couldn't develop like it did in the west.

[PolackTony]

Sounds like the mentality was there for sure. Would be a big revelation if the formal mafia existed in Messina, especially that early.

I'm not claiming that there was a Mafia in Messina that early, but it does show that mafia-style structures existed. Members of royalty essentially acted like mob bosses. The law was whatever they decreed. The common worker had few, if any, rights. The baron or the prince could demand taxes from the poorest and if they weren't paid then they could end up disabled for the rest of their short lives.

Tony -- another reason given by Italian Parliament for the lack of mafia presence in Messina is they modeled local government after Central and Northern Italy municipal styles which limited the "communal power" exploited by the mafia in Western Sicily. Can't fully wrap my brain around the details of that, but on a gut level it makes sense the differences between western Vs. eastern local government played a role.

I think that's an important factor as well. Key to the mafia's emergence were various interstices or junctures between social formations -- latifondista vs peasant, mine owner vs worker, politician vs electorate, brigand vs prey -- that provided opportunities for the mafia to exploit as mediators. While Palermo was obviously the seat of political power, I'm sure other factors related to the powers retained by communal government in the West were critical here. I don't know enough about differences in municipal government models across Italy for this period to parse the exact ways that this created specific opportunity structures in the West in distinction to the East, though it's something I'd like to look into further (assuming that I have the time, which I won't). I wonder how similar some of these municipal powers were in Campania and Calabria to Western Sicily. Could be another factor along with land tenure and specific ways that production and exchange were structured that might lend itself to a broader comparative analysis across regions.

[Angelo Santino]

Tony never ceases to amaze with his good points.

I don't know if there was a Mafia in Messina that early on, but a few things to consider-
1 The Mafia was "exportable" by the 1850's as a fully formed entity as evidenced by its existence in Tunis and New Orleans so...
2 Messinese were part of American Mafia history since their little squabble with the Palermitans and then Taranto/Bettini later.
3 There are people/clusters who came from towns which have no recorded mafia history.

I believe the Mafia formed between 1810 and no later than 1830. I suspect the British occupation from 1805-1816 may have played a part. I fervently, strenously disbelieve that the Carboneria had any direct role. The Carboneria didn't introduce to Sicilians some brand new concept of having ranks, ceremonies or secret societies. I know what's been said and I've looked into it as best as I could and I just don't see it. It's like saying an infant kitten grew up to become a dog.

The Freemasons on the other hand, we have the Mafia in Agrigento having "universal republic" in their ritual which was a Freemason term. DiLeonardo's grandfather or great GF was a Freemason. 100 years later in the 1970's Mafia members would still join the freemasonry. I know one source said that to be a member one couldn't be a Freemason but the evidence just doesn't support it. I have no ego in this.

[Antiliar]

Tony never ceases to amaze with his good points.

I don't know if there was a Mafia in Messina that early on, but a few things to consider-
1 The Mafia was "exportable" by the 1850's as a fully formed entity as evidenced by its existence in Tunis and New Orleans so...
2 Messinese were part of American Mafia history since their little squabble with the Palermitans and then Taranto/Bettini later.
3 There are people/clusters who came from towns which have no recorded mafia history.

I believe the Mafia formed between 1810 and no later than 1830. I suspect the British occupation from 1805-1816 may have played a part. I fervently, strenously disbelieve that the Carboneria had any direct role. The Carboneria didn't introduce to Sicilians some brand new concept of having ranks, ceremonies or secret societies. I know what's been said and I've looked into it as best as I could and I just don't see it. It's like saying an infant kitten grew up to become a dog.

The Freemasons on the other hand, we have the Mafia in Agrigento having "universal republic" in their ritual which was a Freemason term. DiLeonardo's grandfather or great GF was a Freemason. 100 years later in the 1970's Mafia members would still join the freemasonry. I know one source said that to be a member one couldn't be a Freemason but the evidence just doesn't support it. I have no ego in this.

This is one of the few areas where we agree to disagree. The part I disagree with is the Carboneria. The Carboneria had nearly (if not all) the same vocabulary of the Freemasons. The Carboneria was known to have spread to Sicily and would have been more accessible to the commoner than Freemasonry, which was selective. So I think in terms of the contemporary cultural context it would have been more likely that what became the Mafia picked up terms like "universal republic" from the Carboneria, which in turn obtained it from Freemasonry. Besides, the Roman Catholic church declared Freemasonry anathema and the influential revolutionary Giuseppe Mazzini was a member of the Carboneria.

[B.]

The mafia's adaptability and reach should have given them a foothold in the eastern part of the island by the 1800s, you'd think. Catania became a stronghold in the east, but according to Calderone not until well into the 1900s. His timeline for Tunis was off but I trust him with local Catania history. Don't remember if he said anything about Messina one way or another but Catania was heavily involved with the Caltanissetta groups.

We have confirmation of organized mafia groups developing in Tunis, Marseilles, Catania, and New Orleans, but little has been found in Messina until these more recent charts showing one or two recognized Families there (the main one being near the border of Palermo province). We know the mafia left Tunis when the French government left, so they seem to have found French government sympathetic/exploitable given they also had a Family in Marseilles. The US was obviously viewed similarly as they set up Families all over the country. Was Messina's local government as consistently unhospitable to the mafia as Italian Parliament thought? Would that have actually deterred the mafia? No idea but that was their theory on the lack of historic mafia presence there, though it's likely there was some level of contact between mafiosi and Messina.

The 1770 description of the Messinese bandits/guards lends itself to a mafia-like philosophy or system -- identifying a mafia group active in 1770 wouldn't only be a big deal in Messina, but it would be a big revelation for overall Sicilian mafia history given we don't start to see signs of it even in Western Sicily until the early 1800s. There's so much that is unpredictable about this stuff too -- for example, Allegra said the Castelvetrano Family voted to disband due to Fascist pressure, yet they not only reformed but are today one of the most powerful groups. Can't always use today's metrics to understand the past.

[B.]

What's interesting about early US mafioso Giuseppe Esposito being from Alia is in recent decades a prince from the royal bloodline was ID'd as a "man of honor" in the Alia Family. It was a controversy because he was part of Queen Elizabeth's welcome party.

If a modern prince was made in Alia it suggests an interesting history with that Family. Esposito could have represented a "Basso" element given his banditry while the possibility of noble/royal mafia lineage in Alia would mean a significant "Alta" group. Italian authorities were convinced the Alta/Basso dynamic was a big factor in the early Sicilian mafia's strength.

I consider the racketeer vs. gangster dynamic talked about by Gravano and the Sicilian businessman vs. Calabrian "shooter" dynamic from Leonetti to be a later American take on the older Alta vs. Basso idea. Same with Massino's "it takes all types of meat to make a good stew" discussion.

[PolackTony]

Tony never ceases to amaze with his good points.

Thanks for the kinds words, brother. Coming from you, I take that as quite a compliment.

On the question of the Carbonari, I'm personally agnostic. I think it's plausible that at least some of the quasi-masonic influences were filtered through those groups, but there may or may not be a direct line of influence from the Carbonari to the mafia. The "universal republic" thing in Agrigento is interesting but hard to say if it represents a specific line of direct influence from either Freemasonry or the Carbonari. Following the French Revolution, republicanism and related ideas percolated across Europe and the Atlantic. Freemasonry was a major conduit in many places for this influence, but I think those ideas and memes filtered out more boradly to people not directly affiliated with Masonry or Masonic-influenced political movements. There was a lot of "republican" ferment going on during the period when the mafia most likely formed, terms like "universal republic" could've been floating around in the atmosphere. One can also imagine mafiosi picking up some of those memes and using them to weave a mythos and sense of larger, collective identity and purpose to their organizations (an important factor in forging solidarity and a sense of collectivity). Not arguing for or against specific Masonic or Carboneria influences or direct links of course. I do think those are possible. There were of course mafiosi from various classes and walks of life, wouldn't be surprising if a couple of them were Masons or Carbonari, and even one person could have a major cultural impact if he contributed ideas or memes that then others in that world took up and replicated.

On the subject of the mafia and Freemasonry, is there any evidence of US members that were masons?

[B.]

Be good to know if there was a reason behind the rule Calderone said barred freemasonry. Doesn't mean they were never masons before that but could have had a bad experience and banned it (the motivation for banning some other practices). They went back on the rule and the Sicilian mafia heavily infiltrated the freenasons later. Maybe the masons took a political turn for a time that was at odds with the mafia which is why they banned it for a period.

When a bunch of Genovese members became masons in the 1960s they seemed giddy about it on the DeCarlo bug but noted how much they had to memorize.

In the early US tons of members were part of compaesani-based fraternal orgs but I don't know if those were for immigrant unity or if similar fraternal groups existed in Sicily. Assume the former but no idea.

[B.]

Calderone also said there was a rule against using insanity to get out of charges. Said a man of honor was expected to accept his fate with dignity. This changed by the maxi trial where many people tried to use insanity. Maybe the scope of the trial and charges forced them to use any tool available.

[Angelo Santino]

Tony never ceases to amaze with his good points.

Thanks for the kinds words, brother. Coming from you, I take that as quite a compliment.

On the question of the Carbonari, I'm personally agnostic. I think it's plausible that at least some of the quasi-masonic influences were filtered through those groups, but there may or may not be a direct line of influence from the Carbonari to the mafia. The "universal republic" thing in Agrigento is interesting but hard to say if it represents a specific line of direct influence from either Freemasonry or the Carbonari. Following the French Revolution, republicanism and related ideas percolated across Europe and the Atlantic. Freemasonry was a major conduit in many places for this influence, but I think those ideas and memes filtered out more boradly to people not directly affiliated with Masonry or Masonic-influenced political movements. There was a lot of "republican" ferment going on during the period when the mafia most likely formed, terms like "universal republic" could've been floating around in the atmosphere. One can also imagine mafiosi picking up some of those memes and using them to weave a mythos and sense of larger, collective identity and purpose to their organizations (an important factor in forging solidarity and a sense of collectivity). Not arguing for or against specific Masonic or Carboneria influences or direct links of course. I do think those are possible. There were of course mafiosi from various classes and walks of life, wouldn't be surprising if a couple of them were Masons or Carbonari, and even one person could have a major cultural impact if he contributed ideas or memes that then others in that world took up and replicated.

On the subject of the mafia and Freemasonry, is there any evidence of US members that were masons?

If you're interested, we can have another 3-way call and I'll administer of oath of secrecy and after you agree, I'll go into some things.

[PolackTony]

Tony never ceases to amaze with his good points.

Thanks for the kinds words, brother. Coming from you, I take that as quite a compliment.

On the question of the Carbonari, I'm personally agnostic. I think it's plausible that at least some of the quasi-masonic influences were filtered through those groups, but there may or may not be a direct line of influence from the Carbonari to the mafia. The "universal republic" thing in Agrigento is interesting but hard to say if it represents a specific line of direct influence from either Freemasonry or the Carbonari. Following the French Revolution, republicanism and related ideas percolated across Europe and the Atlantic. Freemasonry was a major conduit in many places for this influence, but I think those ideas and memes filtered out more boradly to people not directly affiliated with Masonry or Masonic-influenced political movements. There was a lot of "republican" ferment going on during the period when the mafia most likely formed, terms like "universal republic" could've been floating around in the atmosphere. One can also imagine mafiosi picking up some of those memes and using them to weave a mythos and sense of larger, collective identity and purpose to their organizations (an important factor in forging solidarity and a sense of collectivity). Not arguing for or against specific Masonic or Carboneria influences or direct links of course. I do think those are possible. There were of course mafiosi from various classes and walks of life, wouldn't be surprising if a couple of them were Masons or Carbonari, and even one person could have a major cultural impact if he contributed ideas or memes that then others in that world took up and replicated.

On the subject of the mafia and Freemasonry, is there any evidence of US members that were masons?

If you're interested, we can have another 3-way call and I'll administer of oath of secrecy and after you agree, I'll go into some things.

If I betray my brothers, may I burn like this card.