Buffalo/Ontario Mob Acitivity

[Wiseguy]

Just curious as to your opinion on where these rumours are coming from. Do you think it’s a possibility that he was made in “LA” by a faction of the gambinos regardless of the state of the family there, or do you think the whole thing is bullshit?

It's hard to even comment because so little is known about this and it's not clear we'll ever get any further insight.

I don't believe there is a faction of the Gambino family in Los Angeles. You could probably count the number of members from all families in the U.S. who live in the western states on two hands.

That's a dodge you wouldn't let others get away with. Aside from Mike Dash's book The First Family, who represents this tradition? Even Dash has an open mind toward other possibilities if the evidence supports it. What evidence do you have to support your view over the one we presented in our article?

I'll have to answer this tomorrow since it's going to require more than a brief answer.

I don't know about being the first Boss but I know when I started on the forums in the late 1990s the conventional view was that the group he headed was the oldest of the NY 5. That view no doubt goes back even further than that. So it predates the Dash book (unless you are talking about a different book) which was published in 2009.


Pogo

That's what I'm saying. I don't know who started the idea, or if the theory has some main proponent, but for years things I read, not just on the forums, but elsewhere online it always seemed like the general thinking was the Genovese family was the oldest. And when Antiliar, Christie, and lennert referred to their article as "an alternative theory," I always assumed the Genovese being the oldest was what they were putting forth an alternative theory to.

[Antiliar]

It was basically an alternative to Mike Dash and David Critchley's theories. We respect them and their work, but found new evidence that led us in a different direction.

[TommyNoto]

And for each article's statements Mike McAndrew the head of the watchdog journalists for the Buffalo news has annotated the court documents backing each statement. Yes the name of the Federal LE investigators isn't always revealed, but it has in certain instances. I don't think we want all of the names to be revealed as it is an active investigation and court documents indicate Peter Gerace may have been involved in intimidating witnesses. This is the reason the Federal Judge has denied the release of the information in the search warrant. Yes, we can assume Gerace has intimidated his Ex Katrina Nigro, but do we really want to put others who may testify in danger by naming names?

And because you will say I am making this up here is an article for your reference. And by the way I have seen some of court documents this article references. They are on Pacer.

Article
Judge keeps search warrant applications sealed in Buffalo organized crime case
Lou Michel Jun 29, 2021 Updated Aug 12, 2021

Quotes from the article since you will likely encounter a firewall:

Citing government concerns of possible witness intimidation, a judge refused Tuesday to unseal federal agents' requests for warrants to search the homes, computers and phones of a former DEA agent and the Cheektowaga strip club owner who is accused of bribing him.

U.S. Magistrate Judge Michael J. Roemer sided with Assistant U.S. Attorney Joseph M. Tripi’s arguments that if the applications for the search warrants were released it would identify and put at risk more than a dozen government witnesses in the ongoing organized crime investigation and upcoming trial of the two defendants.

...
Unsealing the search warrants, Tripi argued, would not only open the door to potential witness intimidation, but create reluctance among witnesses to testify.

“We’ll struggle later to get these witnesses to take the stand,” he said.

...
LaTona and Harrington also told Roemer that they would be willing to enter into a protective order that would allow only them to read the search warrant documents. LaTona, however, also reserved the right to discuss the search warrant information with Gerace and others as he builds a case.

Tripi jumped on that.

“…he gets to read them and then gets to verbally transmit it to others. That is totally unacceptable,” Tripi said, adding that if the search warrant documents were unsealed, the case would be severely compromised.

The prosecutor, who is working with Assistant U.S. Attorney Brendan T. Cullinane, also argued that the indictment charging the defendants and other related court documents already provide the defense attorneys with information on the government’s case, making it unnecessary to unseal the search warrants.

Those documents also leave no doubt of what the government’s overall intentions are – to go after organized crime. The Bongiovanni search warrant allowed investigators to seize, for instance, “Notes and ledgers relating to association and illegal activities of members or associates of organized crime, including IOC (Italian Organized Crime) and the Buffalo LCN (La Cosa Nostra) Family.”

Link to the article: https://buffalonews.com/news/local/crim ... 4fcd0.html

Who is not on the record? How is the so nebulous and tenuous? Can it get any more clear? What don't you understand? Do your really want LE officer named? Do you want this investigation derailed to prove your point?

“Notes and ledgers relating to association and illegal activities of members or associates of organized crime, including IOC (Italian Organized Crime) and the Buffalo LCN (La Cosa Nostra) Family.”


Nickel this is fascinating material you found with LE making a distinction between IOC AND Buffalo. We know NYC is involved in this as well.

With these families working together and their history it seems like Canada, Buffalo and NYC might be involved in drug routes. The DEA agent (likely others per LE) was getting serious money so this drug operation is likely generating significant cash flow to cover those expenses. It’s interesting they bring up gun running as it’s much easier to get guns in the USA vs Canada. We already know American gun dealers sell Mexican Cartles their arms, huge $.

[thesociety 89]

@wiseguy, give it a rest fella, the other two lads are stone cold buffalo heads, you're just looking silly now brother

[Wiseguy]

@wiseguy, give it a rest fella, the other two lads are stone cold buffalo heads, you're just looking silly now brother

This basically sums up what passes for a Buffalo poster on this forum nowadays.

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This is all just a tempest in a teacup, as they say. Just give it time. You and everyone else on this forum will see.

[Moscone65]

Wiseguy you have to admit, regardless of the viability of the family (as compared to what exactly?) there’s some shit still going on in Buffalo. For you to say there isn’t would be going against the grain. There’s too much to support against it.

[Newyorkempire]

@wiseguy, give it a rest fella, the other two lads are stone cold buffalo heads, you're just looking silly now brother

This basically sums up what passes for a Buffalo poster on this forum nowadays.


200.gif


This is all just a tempest in a teacup, as they say. Just give it time. You and everyone else on this forum will see.

+1

Funny. But you're still dead in the water.

[thesociety 89]

Easiest way to sort this....if we all meet up at la nova, when Todaro is working, and just show him the goings on with this thread and say 'listen joe, we want to put this to bed, for everyones sake, wiseguy, nickle and newyorkempire are losing their fucking minds, as is everyone else......how many made guys yer got fella?'

[NickleCity]

Wiseguy when something is posted about Buffalo on BHF

[Newyorkempire]

Easiest way to sort this....if we all meet up at la nova, when Todaro is working, and just show him the goings on with this thread and say 'listen joe, we want to put this to bed, for everyones sake, wiseguy, nickle and newyorkempire are losing their fucking minds, as is everyone else......how many made guys yer got fella?'

[Wiseguy]

That's a dodge you wouldn't let others get away with. Aside from Mike Dash's book The First Family, who represents this tradition? Even Dash has an open mind toward other possibilities if the evidence supports it. What evidence do you have to support your view over the one we presented in our article?

OK, so my understanding is that the alternative theory argues the Gambinos are actually the oldest New York family, with Nicola Taranto arriving in NY in 1888 and "head of the area's sole Mafia family by 1890." Of course, he was imprisoned and 1896 and said to have retired by the 1900's.

Since you mentioned him, this obviously goes against Dash's assertion that, "There was no Mafia when Morello arrived in the United States, no network of families such as existed in Sicily, no American 'boss of bosses'—perhaps no cosche operating on the far side of the Atlantic at all. But there were emigrant Mafiosi living in several states, and these men were in communication with the families that they had left behind in Italy, both actual and criminal."

The alternative theory, from my understanding, rests on the idea (at least when the Informer article first came out) that the Taranto and Iganzio Lupo both being Palermantani meant that Lupo would have been affiliated with Taranto, or at least filled the void, after Taranto was out of the picture. To support this theory, the article cited a few interesting, albeit rather circumstantial, pieces of evidence including the "House of Lupo" phrase in a letter to Morello; conversations between Lupo, Morello, and others where Lupo spoke to Morello as if he were an equal; and one informant claming Lupo had established his own gang in lower Manhattan.

This naturally counters the traditional theory that Morello and Lupo were part of the same organization run by Morello, which seems to have been the result of Lupo marrying into the Morello-Terranova family, Giuseppe Morello and Lupo being involved in at least two murders together, both Morello and Lupo being part of the Ignatz-Florio Co-operative Association, and both arrested as part of a counterfeiting operation in 1909.

From what I can tell, for the alternative theory to work, A) there has to be a clear link of succession between Taranto and Lupo, and B) it has to be established that Lupo had his own organization. If Lupo was part of the Morello organization, it doesn't necessarily matter how early Taranto stepped on American soil if no clear lines of succession from him to Lupo can be established. And even if we assume that Lupo ran a separate organization from Morello, one that ultimately became the Gambino family, the same succession issue applies. Particularly since Lupo arrived in NY after Morello. If a clear link between Taranto and Lupo can't be established, the Gambino family would either 1) originate from 1898 (if Lupo was separate from Morello) or 2) originate from 1910 (if Morello and Lupo were together) with the D'Aquila break off. Either way, after Morello.

More recently, if I remember correctly, new information seems to have suggested that Taranto was from Messina and not Palermo. This would seem to undercut the regional/kinship model the alternative theory was based on where it was thought they were both Palermantani. Even if we assume, as you said, that Taranto was the "Supreme Head" of the American Mafia at the time (based on letters recovered by the Secret Service), it again comes down to what links can be established to Lupo or anyone else that can clearly be seen as part of what would become the Gambino family.

That said, I'm also aware of the challenge to the traditional idea of the Genovese family being the oldest coming from the other direction, i.e. even if the Morello organization was the first, there is the question of it splitting apart once he went to prison in 1910. As B has pointed out, there is the question where the members of the Morello organization/Corleonesi ended up and how many went where, i.e. Reina, LoMonte brothers, etc. I'm not sure if there is a definitive answer on that. B saying the "Genovese/Lucchese for the Morello Family seems like the most reasonable approach" more or less lines up with Hunt's take that, "The Morello organization may be viewed as a forerunner of the Genovese and Lucchese organizations and as a contributor to the Gambino organization." Hunt also said, "The Morello group is often viewed as the direct ancestor of the Genovese Crime Family, but the Genovese group appears to have evolved independently in lower Manhattan before remnants of the Morello faction merged into it," which sort of goes to B's Joe Bonanno in 1964 comparison. I suppose it depends on how you want to look at that.

As an aside, Dash also said, "Morello was the guy who essentially set up the Mafia in New York. There had been some stories of individual Mafioso arriving, but what Morello did that no one had done before was to actually set up a formally run Mafia family in the New York area and build that up into a quite significant criminal empire. The reason the book is called "The First Family" is that although there were Mafia-like figures in America before Morello, particularly in New Orleans, they didn’t survive. The Morello family did survive -- and merged with what became known as the Genovese crime family, which is still active in New York. It was the precursor to a lot of organized crime."

Regarding New Orleans, I've always thought there was an unclear connection between the Matrangas and Corrado Giacona or Silvestro Carollo. If Giacona or Carollo did succeed Matranga, New Orleans would be the earliest family with line of succession from around time Matrangas came to prominence in the 1880s. However, I've seen it doubted by some researchers that the Matrangas were the same organization as those that came later. If the the connection can't be established, I'm not sure a clear succession begins until around 1922 with Giacona or Carollo. Which would go to Dash's contention that the organizations of these earlier mafiosi before Morello didn't survive and calls into question the traditional idea that New Orleans was the first family.

Disclaimer: It should be noted that all the holes above in the early years (1800's to 1930) is why that time period has never been my main focus. Too many open ended questions. I'm familiar with the broad strokes but it's not my niche, so to speak, as the later time period (2000-present) is. I haven't obsessively studied it as much as the most recent years so I'm not going to necessarily take as firm of a stance on things. The original crack at Christie was just a joke. Not trying to lay down the gauntlet regarding the early years.

Wiseguy you have to admit, regardless of the viability of the family (as compared to what exactly?) there’s some shit still going on in Buffalo. For you to say there isn’t would be going against the grain. There’s too much to support against it.

I suppose the whole point of this 350+ page thread has been exactly what that "shit" is. Sure, there's "some shit" going on in Buffalo. But in my estimation, nothing that outweighs statements made by several former law enforcement officials regarding the family being defunct, the relatively few cases over the last 20-25 years, and the fact there are only about a dozen known mostly old and inactive members still living. Especially when you look past all the hype and closely examine what the cases mainly revolving around Bongiovanni are comprised of. Comparatively speaking, Violi being made in the Buffalo LCN is more significant and pertinent than anything that has happened in Buffalo over the last 5 year. But even with Violi, you have to look at it closely. Him being made doesn't outweigh what I mentioned above and nothing I've seen convinces me he's not just an outlier or anomaly. A special or unique case coming from his pedigree more than any real current factors related to Buffalo.

Easiest way to sort this....if we all meet up at la nova, when Todaro is working, and just show him the goings on with this thread and say 'listen joe, we want to put this to bed, for everyones sake, wiseguy, nickle and newyorkempire are losing their fucking minds, as is everyone else......how many made guys yer got fella?'

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHCdRDXxlEw

Wiseguy when something is posted about Buffalo on BHF

On the contrary, I wish people would look more closely at the details of these things regarding Buffalo and not just the surface-level hype.

[Antiliar]

That's a dodge you wouldn't let others get away with. Aside from Mike Dash's book The First Family, who represents this tradition? Even Dash has an open mind toward other possibilities if the evidence supports it. What evidence do you have to support your view over the one we presented in our article?

OK, so my understanding is that the alternative theory argues the Gambinos are actually the oldest New York family, with Nicola Taranto arriving in NY in 1888 and "head of the area's sole Mafia family by 1890." Of course, he was imprisoned and 1896 and said to have retired by the 1900's.

Since you mentioned him, this obviously goes against Dash's assertion that, "There was no Mafia when Morello arrived in the United States, no network of families such as existed in Sicily, no American 'boss of bosses'—perhaps no cosche operating on the far side of the Atlantic at all. But there were emigrant Mafiosi living in several states, and these men were in communication with the families that they had left behind in Italy, both actual and criminal."

The alternative theory, from my understanding, rests on the idea (at least when the Informer article first came out) that the Taranto and Iganzio Lupo both being Palermantani meant that Lupo would have been affiliated with Taranto, or at least filled the void, after Taranto was out of the picture. To support this theory, the article cited a few interesting, albeit rather circumstantial, pieces of evidence including the "House of Lupo" phrase in a letter to Morello; conversations between Lupo, Morello, and others where Lupo spoke to Morello as if he were an equal; and one informant claming Lupo had established his own gang in lower Manhattan.

This naturally counters the traditional theory that Morello and Lupo were part of the same organization run by Morello, which seems to have been the result of Lupo marrying into the Morello-Terranova family, Giuseppe Morello and Lupo being involved in at least two murders together, both Morello and Lupo being part of the Ignatz-Florio Co-operative Association, and both arrested as part of a counterfeiting operation in 1909.

From what I can tell, for the alternative theory to work, A) there has to be a clear link of succession between Taranto and Lupo, and B) it has to be established that Lupo had his own organization. If Lupo was part of the Morello organization, it doesn't necessarily matter how early Taranto stepped on American soil if no clear lines of succession from him to Lupo can be established. And even if we assume that Lupo ran a separate organization from Morello, one that ultimately became the Gambino family, the same succession issue applies. Particularly since Lupo arrived in NY after Morello. If a clear link between Taranto and Lupo can't be established, the Gambino family would either 1) originate from 1898 (if Lupo was separate from Morello) or 2) originate from 1910 (if Morello and Lupo were together) with the D'Aquila break off. Either way, after Morello.

More recently, if I remember correctly, new information seems to have suggested that Taranto was from Messina and not Palermo. This would seem to undercut the regional/kinship model the alternative theory was based on where it was thought they were both Palermantani. Even if we assume, as you said, that Taranto was the "Supreme Head" of the American Mafia at the time (based on letters recovered by the Secret Service), it again comes down to what links can be established to Lupo or anyone else that can clearly be seen as part of what would become the Gambino family.

That said, I'm also aware of the challenge to the traditional idea of the Genovese family being the oldest coming from the other direction, i.e. even if the Morello organization was the first, there is the question of it splitting apart once he went to prison in 1910. As B has pointed out, there is the question where the members of the Morello organization/Corleonesi ended up and how many went where, i.e. Reina, LoMonte brothers, etc. I'm not sure if there is a definitive answer on that. B saying the "Genovese/Lucchese for the Morello Family seems like the most reasonable approach" more or less lines up with Hunt's take that, "The Morello organization may be viewed as a forerunner of the Genovese and Lucchese organizations and as a contributor to the Gambino organization." Hunt also said, "The Morello group is often viewed as the direct ancestor of the Genovese Crime Family, but the Genovese group appears to have evolved independently in lower Manhattan before remnants of the Morello faction merged into it," which sort of goes to B's Joe Bonanno in 1964 comparison. I suppose it depends on how you want to look at that.

As an aside, Dash also said, "Morello was the guy who essentially set up the Mafia in New York. There had been some stories of individual Mafioso arriving, but what Morello did that no one had done before was to actually set up a formally run Mafia family in the New York area and build that up into a quite significant criminal empire. The reason the book is called "The First Family" is that although there were Mafia-like figures in America before Morello, particularly in New Orleans, they didn’t survive. The Morello family did survive -- and merged with what became known as the Genovese crime family, which is still active in New York. It was the precursor to a lot of organized crime."

Regarding New Orleans, I've always thought there was an unclear connection between the Matrangas and Corrado Giacona or Silvestro Carollo. If Giacona or Carollo did succeed Matranga, New Orleans would be the earliest family with line of succession from around time Matrangas came to prominence in the 1880s. However, I've seen it doubted by some researchers that the Matrangas were the same organization as those that came later. If the the connection can't be established, I'm not sure a clear succession begins until around 1922 with Giacona or Carollo. Which would go to Dash's contention that the organizations of these earlier mafiosi before Morello didn't survive and calls into question the traditional idea that New Orleans was the first family.

Disclaimer: It should be noted that all the holes above in the early years (1800's to 1930) is why that time period has never been my main focus. Too many open ended questions. I'm familiar with the broad strokes but it's not my niche, so to speak, as the later time period (2000-present) is. I haven't obsessively studied it as much as the most recent years so I'm not going to necessarily take as firm of a stance on things. The original crack at Christie was just a joke. Not trying to lay down the gauntlet regarding the early years.

Thanks for bringing more to the table. Again, we can all have different opinions and agree to disagree. I'm just interested in your reasoning.

So what I see is that what you call "Traditional" is essentially what Mike Dash wrote with a little bit of Tom Hunt. The First Family was published in 2009, so if this is what you consider a tradition, it doesn't go back very far. Dash used my work for his book (you can look in the sources he cited) and was very interested in an old piece I wrote on the Axe-Man of New Orleans (I've since changed my views on this, following newer evidence). Dash's book is a great book, and I highly recommend it, but like my Axe-Man piece, new evidence has come in.

In our article I do refer to the "House of Lupo" letter found in the New York Times on May 8, 1903. This is significant. It uses a phrase used to refer to royal dynasties and was later used by Salvatore Maranzano ("House of Cola Schiro"). We also have letters written to the Palermo police chief after the murder of Lt. Petrosino that confirm that Lupo was the rappresentante of a borgata. Angelo pointed out that Lupo addressed Morello in a way no one else would. Maybe this evidence doesn't seem like much to you, but evidence before Salvatore Clemente told of the four borgatas is hard to come by. Taken together it clearly shows that Lupo was a boss in his own right as early as 1903.

Then there's the issue of succession from Taranto. First, Taranto being from Messina was never an issue for me. His number 2 or 3 man Candelaro Bettini was also from Messina (and as we recently found out, a relative), and Bettini had previously partnered with Gaetano Russo, who was probably from Palermo and was a resident of New Orleans before he traveled across the country. Several other members of the group with Taranto who were arrested in 1896 were also from Palermo. They were all Sicilians and were accepted by the Palermitani.

Second, we couldn't even figure out the Genovese Family succession after Vito Genovese until recently, and there's a ton of evidence out there compared to the scant evidence for a lot of things in the 1890s. The Secret Service was for the most part the only agency that investigated the Mafia before the Federal Bureau of Narcotics, and its focus was on the criminal prosecutions of counterfeiting, not on the history of the Cosa Nostra. When the Secret Service wrote about Lupo and Morello, it wrote about them as counterfeiters, not Mafiosi. Our understanding that Morello was the Boss of Bosses, if I'm not mistaken, only comes from one source - Nick Gentile. Without him, we'd be in the dark on a huge portion of the history of the Mafia in America. He's the only one who ID'd Vito Di Giorgio as the boss of Los Angeles, Anthony D'Andrea and Mike Merlo as Chicago bosses, and countless others. Yet I don't see complaints about Gentile being the only source for so much information.

So yes, we have a gap in our knowledge between Taranto and Lupo. It's one of the many gaps we have, even gaps that we have about today's Cosa Nostra, but we don't throw out the baby with the bathwater. Maybe at some point we'll fill this gap, or maybe we won't. A lot of records have been destroyed. The 1890 census was lost in a fire, Brooklyn destroyed its archive of business records, the FBI has a file on the hundreds of files it destroyed. Some documents have been lost to theft. The New York Municipal Archives had a photo of Salvatore Maranzano, but it was stolen decades ago.

It's possible that we have the name of the boss or bosses between Taranto and Lupo, but that's all we have, names. The Mafia is (and was) allegedly a secret society, so unless there was an informant, we won't know the significance of the names. To repeat an important phrase, absence of evidence does not equal evidence of absence. The fact is that historians have to deal with gaps in knowledge all the time, but it doesn't follow that the events and people they study never existed.

Finally, regarding New Orleans, there's plenty of evidence to show it's the oldest borgata. Joe Colombo even said it in an FBI file. Just because you're not aware of the evidence because you haven't researched it doesn't mean it's not out there.

[Newyorkempire]

"Surface level hype"....lol. Wtf. This guy is bonkers. Continually grasping at straws. Everything that has come out is far beneath the surface.

"Wise"guy were you last picked for dodge ball each time in grade school?

[Newyorkempire]

Wiseguy when something is posted about Buffalo on BHF

So true.

Also...."Now of with their heads!"

[Newyorkempire]

@wiseguy, give it a rest fella, the other two lads are stone cold buffalo heads, you're just looking silly now brother

This basically sums up what passes for a Buffalo poster on this forum nowadays.


200.gif


This is all just a tempest in a teacup, as they say. Just give it time. You and everyone else on this forum will see.

See what? Its already been seen through FBI reports, RCMP reports and countless articles by accredited journalists. You mean that in 10 years if not RICO is filed you win? Sure, its your victory to have.

Seriously, you got deep issues man. Delusions of your position on the internet and in real life to start. And then deep flaws in logic and reason. You'll figure it out some day