Buffalo/Ontario Mob Acitivity

[Angelo Santino]

I am with you on that. I think that is the problem with the whole debate is the implication that you are a fanboy if you want to believe that Buffalo is still alive; however, there is more than enough information out there that the conversation is completely relevant to what we discuss here. I also acknowledge though that Wiseguy has been one of the key people that has always prevented this board from turning into GBB.

My personal opinion is that Dom Violi wasn't lying. He has one of the strongest mafia pedigrees in Canada, was raised into the life, and is a logical candidate to rise to the position given his family's long-standing ties to Buffalo. I also think he will be out soon and straight back into the life. That is what makes the conversation about Buffalo so interesting, as we wouldn't be having the same discussion concerning Cleveland, Northeast PA etc.

Well, Buffalo's existance is an anomaly in the annals of Mafia History for the past 20 years. Pogo and Wiseguy are veterans who've seen every family in America from Springfield to San Francisco being labeled as secretly active by people who are "trust me, I know" types since 2001. They've cleaned up the board and shown many imposters the door. They've relied on their viability argument that crime equates to existence which is usually but not always the case. I get where they are coming from and respect them for it. But with Buffalo, hell I thought Buffalo was dead but information has come out that has crossed every t and dotted every i that it's still alive. It is what it was. I don't have a vested interest in its existence or demise.

[PolackTony]

JFC this thread is amazing… I have absolutely nothing to contribute to it, but just check in periodically and it’s truly something to behold. At least I can say I’ve learned a lot about Buffalo here.

[Wiseguy]

Really? No brain? Eye Eye Eye… Why do I try!

No, why do I try?

Rico hasnt been brought in a long time. They arrested an Underboss, Captain and Soldiers in Philly last year and NO RICO. So there is more flawed logic on your part.

The hell you talking about? RICO Conspiracy was the first charge in the Mazzone superseding indictment.

You know what else it had that the Buffalo case doesn't? From the press release -

Like other LCN families, the Philadelphia LCN is operated through a defined hierarchical structure, including a Boss, an Underboss (Steven Mazzone), and Captains (Grande), who oversee “crews” consisting of “soldiers” and “associates.”

You know what else Philadelphia has had over the last 20 years that Buffalo hasn't? Ongoing cases.

Why are you even chiming in, you friggin' peasant? You've got the IQ of a lima bean and nothing worthwhile to add.

Now if we can just get him to admit Violi was the Under but I don't see that happening anytime soon.

First, I go with what the evidence shows. It shows that Todaro is the boss. But, as I said, so were D'Elia in NE Pennsylvania, Genovese in Pittsburgh, Iocobacci in Cleveland, Loscalzo in Tampa, Milano in LA, etc.

Second, I never denied Todaro was underboss once it came that he was. Initially, when he was indicted, it wasn't even clear yet if he was made. If you're going to weigh in, at least avoid revisionist history. You've done enough of that with the early years in New York (sorry, couldn't resist)

Boss and underboss of a non-existent Family with no hierarchy? The common denominator between criminal activity carried out by the boss's nephews and the son-in-law of a confirmed member is a corrupt federal agent? The "mafia" is just a term thrown around by the press?

That's what the evidence has shown so far, if you've been paying attention.

It's almost like the guys identified as mob associates who have familial ties to influential members are "connected" in some mysterious way. Good thing Cosa Nostra doesn't use blood and marriage to maintain itself, especially in WNY/Ontario. They must have been ordinary citizens who rallied around a corrupt federal agent they grew up with -- he was the real boss.

Todaro/Violi are a rebel faction of the Bongiovanni Crime Family.

You gotta be kidding me. This is no different than what we've seen in places like Pittsburgh or Kansas City where some individual members, associates, or relatives of members/associates are still engaged in crime after the family has become defunct. The members still retain their rank but they're small in number and there is no functioning hierarchy.

If you want to cast your lot with the "Buffalo is still alive crowd," go ahead, just be prepared to have your feet held to the fire later on.

the drug cases aganist these guys were kinda penny ante no? you really believe THe wing king really involved in a 100 pound weed operation

Bongiovanni was charged with providing protection over a decade for dealers thar distributed 1,000 kilos of marijuana and cocaine.

Peter Magaddino was just the president of a funeral parlor and spent most of his time arranging wakes for people. Vincent Scro ran a linen supply business and he's in his office every day -- FBI wiretaps show he actually talks mainly about the linen business and makes most of his income that way. They just coincidentally happen to be relatives of the boss.

Sammy Gravano met with Todaro and said he made him wade out into the ocean and face the water to talk briefly about NYC. He doesn't care about secrecy, he just loves the ocean.

Domenico Violi just dropped Todaro's name to a Bonanno member because a major Canadian drug dealer needs the credibility of a non-existent organization across the border. The Bonanno Family recognized his status and included him in a member induction because Violi is a nice guy and deserved it. The Bonanno Family is the Make-A-Wish Foundation and they wanted to make a kid's day -- his father died, you know?

I don't know, though, I'm starting to think there's something connecting these guys to each other but I wouldn't want to appear brainless. You'd truly have to be an agenda-driven idiot to consider the possibility that one of America's old mafia strongholds has a small Family left that includes associates related to Family leaders.

You're so stuck in the world of Cosa Nostra theory you can't even recognize the practical, real world facts on the ground.

In regards to Todaro who appears to be representative of a 30-45 man group, what incentive is there for him to close up shop?

First, what orifice did you pull that 30-45 number out of? Second, it's not matter of him closing shop. Time and attrition closed it for him.

Similar to the question of why would he stop making members, promoting people, etc.? What would the incentive be to stop? Legal issues for sure, but beyond that I'm not sure as long as he still had some of the necessary resources.

Well, his father and great-uncle were bosses of the Family. He grew up surrounded by Cosa Nostra leaders and members, you could say it was the entirety of his community at one point.

He went to college for hotel management and assisted his father's successful food and hotel businesses, yet joined Cosa Nostra and assisted his father with that too. Cosa Nostra is important to this guy... it's a core part of his identity as a man. I don't know the guy but does anyone think he would disagree with that if he was allowed to answer truthfully?

Again, it wasn't so much a matter of an intentional or formal decision to call it quits as the family (like many others) simply withered away through attrition. What part of 49 members in 1993, 23 members in 2006, and 12 members today is so hard to understand?

You know it's really hard to tell since the info was pieced together from different sources and not a singular entity such as a Gravano spilling the beans. But each source, when put together, points to the existence of a formal Buffalo Family- Boss, Under, Captains, Soldiers, Associates and activity, so labeling them "remnants" is like labeling Bellomo and what's going on with him today the remnants of the Chin Gigante Organization.

I'm sorry but this is so ignorant of the facts it's hard to even know how to respond? You obviously haven't looked at the cases (really the case) and the defendants closely. The difference between the Bellomo and the organization he heads, and Todaro's situation, is night and day.

And now the argument has drifted towards these low-level dealers being wannabes which I don't really get. No one is saying that the Mafia is a monolithic group of supercriminals. Quite the opposite in fact.

Who used the word "wannabes?" Maybe I missed it. I'm saying it means about as much to be an associate of a non-existent crime family as it does to be the boss of one.

And all that aside, the NY Bonannos recognize them, that should be enough even for the most fervent skeptic. Would there be any member who looked at this forum and the arguments against them made go running to Mancuso: "Noooo. Todaro doesn't even have a consigliere, and there's only one captain listed, we need to blacklist these buncha remnants." Answer is no. We as outsiders aren't seeing all that's there and stating that is a big difference from jumping to conclusions and implying Todaro is a criminal mastermind who evaded law enforcement.

Again, D'Elia was recognized. Didn't change the fact he was one of only a few living members left. Again, Cosa Nostra theory vs practical facts.

Well that's the ongoing argument. There isn't a family in Buffalo because there's no formal structure. Oh, Dom Violi claims he's underboss who ID'd Joe Toadaro as boss well he's just bragging. Cece Luppino is called a Capo by Canadian press well that's just hype. Where's the criminal activity? Oh those drug dealers don't matter they're just wannabes who happen to be related. We've reached a point where a making ceremony could recorded and someone would claim they were simply roleplaying and that it's nothing but fanboys buying into hype.

Call me crazy but I thought having a hierarchy was a fundamental part of organized crime. Rocco Luppino was identified as the captain in Hamilton (current crew size: 2). Cece Luppino was the one who was killed.

One question I have is, when has a member ever went to a member of another family and lied about his position? It will come back and there will be repercussions for such a lie. Violi likes to talk? No shit, for god sakes he had Soprano replica in his office. But for him to go to the Bonannos and lie about being Underboss? Doesn't happen. It would be like me stating Solai put me in charge of the forum, it would would one PM away from being debunked and me losing serious face in the eyes of our members.

Who said Violi was lying about being underboss? Now beating out 30 other members to become underboss, that's a different story.

[B.]

It's not a black and white "Buffalo is still alive" vs. "Buffalo is defunct" argument, so I throw in with nobody. I'm not in the mafia or FBI, just on the side of discussing available info. We have different definitions of what constitutes a Cosa Nostra Family and I understand where you're coming from but have a different POV based on my research. That makes it impossible to find consensus and we don't need one anyway.

For example, I don't consider Rochester even at their peak to have been a Family because the Commission didn't. Same with Arizona. Yet the FBI included them on lists of Families because it was relevant to their investigation into OC. This is where the FBI's POV and the mafia's own POV differs. The Buffalo Family is recognized by the Bonanno Family and if Violi is right Todaro is also recognized by other NYC Families. He said this to another made member who could verify the info with his superiors if there was any question. The implication is that his superiors already recognized Todaro though given they followed time-honored regional protocol by including Violi in their Canadian visit and used him as a local point of contact for Morena.

NickleCity has WNY/Ontario as his "beat" and I can't speak to his local claims so I can't confirm/deny that stuff but as a researcher he is obsessive and has continually found amazing connections between some of the surnames, businesses, and history of Buffalo people past and present. Those are the kinds of details that historic mafia researchers also pull from and like with historic info it's not a smoking gun without a member source but I file his findings under "very interesting" without jumping to conclusions. These people are all deeply connected over generations and Buffalo Cosa Nostra has been all around them even if it's just traces/relationships now.

[OcSleeper]

He's been out on day parole since November for a 6 month test period.
https://nationalpost.com/news/mafia-und ... -in-prison

[B.]

You're so stuck in the world of Cosa Nostra theory you can't even recognize the practical, real world facts on the ground.

You're on the verge of telling me if I don't live there I don't know what's going on. If you want to talk theory, you're verging on horseshoe theory right there.

The Violi case illustrated everything I said right there on the ground -- he wasn't recorded making those claims to a random drug dealer to hype his mob connections, he told a Bonanno member about the lay of the land after participating in his induction with a group of Bonanno Family members who sought him out somehow. The Bonanno group just happened to seek out the guy Todaro was preparing to promote as his representative in Ontario -- must be a strange coincidence if you think these are just disconnected drug dealers.

Not strange to me because it's what the mafia does in practice, no theory needed.

If we didn't have the Canada investigation, people would have stepped off the Buffalo arrests a lot quicker. People aren't wrong to wonder about the context those guys operate in given they can be connected to confirmed Buffalo Family figures by blood and marriage even though I'll be the first to say we can't draw conclusions from them.

[Newyorkempire]

Really? No brain? Eye Eye Eye… Why do I try!

No, why do I try?

Rico hasnt been brought in a long time. They arrested an Underboss, Captain and Soldiers in Philly last year and NO RICO. So there is more flawed logic on your part.

The hell you talking about? RICO Conspiracy was the first charge in the Mazzone superseding indictment.

You know what else it had that the Buffalo case doesn't? From the press release -

Like other LCN families, the Philadelphia LCN is operated through a defined hierarchical structure, including a Boss, an Underboss (Steven Mazzone), and Captains (Grande), who oversee “crews” consisting of “soldiers” and “associates.”

You know what else Philadelphia has had over the last 20 years that Buffalo hasn't? Ongoing cases.

Why are you even chiming in, you friggin' peasant? You've got the IQ of a lima bean and nothing worthwhile to add.

Now if we can just get him to admit Violi was the Under but I don't see that happening anytime soon.

First, I go with what the evidence shows. It shows that Todaro is the boss. But, as I said, so were D'Elia in NE Pennsylvania, Genovese in Pittsburgh, Iocobacci in Cleveland, Loscalzo in Tampa, Milano in LA, etc.

Second, I never denied Todaro was underboss once it came that he was. Initially, when he was indicted, it wasn't even clear yet if he was made. If you're going to weigh in, at least avoid revisionist history. You've done enough of that with the early years in New York (sorry, couldn't resist)

Boss and underboss of a non-existent Family with no hierarchy? The common denominator between criminal activity carried out by the boss's nephews and the son-in-law of a confirmed member is a corrupt federal agent? The "mafia" is just a term thrown around by the press?

That's what the evidence has shown so far, if you've been paying attention.

It's almost like the guys identified as mob associates who have familial ties to influential members are "connected" in some mysterious way. Good thing Cosa Nostra doesn't use blood and marriage to maintain itself, especially in WNY/Ontario. They must have been ordinary citizens who rallied around a corrupt federal agent they grew up with -- he was the real boss.

Todaro/Violi are a rebel faction of the Bongiovanni Crime Family.

You gotta be kidding me. This is no different than what we've seen in places like Pittsburgh or Kansas City where some individual members, associates, or relatives of members/associates are still engaged in crime after the family has become defunct. The members still retain their rank but they're small in number and there is no functioning hierarchy.

If you want to cast your lot with the "Buffalo is still alive crowd," go ahead, just be prepared to have your feet held to the fire later on.

the drug cases aganist these guys were kinda penny ante no? you really believe THe wing king really involved in a 100 pound weed operation

Bongiovanni was charged with providing protection over a decade for dealers thar distributed 1,000 kilos of marijuana and cocaine.

Peter Magaddino was just the president of a funeral parlor and spent most of his time arranging wakes for people. Vincent Scro ran a linen supply business and he's in his office every day -- FBI wiretaps show he actually talks mainly about the linen business and makes most of his income that way. They just coincidentally happen to be relatives of the boss.

Sammy Gravano met with Todaro and said he made him wade out into the ocean and face the water to talk briefly about NYC. He doesn't care about secrecy, he just loves the ocean.

Domenico Violi just dropped Todaro's name to a Bonanno member because a major Canadian drug dealer needs the credibility of a non-existent organization across the border. The Bonanno Family recognized his status and included him in a member induction because Violi is a nice guy and deserved it. The Bonanno Family is the Make-A-Wish Foundation and they wanted to make a kid's day -- his father died, you know?

I don't know, though, I'm starting to think there's something connecting these guys to each other but I wouldn't want to appear brainless. You'd truly have to be an agenda-driven idiot to consider the possibility that one of America's old mafia strongholds has a small Family left that includes associates related to Family leaders.

You're so stuck in the world of Cosa Nostra theory you can't even recognize the practical, real world facts on the ground.

In regards to Todaro who appears to be representative of a 30-45 man group, what incentive is there for him to close up shop?

First, what orifice did you pull that 30-45 number out of? Second, it's not matter of him closing shop. Time and attrition closed it for him.

Similar to the question of why would he stop making members, promoting people, etc.? What would the incentive be to stop? Legal issues for sure, but beyond that I'm not sure as long as he still had some of the necessary resources.

Well, his father and great-uncle were bosses of the Family. He grew up surrounded by Cosa Nostra leaders and members, you could say it was the entirety of his community at one point.

He went to college for hotel management and assisted his father's successful food and hotel businesses, yet joined Cosa Nostra and assisted his father with that too. Cosa Nostra is important to this guy... it's a core part of his identity as a man. I don't know the guy but does anyone think he would disagree with that if he was allowed to answer truthfully?

Again, it wasn't so much a matter of an intentional or formal decision to call it quits as the family (like many others) simply withered away through attrition. What part of 49 members in 1993, 23 members in 2006, and 12 members today is so hard to understand?

You know it's really hard to tell since the info was pieced together from different sources and not a singular entity such as a Gravano spilling the beans. But each source, when put together, points to the existence of a formal Buffalo Family- Boss, Under, Captains, Soldiers, Associates and activity, so labeling them "remnants" is like labeling Bellomo and what's going on with him today the remnants of the Chin Gigante Organization.

I'm sorry but this is so ignorant of the facts it's hard to even know how to respond? You obviously haven't looked at the cases (really the case) and the defendants closely. The difference between the Bellomo and the organization he heads, and Todaro's situation, is night and day.

And now the argument has drifted towards these low-level dealers being wannabes which I don't really get. No one is saying that the Mafia is a monolithic group of supercriminals. Quite the opposite in fact.

Who used the word "wannabes?" Maybe I missed it. I'm saying it means about as much to be an associate of a non-existent crime family as it does to be the boss of one.

And all that aside, the NY Bonannos recognize them, that should be enough even for the most fervent skeptic. Would there be any member who looked at this forum and the arguments against them made go running to Mancuso: "Noooo. Todaro doesn't even have a consigliere, and there's only one captain listed, we need to blacklist these buncha remnants." Answer is no. We as outsiders aren't seeing all that's there and stating that is a big difference from jumping to conclusions and implying Todaro is a criminal mastermind who evaded law enforcement.

Again, D'Elia was recognized. Didn't change the fact he was one of only a few living members left. Again, Cosa Nostra theory vs practical facts.

Well that's the ongoing argument. There isn't a family in Buffalo because there's no formal structure. Oh, Dom Violi claims he's underboss who ID'd Joe Toadaro as boss well he's just bragging. Cece Luppino is called a Capo by Canadian press well that's just hype. Where's the criminal activity? Oh those drug dealers don't matter they're just wannabes who happen to be related. We've reached a point where a making ceremony could recorded and someone would claim they were simply roleplaying and that it's nothing but fanboys buying into hype.

Call me crazy but I thought having a hierarchy was a fundamental part of organized crime. Rocco Luppino was identified as the captain in Hamilton (current crew size: 2). Cece Luppino was the one who was killed.

One question I have is, when has a member ever went to a member of another family and lied about his position? It will come back and there will be repercussions for such a lie. Violi likes to talk? No shit, for god sakes he had Soprano replica in his office. But for him to go to the Bonannos and lie about being Underboss? Doesn't happen. It would be like me stating Solai put me in charge of the forum, it would would one PM away from being debunked and me losing serious face in the eyes of our members.

Who said Violi was lying about being underboss? Now beating out 30 other members to become underboss, that's a different story.

Like I said, hes dead in the water. Then he gets mad and name calls when people dont believe him outright. A little baby, can you imagine having a conversation with this guy win person? Total nightmare. I feel bad for his wife or kids if he has any.

As far as Philly, I didnt see the term RICO used in any of the arrests albeit it says Federal Racketeering.

Like he knows if Luppino crew has 2 people.

Like he knows if there has been any making ceremonies in the last 2 decades.

Backpedaling at its finest with "Wise"guy. Now he believes that there is in fact an administration but it overseas nothing.

He compares Buffalo with Tampa and NE Pa. Hahaha. Thats his new sticking point. Loscalzo is comparable to Todaro as is Delia. This guy is wild.

[calabrianwatch]

Wow, I think those two articles are the first time we've seen any journalists claim that Dom Violi has "double-affiliation"... i.e. that he's also made in the Ndrangheta, right? They're claiming he's both made in the Buffalo family, as well as the Siderno Group.

The Violis must be trying to be trying to work closer with New York. I can't think of any other reason why they'd want to be made in Buffalo if they're already part of the Ndrangheta.

Also, given the recent court testimony out of Montreal that Mariachi and another guy (forget his name) are Ndrangheta, it seems as if the Ndrangheta is even bigger in Ontario and Quebec than I previously thought.

Wow I had like 10 pages to read and things got hooooot!

Aaaanyway. Stubbs, I missed the Mariachi (was that Mirarchi?) testimony, where would this be?
Ps, I think the idea of the double affiliation refers to the fact that violi is by family ‘ndrangheta (as you born into it and it doesn’t expire) but executively he is not…

[OcSleeper]

Aaaanyway. Stubbs, I missed the Mariachi (was that Mirarchi?) testimony, where would this be?
Ps, I think the idea of the double affiliation refers to the fact that violi is by family ‘ndrangheta (as you born into it and it doesn’t expire) but executively he is not…

viewtopic.php?p=126493#p126493

viewtopic.php?f=29&t=8751

[calabrianwatch]

Aaaanyway. Stubbs, I missed the Mariachi (was that Mirarchi?) testimony, where would this be?
Ps, I think the idea of the double affiliation refers to the fact that violi is by family ‘ndrangheta (as you born into it and it doesn’t expire) but executively he is not…

viewtopic.php?p=126493#p126493

viewtopic.php?f=29&t=8751

Thanks! I had missed the start of the Scarfo trial - which by the way should be spelled Scarfò…. In any case that he says he is ndrangheta (I doubt it) doesn’t mean Mirarchi is also… one thing is the Calabrian faction of mafia another is the ndrangheta, they don’t have to overlap…plus I would want to know which ndrangheta is scarfo talking about….

[Wiseguy]

It's not a black and white "Buffalo is still alive" vs. "Buffalo is defunct" argument, so I throw in with nobody. I'm not in the mafia or FBI, just on the side of discussing available info. We have different definitions of what constitutes a Cosa Nostra Family and I understand where you're coming from but have a different POV based on my research. That makes it impossible to find consensus and we don't need one anyway.

For example, I don't consider Rochester even at their peak to have been a Family because the Commission didn't. Same with Arizona. Yet the FBI included them on lists of Families because it was relevant to their investigation into OC. This is where the FBI's POV and the mafia's own POV differs. The Buffalo Family is recognized by the Bonanno Family and if Violi is right Todaro is also recognized by other NYC Families. He said this to another made member who could verify the info with his superiors if there was any question. The implication is that his superiors already recognized Todaro though given they followed time-honored regional protocol by including Violi in their Canadian visit and used him as a local point of contact for Morena.

NickleCity has WNY/Ontario as his "beat" and I can't speak to his local claims so I can't confirm/deny that stuff but as a researcher he is obsessive and has continually found amazing connections between some of the surnames, businesses, and history of Buffalo people past and present. Those are the kinds of details that historic mafia researchers also pull from and like with historic info it's not a smoking gun without a member source but I file his findings under "very interesting" without jumping to conclusions. These people are all deeply connected over generations and Buffalo Cosa Nostra has been all around them even if it's just traces/relationships now.

As I said, I understand the Christie argument that the mob itself is who should define what a family is. That's fine as far as it goes but doesn't tell the whole story. I'm simply saying you have to look at that formal approach within the context of the real-world state of things. Todaro may be the boss. Violi may be the underboss, having been approved by Todaro. Both may be recognized by New York. That's the formality. But as the available info (your words) demonstrates, Todaro is one of 9 living members in Western NY. Violi is one of 3 living members in Hamilton. That's the context.

Here's more context - Other than being the nominal "boss of the Buffalo Mafia," there's been no ties demonstrated between Todaro and the half dozen or so people picked up in the larger Bongiovanni investigation other than two happen to be his nephews. There's also been little to no evidence that most of those charged had any pertinent ties to each other other than some of them being labeled "mob associates" and some having mutual ties to Bongiovanni. Again, it's why we've seen individual indictments rather than a single RICO case. And it's why people have to fill in all the gaps with assumptions in order to make it out to be more than it has been shown to be.

Hell, since Rooster/NYEmpire brought it up, look at the recent Philadelphia indictment. This is relatively small family, with only a faction of it being charged, but the government still brought the classic RICO case showing the hierarchy and interaction between the underboss, captain, 2 soldiers, and 11 associates involved. Labels or ranks aside, what actual criminal connection does Todaro (the boss) have to do with those recently charged in Buffalo? What does Violi (the underboss) or Rocco Luppino (a captain) up in Hamilton have to do with any of them? This is where we see huge holes that people are forced to fill in with "very interesting" assumptions and speculation. Hell, even the Sarno case in Chicago, while avoiding any specific mention of terms like "Mafia," "Mob," "Cosa Nostra," or "Outfit," was still a RICO case charging the 7 defendants together.

Lastly, contrary to what you said above, people obviously have jumped to conclusions about Buffalo. If they want to call a family because they're "recognized," so be it. But let's not pretend it's something it's not. The "available evidence" shows there's nothing more left of the mob in Buffalo than there is in Detroit or Kansas City.

Like I said, hes dead in the water. Then he gets mad and name calls when people dont believe him outright. A little baby, can you imagine having a conversation with this guy win person? Total nightmare. I feel bad for his wife or kids if he has any.

As far as Philly, I didnt see the term RICO used in any of the arrests albeit it says Federal Racketeering.

Like he knows if Luppino crew has 2 people.

Like he knows if there has been any making ceremonies in the last 2 decades.

Backpedaling at its finest with "Wise"guy. Now he believes that there is in fact an administration but it overseas nothing.

He compares Buffalo with Tampa and NE Pa. Hahaha. Thats his new sticking point. Loscalzo is comparable to Todaro as is Delia. This guy is wild.

I'm irritated because at this point you're doing nothing but trolling. At least Nickle is still arguing his point. You come here and run your mouth but aren't even familiar with the facts, i.e. Philadelphia's RICO case.

Below is the indictment. On the first page at the top, under violations, - 18 U.S.C. S 1962(d) (RICO conspiracy). On the second page, 10 of the 15 defendants charged with Racketeering Conspiracy.

On the following pages you see the same "Structure," "Purposes of the Enterprise," and "Means and Methods of the Enterprise" breakdown that we see in most RICO indictments against LCN.

Beyond just the allegations of it being the "Philadelphia LCN," and identifying the ranks of individuals, the government actually outlines the formal hierarchy and practical working connections between the defendants. It's all layed out there for everyone to see. Not a bunch of small cases against individuals who have tenuous connections to each other, that have to get propped up with "Mafia" and "Italian Organized Crime" labels or people like you filling in the blanks.

https://www.justice.gov/opa/press-relea ... 1/download

[Newyorkempire]

Fair about the RICO in Philly. Nonetheless, my points remain.

Keep fighting for your cause though "Wise"guy. Your tenacity is impressive albeit a form of psychosis.

[B.]

The Philly investigation involved a made member informing and recording meetings with members, even an induction ceremony. That is going to produce a much different case.

In terms of membership, the language to use is "identified members". We only know who has been publicly identified. The Canadian investigation used a member informant whose work revealed details that would have been outright dismissed by skeptics a week earlier.

[Wiseguy]

The Philly investigation involved a made member informing and recording meetings with members, even an induction ceremony. That is going to produce a much different case.

In terms of membership, the language to use is "identified members". We only know who has been publicly identified. The Canadian investigation used a member informant whose work revealed details that would have been outright dismissed by skeptics a week earlier.

I get your point, again, as far as it goes. But the more time goes by, the less likely these unidentified members remain so. If they aren't eventually identified, they likely don't exist. I don't think it's necessarily out of the realm of possibility - though not probable - that there are some flying under the radar, theoretically speaking. However, considering the known membership is 25% of what it was 30 years ago, any unknown members are likely not in significant numbers.

[B.]

We're still discovering unidentified members in NYC past and present where there's been extensive cooperation and multiple FBI teams dedicated to them for decades. Unless a member or bug confirms it, they're extremely limited as to who can be included on their confirmed lists, which are the ones used publicly.

The FBI well might have a suspected members list for Buffalo, as they do for all Families. They don't typically publish that info. Would be interesting to know why Bongiovanni was told Masecchia might be a member -- telling him Masecchia was a drug dealer and associate should be enough to discourage Bongiovanni but they felt the need to bring up possible membership. Whether that was one LE figure's opinion or pulled from a suspected member report isn't my call, but they used it to make their point to Bongiovanni.

They said this guy's father-in-law was a confirmed member and he's an associate and possible member. Framing the point around that tells us his involvement with Cosa Nostra was of great concern beyond criminal activity alone. They might not have the resources (member CI or bug) to confirm but that's available info and it's intetesting.