Buffalo/Ontario Mob Acitivity

[Newyorkempire]

So again. If we use his metrics it proves nothing. Lol. This is wild.

[Newyorkempire]

Your logic is flawed… although there is a slight chance you are right despite this flaw. To fix the flaw in your logic I only ask what a good logistician or philosopher would ask simply say lack of evidence suggests the Buffalo family could be very small and may not exist. This alone would make you much more bearable on these boards and lend credibility to your argument.

Instead of meandering into the theoretical (I realize your narrative rests on the theoretical), and appealing to "logisticians or philosophers," why don't you just look at the demonstrable facts? In city after city, family after family, indictments have reflected the relative mob activity there. You can especially see this over an extended period of time.

Before taking the prosecutor's allegations at face value (this is something I'm often accused of doing), ask yourself, have the general allegations about the "Mafia" or "Italian Organized Crime" in Buffalo actually been substantiated by the specific charges in the case? Do the allegations account for or explain the relative lack of activity for decades now? Do they account for or explain how such a Mafia family functions with so few members, most of which are old and inactive?

Here is what we’ve got:

Mob Associates
Militello
Serio
Masecchia
Bella

Possible Made Man
Masecchia (If yes, when did it happen? Could there have been more who were made? Could there have been other making ceremonies?

Boss
Todaro (Jr)

Add what we learned about Canada in 2017
Underboss
Violi (Made in 2015? Promoted early 2017?)

Capo
Rocco Luppino

Soldier
Nat Luppino
Joe Violi given option to be made in Buffalo or Bonanno

LOL. That's more than the prosecutor has done, I'll give you that. But does this look like a formally structured, cohesive LCN family to you or simply the scattered remnants of a family that once was?

So we have a making ceremony that we didn’t know about, yet you insist there could not be other making ceremonies and conclude that Mesecchia can’t be made a made man . Here are the logical inconsistencies: 1. We know there was a making ceremony we didn't know about... yet you assume and insist there can be no other making ceremonies that we don't know about. Why this insistence? To promote your narrative. This is dishonest. Logic says if there is one making ceremony we don't know, there could have been others. 2. I think you are using the lack of evidence fallacy again... We haven't had any Buffalo mob activity, so there couldn't have been a making ceremony. Am I wrong?

Theoretically - which you live and die on - a lot of things are possible. We could "What if?" until the end of time. Outside of known, demonstrable facts, I next go with what what is most probable as demonstrated by historical precedent, general trends, etc.

Using your example above, yes, Violi was made in a ceremony that nobody knew about at the time. And yes, theoretically, if the family could hold one ceremony, it could hold others. But, given historical precedent and general trends as shown in the Buffalo family itself, as well as LCN families in general, is it more probable that his ceremony was an anomaly? That he was a unique and special case, particularly given his pedigree? And most probably not indicative of other new members being made, at least in significant numbers?

And even if we, for the sake of argument, assume there have been more than one ceremony in recent years, how probable is it that has even come close to replacing all those who have died off? We've gone from 49 identified members in 1993 to 23 identified members in 2006 to about a dozen identified members today. That's called a trend. Even if there are some made guys flying under the radar, having been made in ceremonies that we don't know about, how probable is it that it's in sufficient numbers to really affect this trend? Why is it that, for all the allegations about the Mafia or Italian Organized Crime in Buffalo, the best prosecutors have come up with in terms of members not previously identified is a high school teacher-by-day/weed-dealer-by-night who "may be a made member?" Doesn't that tell you something?

How do you know there is no other evidence? Are you privy to discovery in this case? Have you seen the sealed documents? Maybe you’re right or maybe what is sealed and more will come out in court….That is being honest. Once again the absence of evidence fallacy in your logic.

I'm waiting for it but not holding my breath. Whatever their case has, I think we've seen it. They have plenty of evidence to put these guys away for their crimes. But as far as proving the existence of a RICO conspiracy we've seen so often with actually active Mafia families, nope. No, I don't have a crystal ball. But I understand general trends when it comes to the mob. It's like the sun. After seeing it come up day after day, you start to trust it.

And you know this how? Point me to the court documents in this case. Or are you using the absence of evidence fallacy as your reason again.

You mean besides the fact there aren't even enough active members to staff an average-sized crew? Because what we've seen of the evidence so far shows us anything but that. I realize you're waiting for some great reveal in court - the "What if?" - but it just comes across as wishful thinking that ignores the larger picture.

Here is a question for you: Could there be a reason the Feds framed this as a mafia case instead of a criminal enterprise case? Is there the possibility or even likelihood they have more information than our limited knowledge. I’d say that is a possibility, so I won’t question the way they are framing it until more information comes out. I ask that you do the same.

Well first, if they really wanted to frame it as a Mafia case, they would have charged all of them together in an actual RICO case. That they didn't (or couldn't), but charged them separately with many of the ties connecting them being circumstantial, suggests something.

I'm the first to say that law enforcement knows more than the general public, including mob watchers. I say this because they prove it repeatedly in their indictments. But, so far, the Western District Attorney's Office has not proven there actually is still a functioning Mafia family in Buffalo. They have alleged it - despite all the evidence and several former law enforcement statements to the contrary - but they have yet to really show these allegations have any basis in reality.

I know, I know...What if?

Rico hasnt been brought in a long time. They arrested an Underboss, Captain and Soldiers in Philly last year and NO RICO. So there is more flawed logic on your part.

The Feds have alleged it but their allegations are not based in reality...now he is demeaning the dame organization he has relied on his whole posting career. Desperation at its finest

[Angelo Santino]

345 pages, lol. Go back to page 1 and its the same argument. But I did see Wiseguy admit that Todaro was and is the boss within the last few pages, which is progress.

[Newyorkempire]

345 pages, lol. Go back to page 1 and its the same argument. But I did see Wiseguy admit that Todaro was and is the boss within the last few pages, which is progress.

Correction...he has admitted he is the Ceremonial - no ceremony Boss, nominally speaking and knows what day to day schedule consists of and that he appoints underbosses of a non existent family because he is bored with being a restaurateur making millions.

[Angelo Santino]

345 pages, lol. Go back to page 1 and its the same argument. But I did see Wiseguy admit that Todaro was and is the boss within the last few pages, which is progress.

Correction...he has admitted he is the Ceremonial - no ceremony Boss, nominally speaking and knows what day to day schedule consists of and that he appoints underbosses of a non existent family because he is bored with being a restaurateur making millions.

Now if we can just get him to admit Violi was the Under but I don't see that happening anytime soon.

[B.]

Boss and underboss of a non-existent Family with no hierarchy? The common denominator between criminal activity carried out by the boss's nephews and the son-in-law of a confirmed member is a corrupt federal agent? The "mafia" is just a term thrown around by the press?

If Todaro ever goes to trial, Wiseguy should be his lawyer.

[B.]

Those above seem to have their own individual, albeit interconnected to some degree, criminal enterprises. Some have been identified associates of a mob family, albeit one that no longer exists. And some have familial ties to current or deceased Buffalo LCN members.

It's almost like the guys identified as mob associates who have familial ties to influential members are "connected" in some mysterious way. Good thing Cosa Nostra doesn't use blood and marriage to maintain itself, especially in WNY/Ontario. They must have been ordinary citizens who rallied around a corrupt federal agent they grew up with -- he was the real boss.

Todaro/Violi are a rebel faction of the Bongiovanni Crime Family.

[Newyorkempire]

345 pages, lol. Go back to page 1 and its the same argument. But I did see Wiseguy admit that Todaro was and is the boss within the last few pages, which is progress.

Correction...he has admitted he is the Ceremonial - no ceremony Boss, nominally speaking and knows what day to day schedule consists of and that he appoints underbosses of a non existent family because he is bored with being a restaurateur making millions.

Now if we can just get him to admit Violi was the Under but I don't see that happening anytime soon.

Never, Violi told him to deny it through and through. He will go on rants about Peter Milano, William Delia, Mickey Mouse, Superman, Donald Duck and any other apples to oranges narrative he can think of.

[Stroccos]

Boss and underboss of a non-existent Family with no hierarchy? The common denominator between criminal activity carried out by the boss's nephews and the son-in-law of a confirmed member is a corrupt federal agent? The "mafia" is just a term thrown around by the press?

If Todaro ever goes to trial, Wiseguy should be his lawyer.

the drug cases aganist these guys were kinda penny ante no? you really believe THe wing king really involved in a 100 pound weed operation

[Newyorkempire]

Those above seem to have their own individual, albeit interconnected to some degree, criminal enterprises. Some have been identified associates of a mob family, albeit one that no longer exists. And some have familial ties to current or deceased Buffalo LCN members.

It's almost like the guys identified as mob associates who have familial ties to influential members are "connected" in some mysterious way. Good thing Cosa Nostra doesn't use blood and marriage to maintain itself, especially in WNY/Ontario. They must have been ordinary citizens who rallied around a corrupt federal agent they grew up with -- he was the real boss.

Todaro/Violi are a rebel faction of the Bongiovanni Crime Family.

Lol. Totally makes sense

[Stroccos]

Those above seem to have their own individual, albeit interconnected to some degree, criminal enterprises. Some have been identified associates of a mob family, albeit one that no longer exists. And some have familial ties to current or deceased Buffalo LCN members.

It's almost like the guys identified as mob associates who have familial ties to influential members are "connected" in some mysterious way. Good thing Cosa Nostra doesn't use blood and marriage to maintain itself, especially in WNY/Ontario. They must have been ordinary citizens who rallied around a corrupt federal agent they grew up with -- he was the real boss.

Todaro/Violi are a rebel faction of the Bongiovanni Crime Family.

yeah u never thought they were wannabes ? Bongiovanni is going down for what a few thousands he got ,

[Newyorkempire]

Those above seem to have their own individual, albeit interconnected to some degree, criminal enterprises. Some have been identified associates of a mob family, albeit one that no longer exists. And some have familial ties to current or deceased Buffalo LCN members.

It's almost like the guys identified as mob associates who have familial ties to influential members are "connected" in some mysterious way. Good thing Cosa Nostra doesn't use blood and marriage to maintain itself, especially in WNY/Ontario. They must have been ordinary citizens who rallied around a corrupt federal agent they grew up with -- he was the real boss.

Todaro/Violi are a rebel faction of the Bongiovanni Crime Family.

yeah u never thought they were wannabes ? Bongiovanni is going down for what a few thousands he got ,

A few thousand? It was a few hundred thousand

[Newyorkempire]

Boss and underboss of a non-existent Family with no hierarchy? The common denominator between criminal activity carried out by the boss's nephews and the son-in-law of a confirmed member is a corrupt federal agent? The "mafia" is just a term thrown around by the press?

If Todaro ever goes to trial, Wiseguy should be his lawyer.

the drug cases aganist these guys were kinda penny ante no? you really believe THe wing king really involved in a 100 pound weed operation

It was a matter of trafficking tons and tons of marijuana over 20 years.

[Stroccos]

Those above seem to have their own individual, albeit interconnected to some degree, criminal enterprises. Some have been identified associates of a mob family, albeit one that no longer exists. And some have familial ties to current or deceased Buffalo LCN members.

It's almost like the guys identified as mob associates who have familial ties to influential members are "connected" in some mysterious way. Good thing Cosa Nostra doesn't use blood and marriage to maintain itself, especially in WNY/Ontario. They must have been ordinary citizens who rallied around a corrupt federal agent they grew up with -- he was the real boss.

Todaro/Violi are a rebel faction of the Bongiovanni Crime Family.

yeah u never thought they were wannabes ? Bongiovanni is going down for what a few thousands he got ,

A few thousand? It was a few hundred thousand

i meant few k a month they claimed it was like 250k over nine years

[Newyorkempire]

Those above seem to have their own individual, albeit interconnected to some degree, criminal enterprises. Some have been identified associates of a mob family, albeit one that no longer exists. And some have familial ties to current or deceased Buffalo LCN members.

It's almost like the guys identified as mob associates who have familial ties to influential members are "connected" in some mysterious way. Good thing Cosa Nostra doesn't use blood and marriage to maintain itself, especially in WNY/Ontario. They must have been ordinary citizens who rallied around a corrupt federal agent they grew up with -- he was the real boss.

Todaro/Violi are a rebel faction of the Bongiovanni Crime Family.

yeah u never thought they were wannabes ? Bongiovanni is going down for what a few thousands he got ,

A few thousand? It was a few hundred thousand

i meant few k a month they claimed it was like 250k over nine years

Regardless of how often he received whatever payment. 250 is not some minor amount in terms of the region. In NYC it may equate to payoff of a million over the same time. 250 is what is claimed by the Feds, could be more that they cant prove.