General Chicago Outfit Info Dumping Ground

[funkster]

In the interest of stimulating conversation, I'm going to share some personal anecdotes on the current outfit. Take it for it is, I have nothing to prove here, just thought it may be interesting to share a perspective.

My grandfather is 90 years old, 1st generation Italian American, grew up around Grand Ave, and currently still resides in his home in Elmwood Park, where he has lived for the past 60 years. Refuses to move out. He has breakfast every Sunday with a group of "old timers"...all Italians, and has always been socially connected to outfit figures. He was the one who stimulated my interest in the outfit, and eventually led me to sites like this one. He still has a bookie, if that helps you visualize the kind of guy we are talking about. Never was an outfit guy, but knew D'Amico, Joey Lombardo, and a few others socially. I pick his brain all the time, mostly on older stuff. Calls them "mustaches" when referring to outfit guys.

His take on the current outfit is that they are "mostly legit", but they are still around. Says the real outfit guys all own several businesses like restaurants, construction companies, car washes, real estate, insurance companies, etc. The young guys and associates are the ones directly doing the remaining illegal work like bookmaking, loan sharking, credit card scams, extortion, etc. The "legit" made guys finance much of it, and get kicked up to. He even calls it a "Wop Business Club" jokingly. They all lend money to each other, invest in businesses, etc. Says there will always be an outfit because there are always at least some young guys who want to make a quick buck.

Essentially it seems to me that there is a small core group of made men left, who on the surface operate legit biz, but still profit from and finance illegal activities. The young guys do most of that type of activity and strive to get to the level of the older made guys. Violence seems to be way less common, but of course I'm sure there are pockets still capable.

Thanks. Interesting take from your granddad. This is basically my opinion too, and I think this is most likely the current state of the Outfit. Still a small formal structure left, but most of the criminal activity is carried out by associates operating under the aegis of the made members who exist as a mostly business racketeering oriented clique and who retain important personal connections in local government, public services, unions, and legit businesses. As we've seen with the recent Chicago-area gambling busts, the made guys are not involved directly in the operations of the rackets, though we see with Paloian apparently kicking up to Sarno that they are probably receiving their cut. Most likely these associates still have some incentive to operate under the Outfit even today, whether it's because the organization is still able to provide some degree of influence over government officials or police (mainly in the suburbs), or simply because the Outfit retains a "brand" with influence among gamblers and hustlers in specific Chicagoland communities and networks.

Worth noting that Frank Cullotta also stated that made guys were called "mustaches".

It my educated guess that they are still making guys every once in a while. I would not be surprised if it was a situation where once you are made, you are essentially a partner in the "club", getting a small piece of everyone's businesses. Could be one of the reasons they are so careful about who gets brought in.

I think this is an important point. My take is that they have always operated like this. Being made gave one a degree of protection from summary execution, as well as access to the family admin as a means to mediate disputes. But I think it also enabled one to engage as a partner with one's capo and/or members of the admin in the operation of racket enterprises. Whereas associates were essentially "workers" employed by the made guy that they belonged to, members were partners and something like shareholders or franchisees.

Having lived in EP for most of his life, he was an acquaintance of DIfronzo as well. Says that he was the #1 boss from the early 90's through early 2010's before the Alzheimer's crippled him. Says basically everyone who is the know in the area was aware of that and that is was un-questioned.

Interesting take. I think this is supported by DiFronzo's apparent involvement in the Zizzo thing before he was hit. Questions remain as to whether DiFronzo was a "chairman" a la Ricca and Accardo, or if he was official boss and other guys were formally just acting, with DiFronzo retaining the title but largely removed from active involvement in the family apart from major decisions like the Zizzo beef.

I mean this isn't really all that far off from your general LCN structure to begin with, the associates always did the legwork...but now it seems made guys could be reaching emeritus status and a made guy in the outfit was always a bit more exclusive than a guy in NY. I've said it a million times, but I will always go back to what Sammy said that Paul Castellano told him...there are gangsters and racketeers. The upper echelon of the outfit right now would likely be what i'd consider racketeers. Tons of money in legit business, some money coming to them from illegal sources, and utilizing their connections.

[Patrickgold]

In the interest of stimulating conversation, I'm going to share some personal anecdotes on the current outfit. Take it for it is, I have nothing to prove here, just thought it may be interesting to share a perspective.

My grandfather is 90 years old, 1st generation Italian American, grew up around Grand Ave, and currently still resides in his home in Elmwood Park, where he has lived for the past 60 years. Refuses to move out. He has breakfast every Sunday with a group of "old timers"...all Italians, and has always been socially connected to outfit figures. He was the one who stimulated my interest in the outfit, and eventually led me to sites like this one. He still has a bookie, if that helps you visualize the kind of guy we are talking about. Never was an outfit guy, but knew D'Amico, Joey Lombardo, and a few others socially. I pick his brain all the time, mostly on older stuff. Calls them "mustaches" when referring to outfit guys.

His take on the current outfit is that they are "mostly legit", but they are still around. Says the real outfit guys all own several businesses like restaurants, construction companies, car washes, real estate, insurance companies, etc. The young guys and associates are the ones directly doing the remaining illegal work like bookmaking, loan sharking, credit card scams, extortion, etc. The "legit" made guys finance much of it, and get kicked up to. He even calls it a "Wop Business Club" jokingly. They all lend money to each other, invest in businesses, etc. Says there will always be an outfit because there are always at least some young guys who want to make a quick buck.

Essentially it seems to me that there is a small core group of made men left, who on the surface operate legit biz, but still profit from and finance illegal activities. The young guys do most of that type of activity and strive to get to the level of the older made guys. Violence seems to be way less common, but of course I'm sure there are pockets still capable.

Thanks. Interesting take from your granddad. This is basically my opinion too, and I think this is most likely the current state of the Outfit. Still a small formal structure left, but most of the criminal activity is carried out by associates operating under the aegis of the made members who exist as a mostly business racketeering oriented clique and who retain important personal connections in local government, public services, unions, and legit businesses. As we've seen with the recent Chicago-area gambling busts, the made guys are not involved directly in the operations of the rackets, though we see with Paloian apparently kicking up to Sarno that they are probably receiving their cut. Most likely these associates still have some incentive to operate under the Outfit even today, whether it's because the organization is still able to provide some degree of influence over government officials or police (mainly in the suburbs), or simply because the Outfit retains a "brand" with influence among gamblers and hustlers in specific Chicagoland communities and networks.

Worth noting that Frank Cullotta also stated that made guys were called "mustaches".

It my educated guess that they are still making guys every once in a while. I would not be surprised if it was a situation where once you are made, you are essentially a partner in the "club", getting a small piece of everyone's businesses. Could be one of the reasons they are so careful about who gets brought in.

I think this is an important point. My take is that they have always operated like this. Being made gave one a degree of protection from summary execution, as well as access to the family admin as a means to mediate disputes. But I think it also enabled one to engage as a partner with one's capo and/or members of the admin in the operation of racket enterprises. Whereas associates were essentially "workers" employed by the made guy that they belonged to, members were partners and something like shareholders or franchisees.

Having lived in EP for most of his life, he was an acquaintance of DIfronzo as well. Says that he was the #1 boss from the early 90's through early 2010's before the Alzheimer's crippled him. Says basically everyone who is the know in the area was aware of that and that is was un-questioned.

Interesting take. I think this is supported by DiFronzo's apparent involvement in the Zizzo thing before he was hit. Questions remain as to whether DiFronzo was a "chairman" a la Ricca and Accardo, or if he was official boss and other guys were formally just acting, with DiFronzo retaining the title but largely removed from active involvement in the family apart from major decisions like the Zizzo beef.

I mean this isn't really all that far off from your general LCN structure to begin with, the associates always did the legwork...but now it seems made guys could be reaching emeritus status and a made guy in the outfit was always a bit more exclusive than a guy in NY. I've said it a million times, but I will always go back to what Sammy said that Paul Castellano told him...there are gangsters and racketeers. The upper echelon of the outfit right now would likely be what i'd consider racketeers. Tons of money in legit business, some money coming to them from illegal sources, and utilizing their connections.

Chicago is notorious for making members later in their life and career. Look at Milwaukee Phil, DeLaurentis, Sarno, Spilotro. Usually when you get made it is to go into a leadership position. Obviously that is not always the case. Look at Nick C. He never made it to one

[SolarSolano]

In the interest of stimulating conversation, I'm going to share some personal anecdotes on the current outfit. Take it for it is, I have nothing to prove here, just thought it may be interesting to share a perspective.

My grandfather is 90 years old, 1st generation Italian American, grew up around Grand Ave, and currently still resides in his home in Elmwood Park, where he has lived for the past 60 years. Refuses to move out. He has breakfast every Sunday with a group of "old timers"...all Italians, and has always been socially connected to outfit figures. He was the one who stimulated my interest in the outfit, and eventually led me to sites like this one. He still has a bookie, if that helps you visualize the kind of guy we are talking about. Never was an outfit guy, but knew D'Amico, Joey Lombardo, and a few others socially. I pick his brain all the time, mostly on older stuff. Calls them "mustaches" when referring to outfit guys.

His take on the current outfit is that they are "mostly legit", but they are still around. Says the real outfit guys all own several businesses like restaurants, construction companies, car washes, real estate, insurance companies, etc. The young guys and associates are the ones directly doing the remaining illegal work like bookmaking, loan sharking, credit card scams, extortion, etc. The "legit" made guys finance much of it, and get kicked up to. He even calls it a "Wop Business Club" jokingly. They all lend money to each other, invest in businesses, etc. Says there will always be an outfit because there are always at least some young guys who want to make a quick buck.

Essentially it seems to me that there is a small core group of made men left, who on the surface operate legit biz, but still profit from and finance illegal activities. The young guys do most of that type of activity and strive to get to the level of the older made guys. Violence seems to be way less common, but of course I'm sure there are pockets still capable.

Thanks. Interesting take from your granddad. This is basically my opinion too, and I think this is most likely the current state of the Outfit. Still a small formal structure left, but most of the criminal activity is carried out by associates operating under the aegis of the made members who exist as a mostly business racketeering oriented clique and who retain important personal connections in local government, public services, unions, and legit businesses. As we've seen with the recent Chicago-area gambling busts, the made guys are not involved directly in the operations of the rackets, though we see with Paloian apparently kicking up to Sarno that they are probably receiving their cut. Most likely these associates still have some incentive to operate under the Outfit even today, whether it's because the organization is still able to provide some degree of influence over government officials or police (mainly in the suburbs), or simply because the Outfit retains a "brand" with influence among gamblers and hustlers in specific Chicagoland communities and networks.

Worth noting that Frank Cullotta also stated that made guys were called "mustaches".

It my educated guess that they are still making guys every once in a while. I would not be surprised if it was a situation where once you are made, you are essentially a partner in the "club", getting a small piece of everyone's businesses. Could be one of the reasons they are so careful about who gets brought in.

I think this is an important point. My take is that they have always operated like this. Being made gave one a degree of protection from summary execution, as well as access to the family admin as a means to mediate disputes. But I think it also enabled one to engage as a partner with one's capo and/or members of the admin in the operation of racket enterprises. Whereas associates were essentially "workers" employed by the made guy that they belonged to, members were partners and something like shareholders or franchisees.

Having lived in EP for most of his life, he was an acquaintance of DIfronzo as well. Says that he was the #1 boss from the early 90's through early 2010's before the Alzheimer's crippled him. Says basically everyone who is the know in the area was aware of that and that is was un-questioned.

Interesting take. I think this is supported by DiFronzo's apparent involvement in the Zizzo thing before he was hit. Questions remain as to whether DiFronzo was a "chairman" a la Ricca and Accardo, or if he was official boss and other guys were formally just acting, with DiFronzo retaining the title but largely removed from active involvement in the family apart from major decisions like the Zizzo beef.

I mean this isn't really all that far off from your general LCN structure to begin with, the associates always did the legwork...but now it seems made guys could be reaching emeritus status and a made guy in the outfit was always a bit more exclusive than a guy in NY. I've said it a million times, but I will always go back to what Sammy said that Paul Castellano told him...there are gangsters and racketeers. The upper echelon of the outfit right now would likely be what i'd consider racketeers. Tons of money in legit business, some money coming to them from illegal sources, and utilizing their connections.

Chicago is notorious for making members later in their life and career. Look at Milwaukee Phil, DeLaurentis, Sarno, Spilotro. Usually when you get made it is to go into a leadership position. Obviously that is not always the case. Look at Nick C. He never made it to one

Speaking of gangsters vs. racketeers - was there ever real confirmation that Bobby Panozzo was made? Or that he was just close to Vena and part of his crew? I'm always curious what some of the older 'gangsters' are doing these days - I think certain guys like Abbinanti and Gary Gagliano have invested wisely while others like Fratto are just jokes and I wonder if some of these guys have been ejected from the club or shelved.

I agree with all of this and I can say that while they may not be stealing pensions from labor unions these days, they have all of their friends and relatives in high places at these locals working exclusively with their companies - and that is not necessarily always illegal.

[Snakes]

Spilotro was actually supposed to have been made fairly young. He was certainly made by the time he went to Vegas in his mid-30s.

Only evidence I've seen that Panozzo was made was Jeff Hollingshead saying he thought he was.

[PolackTony]

Spilotro was actually supposed to have been made fairly young. He was certainly made by the time he went to Vegas in his mid-30s.

Only evidence I've seen that Panozzo was made was Jeff Hollingshead saying he thought he was.

Spilotro definitely seems to have been one of the younger made guys at least in the more modern history of the Outfit.

I wonder about Bobby P as well. He's only half-Ital in the first place if that matters today still. One would think that if the Feds had good reason to think he was made he would've been named at such in his indictments. But if they no longer have a CI in the organization who is able to confirm membership, they may not be able to establish membership for younger guys like that even when it's suspected. I personally lean towards Panozzo not being made, but I wouldn't be completely shocked if he was. Another one that I really wonder about is Spina.

[Antiliar]

Maybe there was some validation to when the Chicago Crime Commission said in the late 90s that the Outfit got rid of the different crews and made them into 3: North, South and West. Andriacca was listed as North, Monteleone as South and Centraccio as West.

I think this setup was before Monteleone became the overall Outfit boss. Toots Caruso seems to have been made capo of 26th Street at a certain point before it was folded into Cicero, Michael Spano in charge of Cicero, and John Matassa was allegedly capo of the North Side for a little while before it was folded into Elmwood Park.

[Snakes]

Spilotro was actually supposed to have been made fairly young. He was certainly made by the time he went to Vegas in his mid-30s.

Only evidence I've seen that Panozzo was made was Jeff Hollingshead saying he thought he was.

Spilotro definitely seems to have been one of the younger made guys at least in the more modern history of the Outfit.

I wonder about Bobby P as well. He's only half-Ital in the first place if that matters today still. One would think that if the Feds had good reason to think he was made he would've been named at such in his indictments. But if they no longer have a CI in the organization who is able to confirm membership, they may not be able to establish membership for younger guys like that even when it's suspected. I personally lean towards Panozzo not being made, but I wouldn't be completely shocked if he was. Another one that I really wonder about is Spina.

I don't think Panozzo is made but the Outfit has only had one indictment that identified members as made and that was Family Secrets, so it isn't like this is something that the FBI makes it a point to mention.

[Patrickgold]

Spilotro was actually supposed to have been made fairly young. He was certainly made by the time he went to Vegas in his mid-30s.

Only evidence I've seen that Panozzo was made was Jeff Hollingshead saying he thought he was.

Spilotro definitely seems to have been one of the younger made guys at least in the more modern history of the Outfit.

I wonder about Bobby P as well. He's only half-Ital in the first place if that matters today still. One would think that if the Feds had good reason to think he was made he would've been named at such in his indictments. But if they no longer have a CI in the organization who is able to confirm membership, they may not be able to establish membership for younger guys like that even when it's suspected. I personally lean towards Panozzo not being made, but I wouldn't be completely shocked if he was. Another one that I really wonder about is Spina.

I’m sorry I should have specified. I meant Victor Spilotro who was made in 1988. He was in his mid 50s when he was made. He ended up dying 8 years later in a nursing home in West Virginia I think

[PolackTony]

Spilotro was actually supposed to have been made fairly young. He was certainly made by the time he went to Vegas in his mid-30s.

Only evidence I've seen that Panozzo was made was Jeff Hollingshead saying he thought he was.

Spilotro definitely seems to have been one of the younger made guys at least in the more modern history of the Outfit.

I wonder about Bobby P as well. He's only half-Ital in the first place if that matters today still. One would think that if the Feds had good reason to think he was made he would've been named at such in his indictments. But if they no longer have a CI in the organization who is able to confirm membership, they may not be able to establish membership for younger guys like that even when it's suspected. I personally lean towards Panozzo not being made, but I wouldn't be completely shocked if he was. Another one that I really wonder about is Spina.

I don't think Panozzo is made but the Outfit has only had one indictment that identified members as made and that was Family Secrets, so it isn't like this is something that the FBI makes it a point to mention.

Guys like Spano and Sarno were never identified as members in their indictments? What about at trial?

[Tonyd621]

What about this new gangster report article? Possibly Chicago getting to a guy in witsec to hit him in 2009? Any truth to that?

[Snakes]

What about this new gangster report article? Possibly Chicago getting to a guy in witsec to hit him in 2009? Any truth to that?

LaValley was a scumbag. Seems like the type of guy who makes enemies everywhere he goes, witsec or not.

[SolarSolano]

What about this new gangster report article? Possibly Chicago getting to a guy in witsec to hit him in 2009? Any truth to that?

LaValley was a scumbag. Seems like the type of guy who makes enemies everywhere he goes, witsec or not.

Jim LaValley the golf course thug. I swear the only person I've ever heard say LaValley was dead was Joe Fosco years ago and he could never provide proof. From my view, the Outfit always hard larger targets in witsec - BJ Jahoda put the entire Cicero crew in prison and remained close to Illinois all these years later.

[Tonyd621]

What about this new gangster report article? Possibly Chicago getting to a guy in witsec to hit him in 2009? Any truth to that?

LaValley was a scumbag. Seems like the type of guy who makes enemies everywhere he goes, witsec or not.

Jim LaValley the golf course thug. I swear the only person I've ever heard say LaValley was dead was Joe Fosco years ago and he could never provide proof. From my view, the Outfit always hard larger targets in witsec - BJ Jahoda put the entire Cicero crew in prison and remained close to Illinois all these years later.

It's an article by Burnstein posted in his most recent gangsterreport.com site saying he was killed on a golf course in 2009. I would be surprised they can get to somebody in witsec. I know about the whole Ambrose case but they never got to anybody.

[SolarSolano]

What about this new gangster report article? Possibly Chicago getting to a guy in witsec to hit him in 2009? Any truth to that?

LaValley was a scumbag. Seems like the type of guy who makes enemies everywhere he goes, witsec or not.

Jim LaValley the golf course thug. I swear the only person I've ever heard say LaValley was dead was Joe Fosco years ago and he could never provide proof. From my view, the Outfit always hard larger targets in witsec - BJ Jahoda put the entire Cicero crew in prison and remained close to Illinois all these years later.

It's an article by Burnstein posted in his most recent gangsterreport.com site saying he was killed on a golf course in 2009. I would be surprised they can get to somebody in witsec. I know about the whole Ambrose case but they never got to anybody.

They did get to people in WitSec like Bombacino back in the old days - and I think they are the only family to have done that actually. I was surprised they got as close as they did to Ambrose - but I have a hard time believing someone killed LaValley. Sometimes these guys are just scumbags and agree with Snakes he likely made enemies everywhere - but you never know. Frankly I'm just not entirely sure LaValley was killed - Burnstein cites the Sun-Times who cites sources familiar. Then again, why would the FBI want to let that fact out in the open if he was killed?

[Tonyd621]

What about this new gangster report article? Possibly Chicago getting to a guy in witsec to hit him in 2009? Any truth to that?

LaValley was a scumbag. Seems like the type of guy who makes enemies everywhere he goes, witsec or not.

Jim LaValley the golf course thug. I swear the only person I've ever heard say LaValley was dead was Joe Fosco years ago and he could never provide proof. From my view, the Outfit always hard larger targets in witsec - BJ Jahoda put the entire Cicero crew in prison and remained close to Illinois all these years later.

It's an article by Burnstein posted in his most recent gangsterreport.com site saying he was killed on a golf course in 2009. I would be surprised they can get to somebody in witsec. I know about the whole Ambrose case but they never got to anybody.

They did get to people in WitSec like Bombacino back in the old days - and I think they are the only family to have done that actually. I was surprised they got as close as they did to Ambrose - but I have a hard time believing someone killed LaValley. Sometimes these guys are just scumbags and agree with Snakes he likely made enemies everywhere - but you never know. Frankly I'm just not entirely sure LaValley was killed - Burnstein cites the Sun-Times who cites sources familiar. Then again, why would the FBI want to let that fact out in the open if he was killed?

Well it was 13 yrs ago when the alleged incident happened. Maybe due to FOIA requests govt stonewalling it just came out. The article says it's possible suicide its not for sure a murder case. Idk who kills themselves in the middle of playing golf, though. Again if this is all true. I have not reason to believe it's not. I believe Scott has journalistic integrity as does the sun or tribune so I mean.... I am not the Chicago expert. I am a researcher but not the skills as you guys do