General Chicago Outfit Info Dumping Ground

[Wiseguy]

In the interest of stimulating conversation, I'm going to share some personal anecdotes on the current outfit. Take it for it is, I have nothing to prove here, just thought it may be interesting to share a perspective.

My grandfather is 90 years old, 1st generation Italian American, grew up around Grand Ave, and currently still resides in his home in Elmwood Park, where he has lived for the past 60 years. Refuses to move out. He has breakfast every Sunday with a group of "old timers"...all Italians, and has always been socially connected to outfit figures. He was the one who stimulated my interest in the outfit, and eventually led me to sites like this one. He still has a bookie, if that helps you visualize the kind of guy we are talking about. Never was an outfit guy, but knew D'Amico, Joey Lombardo, and a few others socially. I pick his brain all the time, mostly on older stuff. Calls them "mustaches" when referring to outfit guys.

His take on the current outfit is that they are "mostly legit", but they are still around. Says the real outfit guys all own several businesses like restaurants, construction companies, car washes, real estate, insurance companies, etc. The young guys and associates are the ones directly doing the remaining illegal work like bookmaking, loan sharking, credit card scams, extortion, etc. The "legit" made guys finance much of it, and get kicked up to. He even calls it a "Wop Business Club" jokingly. They all lend money to each other, invest in businesses, etc. Says there will always be an outfit because there are always at least some young guys who want to make a quick buck.

Essentially it seems to me that there is a small core group of made men left, who on the surface operate legit biz, but still profit from and finance illegal activities. The young guys do most of that type of activity and strive to get to the level of the older made guys. Violence seems to be way less common, but of course I'm sure there are pockets still capable.

It my educated guess that they are still making guys every once in a while. I would not be surprised if it was a situation where once you are made, you are essentially a partner in the "club", getting a small piece of everyone's businesses. Could be one of the reasons they are so careful about who gets brought in.

Having lived in EP for most of his life, he was an acquaintance of DIfronzo as well. Says that he was the #1 boss from the early 90's through early 2010's before the Alzheimer's crippled him. Says basically everyone who is the know in the area was aware of that and that is was un-questioned.

Interesting.

I personally see not much in the way of convincing evidence of them still making members. But even assuming they have, the declining numbers over the years show it's not keeping up with attrition.

It also brings up a point that I mentioned in another thread. Once the small core of made members in the Outfit are dead, by definition the Outfit is gone, regardless of who else is still alive or what they're involved in.

Even now, I think much of what gets labeled as "the Outfit" is quasi-legit associates, descendants of dead members or associates who are a part of legit society but may have been given a job, union position, etc.

[Snakes]

In the interest of stimulating conversation, I'm going to share some personal anecdotes on the current outfit. Take it for it is, I have nothing to prove here, just thought it may be interesting to share a perspective.

My grandfather is 90 years old, 1st generation Italian American, grew up around Grand Ave, and currently still resides in his home in Elmwood Park, where he has lived for the past 60 years. Refuses to move out. He has breakfast every Sunday with a group of "old timers"...all Italians, and has always been socially connected to outfit figures. He was the one who stimulated my interest in the outfit, and eventually led me to sites like this one. He still has a bookie, if that helps you visualize the kind of guy we are talking about. Never was an outfit guy, but knew D'Amico, Joey Lombardo, and a few others socially. I pick his brain all the time, mostly on older stuff. Calls them "mustaches" when referring to outfit guys.

His take on the current outfit is that they are "mostly legit", but they are still around. Says the real outfit guys all own several businesses like restaurants, construction companies, car washes, real estate, insurance companies, etc. The young guys and associates are the ones directly doing the remaining illegal work like bookmaking, loan sharking, credit card scams, extortion, etc. The "legit" made guys finance much of it, and get kicked up to. He even calls it a "Wop Business Club" jokingly. They all lend money to each other, invest in businesses, etc. Says there will always be an outfit because there are always at least some young guys who want to make a quick buck.

Essentially it seems to me that there is a small core group of made men left, who on the surface operate legit biz, but still profit from and finance illegal activities. The young guys do most of that type of activity and strive to get to the level of the older made guys. Violence seems to be way less common, but of course I'm sure there are pockets still capable.

It my educated guess that they are still making guys every once in a while. I would not be surprised if it was a situation where once you are made, you are essentially a partner in the "club", getting a small piece of everyone's businesses. Could be one of the reasons they are so careful about who gets brought in.

Having lived in EP for most of his life, he was an acquaintance of DIfronzo as well. Says that he was the #1 boss from the early 90's through early 2010's before the Alzheimer's crippled him. Says basically everyone who is the know in the area was aware of that and that is was un-questioned.

Thanks. I don't think anyone here would quibble with this. Hell, Wiseguy really didn't!

[Coloboy]

In the interest of stimulating conversation, I'm going to share some personal anecdotes on the current outfit. Take it for it is, I have nothing to prove here, just thought it may be interesting to share a perspective.

My grandfather is 90 years old, 1st generation Italian American, grew up around Grand Ave, and currently still resides in his home in Elmwood Park, where he has lived for the past 60 years. Refuses to move out. He has breakfast every Sunday with a group of "old timers"...all Italians, and has always been socially connected to outfit figures. He was the one who stimulated my interest in the outfit, and eventually led me to sites like this one. He still has a bookie, if that helps you visualize the kind of guy we are talking about. Never was an outfit guy, but knew D'Amico, Joey Lombardo, and a few others socially. I pick his brain all the time, mostly on older stuff. Calls them "mustaches" when referring to outfit guys.

His take on the current outfit is that they are "mostly legit", but they are still around. Says the real outfit guys all own several businesses like restaurants, construction companies, car washes, real estate, insurance companies, etc. The young guys and associates are the ones directly doing the remaining illegal work like bookmaking, loan sharking, credit card scams, extortion, etc. The "legit" made guys finance much of it, and get kicked up to. He even calls it a "Wop Business Club" jokingly. They all lend money to each other, invest in businesses, etc. Says there will always be an outfit because there are always at least some young guys who want to make a quick buck.

Essentially it seems to me that there is a small core group of made men left, who on the surface operate legit biz, but still profit from and finance illegal activities. The young guys do most of that type of activity and strive to get to the level of the older made guys. Violence seems to be way less common, but of course I'm sure there are pockets still capable.

It my educated guess that they are still making guys every once in a while. I would not be surprised if it was a situation where once you are made, you are essentially a partner in the "club", getting a small piece of everyone's businesses. Could be one of the reasons they are so careful about who gets brought in.

Having lived in EP for most of his life, he was an acquaintance of DIfronzo as well. Says that he was the #1 boss from the early 90's through early 2010's before the Alzheimer's crippled him. Says basically everyone who is the know in the area was aware of that and that is was un-questioned.

Interesting.

I personally see not much in the way of convincing evidence of them still making members. But even assuming they have, the declining numbers over the years show it's not keeping up with attrition.

It also brings up a point that I mentioned in another thread. Once the small core of made members in the Outfit are dead, by definition the Outfit is gone, regardless of who else is still alive or what they're involved in.

Even now, I think much of what gets labeled as "the Outfit" is quasi-legit associates, descendants of dead members or associates who are a part of legit society but may have been given a job, union position, etc.

Yeah I would agree with this. It's definitely a small, shrinking society. Whatever is left is hanging on. Although there does still seems to be a structure of some sort remaining. It is my opinion that Delaurentis does still hold some type of position and that all the restaurants, cleaning companies, etc he promotes on facebook are mostly for the appearance of having legitimate income, even though they still may make him some money.

[PolackTony]

In the interest of stimulating conversation, I'm going to share some personal anecdotes on the current outfit. Take it for it is, I have nothing to prove here, just thought it may be interesting to share a perspective.

My grandfather is 90 years old, 1st generation Italian American, grew up around Grand Ave, and currently still resides in his home in Elmwood Park, where he has lived for the past 60 years. Refuses to move out. He has breakfast every Sunday with a group of "old timers"...all Italians, and has always been socially connected to outfit figures. He was the one who stimulated my interest in the outfit, and eventually led me to sites like this one. He still has a bookie, if that helps you visualize the kind of guy we are talking about. Never was an outfit guy, but knew D'Amico, Joey Lombardo, and a few others socially. I pick his brain all the time, mostly on older stuff. Calls them "mustaches" when referring to outfit guys.

His take on the current outfit is that they are "mostly legit", but they are still around. Says the real outfit guys all own several businesses like restaurants, construction companies, car washes, real estate, insurance companies, etc. The young guys and associates are the ones directly doing the remaining illegal work like bookmaking, loan sharking, credit card scams, extortion, etc. The "legit" made guys finance much of it, and get kicked up to. He even calls it a "Wop Business Club" jokingly. They all lend money to each other, invest in businesses, etc. Says there will always be an outfit because there are always at least some young guys who want to make a quick buck.

Essentially it seems to me that there is a small core group of made men left, who on the surface operate legit biz, but still profit from and finance illegal activities. The young guys do most of that type of activity and strive to get to the level of the older made guys. Violence seems to be way less common, but of course I'm sure there are pockets still capable.

Thanks. Interesting take from your granddad. This is basically my opinion too, and I think this is most likely the current state of the Outfit. Still a small formal structure left, but most of the criminal activity is carried out by associates operating under the aegis of the made members who exist as a mostly business racketeering oriented clique and who retain important personal connections in local government, public services, unions, and legit businesses. As we've seen with the recent Chicago-area gambling busts, the made guys are not involved directly in the operations of the rackets, though we see with Paloian apparently kicking up to Sarno that they are probably receiving their cut. Most likely these associates still have some incentive to operate under the Outfit even today, whether it's because the organization is still able to provide some degree of influence over government officials or police (mainly in the suburbs), or simply because the Outfit retains a "brand" with influence among gamblers and hustlers in specific Chicagoland communities and networks.

Worth noting that Frank Cullotta also stated that made guys were called "mustaches".

It my educated guess that they are still making guys every once in a while. I would not be surprised if it was a situation where once you are made, you are essentially a partner in the "club", getting a small piece of everyone's businesses. Could be one of the reasons they are so careful about who gets brought in.

I think this is an important point. My take is that they have always operated like this. Being made gave one a degree of protection from summary execution, as well as access to the family admin as a means to mediate disputes. But I think it also enabled one to engage as a partner with one's capo and/or members of the admin in the operation of racket enterprises. Whereas associates were essentially "workers" employed by the made guy that they belonged to, members were partners and something like shareholders or franchisees.

Having lived in EP for most of his life, he was an acquaintance of DIfronzo as well. Says that he was the #1 boss from the early 90's through early 2010's before the Alzheimer's crippled him. Says basically everyone who is the know in the area was aware of that and that is was un-questioned.

Interesting take. I think this is supported by DiFronzo's apparent involvement in the Zizzo thing before he was hit. Questions remain as to whether DiFronzo was a "chairman" a la Ricca and Accardo, or if he was official boss and other guys were formally just acting, with DiFronzo retaining the title but largely removed from active involvement in the family apart from major decisions like the Zizzo beef.

[Snakes]

If I had to guess, I'd say he was in a role similar to Ricca/Accardo during Giancana's tenure as boss, with probably even less involvement. Remember, we also had evidence from that C.I. that Sarno was kicking something up to DiFronzo prior to Sarno's conviction.

[PolackTony]

If I had to guess, I'd say he was in a role similar to Ricca/Accardo during Giancana's tenure as boss, with probably even less involvement. Remember, we also had evidence from that C.I. that Sarno was kicking something up to DiFronzo prior to Sarno's conviction.

Thanks for the reminder on the Sarno thing. Could be that DiFronzo was "chairman" or that he was official boss while Sarno was acting. Either way, I think we'd see Sarno kicking up to him. Do you think there's any firm reason to assume one over the other?

[Antiliar]

In the interest of stimulating conversation, I'm going to share some personal anecdotes on the current outfit. Take it for it is, I have nothing to prove here, just thought it may be interesting to share a perspective.

My grandfather is 90 years old, 1st generation Italian American, grew up around Grand Ave, and currently still resides in his home in Elmwood Park, where he has lived for the past 60 years. Refuses to move out. He has breakfast every Sunday with a group of "old timers"...all Italians, and has always been socially connected to outfit figures. He was the one who stimulated my interest in the outfit, and eventually led me to sites like this one. He still has a bookie, if that helps you visualize the kind of guy we are talking about. Never was an outfit guy, but knew D'Amico, Joey Lombardo, and a few others socially. I pick his brain all the time, mostly on older stuff. Calls them "mustaches" when referring to outfit guys.

His take on the current outfit is that they are "mostly legit", but they are still around. Says the real outfit guys all own several businesses like restaurants, construction companies, car washes, real estate, insurance companies, etc. The young guys and associates are the ones directly doing the remaining illegal work like bookmaking, loan sharking, credit card scams, extortion, etc. The "legit" made guys finance much of it, and get kicked up to. He even calls it a "Wop Business Club" jokingly. They all lend money to each other, invest in businesses, etc. Says there will always be an outfit because there are always at least some young guys who want to make a quick buck.

Essentially it seems to me that there is a small core group of made men left, who on the surface operate legit biz, but still profit from and finance illegal activities. The young guys do most of that type of activity and strive to get to the level of the older made guys. Violence seems to be way less common, but of course I'm sure there are pockets still capable.

It my educated guess that they are still making guys every once in a while. I would not be surprised if it was a situation where once you are made, you are essentially a partner in the "club", getting a small piece of everyone's businesses. Could be one of the reasons they are so careful about who gets brought in.

Having lived in EP for most of his life, he was an acquaintance of DIfronzo as well. Says that he was the #1 boss from the early 90's through early 2010's before the Alzheimer's crippled him. Says basically everyone who is the know in the area was aware of that and that is was un-questioned.

What are your grandfather's thoughts on who's running things now? Solly D? Vena? Andriacchi? Someone else?

[Snakes]

If I had to guess, I'd say he was in a role similar to Ricca/Accardo during Giancana's tenure as boss, with probably even less involvement. Remember, we also had evidence from that C.I. that Sarno was kicking something up to DiFronzo prior to Sarno's conviction.

Thanks for the reminder on the Sarno thing. Could be that DiFronzo was "chairman" or that he was official boss while Sarno was acting. Either way, I think we'd see Sarno kicking up to him. Do you think there's any firm reason to assume one over the other?

Well, the files that named Monteleone and Tornabene as boss didn't including "acting," so it could be assumed that Sarno was the guy, too. DiFronzo was the most senior guy, and even if he wasn't active, I'd guess that whatever he got was tribute for him "allowing" it to go on. I'm not sure if receiving money would make you technically part of a conspiracy if there is no evidence of you otherwise being a part of that conspiracy. For example, Sarno could have given him an envelope with money from a legitimate business for all anyone knows. So I've never really bought that DiFronzo wasn't getting something out of fear of being indicted. The one time he was indicted on a RICO charge was from him telling Michael Caracci "do it" (paraphrasing here). So what does he do? He steps down and just gets Pete (or whomever) to drop an envelope off every month or so. He doesn't need the prestige or status because he already has it. Sure, he doesn't need the money either, but nobody is turning down a couple extra grand a month for doing nothing.

[PolackTony]

If I had to guess, I'd say he was in a role similar to Ricca/Accardo during Giancana's tenure as boss, with probably even less involvement. Remember, we also had evidence from that C.I. that Sarno was kicking something up to DiFronzo prior to Sarno's conviction.

Thanks for the reminder on the Sarno thing. Could be that DiFronzo was "chairman" or that he was official boss while Sarno was acting. Either way, I think we'd see Sarno kicking up to him. Do you think there's any firm reason to assume one over the other?

Well, the files that named Monteleone and Tornabene as boss didn't including "acting," so it could be assumed that Sarno was the guy, too. DiFronzo was the most senior guy, and even if he wasn't active, I'd guess that whatever he got was tribute for him "allowing" it to go on. I'm not sure if receiving money would make you technically part of a conspiracy if there is no evidence of you otherwise being a part of that conspiracy. For example, Sarno could have given him an envelope with money from a legitimate business for all anyone knows. So I've never really bought that DiFronzo wasn't getting something out of fear of being indicted. The one time he was indicted on a RICO charge was from him telling Michael Caracci "do it" (paraphrasing here). So what does he do? He steps down and just gets Pete (or whomever) to drop an envelope off every month or so. He doesn't need the prestige or status because he already has it. Sure, he doesn't need the money either, but nobody is turning down a couple extra grand a month for doing nothing.

Yeah, Monteleone or Tornabene never being named as "acting" bosses is a good point. Just to play devil's advocate and question this a bit though -- what are the chances that they actually were acting or street bosses for DiFronzo but the G thought they had the title? Either way, DiFronzo was obviously removed from the street and day-to-day operations so in function he was more like Ricca/Accardo. But I'm interested in the formal/organizational structure here and on that level, it matters whether or not DiFronzo retained the formal title of boss.

[Snakes]

I'm not sure it matters in this situation. We have informants that state that Giancana was the boss, but the true power was with Ricca and Accardo, who didn't really have titles. I guess "chairman" if we have to have a label, but it was to their advantage to *not* have a formal position, and I think the same was true for DiFronzo.

[Coloboy]

In the interest of stimulating conversation, I'm going to share some personal anecdotes on the current outfit. Take it for it is, I have nothing to prove here, just thought it may be interesting to share a perspective.

My grandfather is 90 years old, 1st generation Italian American, grew up around Grand Ave, and currently still resides in his home in Elmwood Park, where he has lived for the past 60 years. Refuses to move out. He has breakfast every Sunday with a group of "old timers"...all Italians, and has always been socially connected to outfit figures. He was the one who stimulated my interest in the outfit, and eventually led me to sites like this one. He still has a bookie, if that helps you visualize the kind of guy we are talking about. Never was an outfit guy, but knew D'Amico, Joey Lombardo, and a few others socially. I pick his brain all the time, mostly on older stuff. Calls them "mustaches" when referring to outfit guys.

His take on the current outfit is that they are "mostly legit", but they are still around. Says the real outfit guys all own several businesses like restaurants, construction companies, car washes, real estate, insurance companies, etc. The young guys and associates are the ones directly doing the remaining illegal work like bookmaking, loan sharking, credit card scams, extortion, etc. The "legit" made guys finance much of it, and get kicked up to. He even calls it a "Wop Business Club" jokingly. They all lend money to each other, invest in businesses, etc. Says there will always be an outfit because there are always at least some young guys who want to make a quick buck.

Essentially it seems to me that there is a small core group of made men left, who on the surface operate legit biz, but still profit from and finance illegal activities. The young guys do most of that type of activity and strive to get to the level of the older made guys. Violence seems to be way less common, but of course I'm sure there are pockets still capable.

It my educated guess that they are still making guys every once in a while. I would not be surprised if it was a situation where once you are made, you are essentially a partner in the "club", getting a small piece of everyone's businesses. Could be one of the reasons they are so careful about who gets brought in.

Having lived in EP for most of his life, he was an acquaintance of DIfronzo as well. Says that he was the #1 boss from the early 90's through early 2010's before the Alzheimer's crippled him. Says basically everyone who is the know in the area was aware of that and that is was un-questioned.

What are your grandfather's thoughts on who's running things now? Solly D? Vena? Andriacchi? Someone else?

Believe me, I’ve asked this many times. My grandfather was in the same age group as guys like Difronzo, Andriacchi, Lombardo, and D’Amico. Those were the guys that he grew up around and was familiar with. They’re not so knowledgeable or aware of the next generation.

Which brings me to a point I would love everyone’s opinion on. Seems to me that sometimes even the made guys who are not on the capo or territory boss level, may not have even had/have a full picture of the top administration. I’m thinking of when Calabrese sr was talking on the prison tapes mentioning how DiFronzo had stepped down and Joey A had taken that spot. Most charts from that era in the late 90s have Montelone as day today boss, so what was the real story there? I think a lot of people were kept in the dark.

[Coloboy]

Sorry to throw a ton of topics out there at once, but it’s been a long time since I’ve visited the forum and have a few thoughts.

Have we ever considered that from the 70s on, the outfit may have been split up into a north side boss and south sideboss both reporting to an ultimate chairman of the board or top boss? What I mean is that we often talk about how Aiuppa was the top guy, with cerone as his underboss. What if they were equals under Accardo during that period? In Ken Eto‘s testimony, he labeled the two of them as equals. One possibly handling Cicero, 26th St., and the Heights, and the other handling EP, grand Avenue, and the northside. This could have continued under Carlisi and Difronzo with the same set up reporting to Accardo, and then ultimately leading to Andriacchi as “Northside Boss” and Montelone as “south side” boss reporting up to DiFronzo. No evidence to back this structure up but it could make sense, especially as we start looking at the of Joey A and Montelone in the 90s.

It’s also possible this structure still exists today with the southside group reporting to Jimmy I and the northside group reporting to vena, with DeLaurentis as the chairman

[Snakes]

Sorry to throw a ton of topics out there at once, but it’s been a long time since I’ve visited the forum and have a few thoughts.

Have we ever considered that from the 70s on, the outfit may have been split up into a north side boss and south sideboss both reporting to an ultimate chairman of the board or top boss? What I mean is that we often talk about how Aiuppa was the top guy, with cerone as his underboss. What if they were equals under Accardo during that period? In Ken Eto‘s testimony, he labeled the two of them as equals. One possibly handling Cicero, 26th St., and the Heights, and the other handling EP, grand Avenue, and the northside. This could have continued under Carlisi and Difronzo with the same set up reporting to Accardo, and then ultimately leading to Andriacchi as “Northside Boss” and Montelone as “south side” boss reporting up to DiFronzo. No evidence to back this structure up but it could make sense, especially as we start looking at the of Joey A and Montelone in the 90s.

It’s also possible this structure still exists today with the southside group reporting to Jimmy I and the northside group reporting to vena, with DeLaurentis as the chairman

I think there were too many references to Cerone as underboss (albeit a powerful one) for me to think he was an equal. Maybe a 1a. I could even entertain the thought that Aiuppa was getting older and his health was failing, so Cerone was almost an acting boss at times.

As for the north/south, it's plausible, but there is such a dearth of information. Maybe a few years from now when some guys die (how morbid). The files don't seem to differentiate between a north and south group.

As for Joey A, I think this was when DiFronzo was in prison for a year and Andriacchi was basically acting boss. Maybe Frank was referring to that time period as when Monteleone felt passed over. A couple of years later, Monteleone had the top spot, although some of Frank's comments make it hard to decipher when and what he is talking about (with good reason).

[Snakes]

Coloboy, since you haven't been around, I figured I'd repost this. It's a timeline we pieced together of Outfit leadership since the skim convictions:

1986-1992: Sam Carlisi (imprisoned)
Street Boss 1989/1990 to 1992: John DiFronzo
1992 to 1997: John DiFronzo (stepped down)
Acting 1992/1993 to 1994: Joe Andriacchi
1997 to 2001: John Monteleone (died)
2001 to 2003: Al Tornabene (stepped down)
2003 to 2005: James Marcello (imprisoned)
2005 to 2010: Mike Sarno (imprisoned)
2010 to Present: Unknown

[Patrickgold]

Sorry to throw a ton of topics out there at once, but it’s been a long time since I’ve visited the forum and have a few thoughts.

Have we ever considered that from the 70s on, the outfit may have been split up into a north side boss and south sideboss both reporting to an ultimate chairman of the board or top boss? What I mean is that we often talk about how Aiuppa was the top guy, with cerone as his underboss. What if they were equals under Accardo during that period? In Ken Eto‘s testimony, he labeled the two of them as equals. One possibly handling Cicero, 26th St., and the Heights, and the other handling EP, grand Avenue, and the northside. This could have continued under Carlisi and Difronzo with the same set up reporting to Accardo, and then ultimately leading to Andriacchi as “Northside Boss” and Montelone as “south side” boss reporting up to DiFronzo. No evidence to back this structure up but it could make sense, especially as we start looking at the of Joey A and Montelone in the 90s.

It’s also possible this structure still exists today with the southside group reporting to Jimmy I and the northside group reporting to vena, with DeLaurentis as the chairman

Maybe there was some validation to when the Chicago Crime Commission said in the late 90s that the Outfit got rid of the different crews and made them into 3: North, South and West. Andriacca was listed as North, Monteleone as South and Centraccio as West.