Membership Counts, 1993

[Patrickgold]

I believe you mean the Carabbia's, Ronald Sr. in particular.

Yes and wasn’t his brother a member too? I forgot his name

There is no doubt The blanked out names are Papalardo and iacobacci
Your talking about Charlie or orlie both were not made , I don’t believe Ronnie was made either . But he would the only one of them that would of been made .

Oh ok. I thought Ronnie was for sure made. Why do you think Calabrese was not on that list?

Becuase he was never made

Stocco,

Just to confirm what your saying that Allie Calabrese was never made, despite reports that he was organizing what was left of Cleveland in the mid 90s, along with Joe Loose. Also, wasn’t Calabrese introduced as a made man to the NYC guys according to Alite.

[Patrickgold]

Interesting since I think his brother Tony Zito was identified as his underboss was alive until 1999, Vito Impastato was alive and I think Ernest "Buster" Dinora was around until maybe the 1990s? There were reports that Dinora led whatever was left after Frank died.

Cavita, I never heard that Tony Zito was his underboss. It would make sense because he was allegedly involved in at least one murder in the late 1950s so he probably definitely was made. Two out of three of his brothers were definitely made. I always heard that Impastato possible took over. He and his son got involved in narcotics which eventually took both of them down in the 1980s.

[Newyorkempire]

I believe you mean the Carabbia's, Ronald Sr. in particular.

Yes and wasn’t his brother a member too? I forgot his name

There is no doubt The blanked out names are Papalardo and iacobacci
Your talking about Charlie or orlie both were not made , I don’t believe Ronnie was made either . But he would the only one of them that would of been made .

Oh ok. I thought Ronnie was for sure made. Why do you think Calabrese was not on that list?

Becuase he was never made

Stocco,

Just to confirm what your saying that Allie Calabrese was never made, despite reports that he was organizing what was left of Cleveland in the mid 90s, along with Joe Loose. Also, wasn’t Calabrese introduced as a made man to the NYC guys according to Alite.

If he was said to be the Underboss to Iabocci and meeting with top NY guys pretty sure he would have had to be made. Unless those articles are all false.

[cavita]

Interesting since I think his brother Tony Zito was identified as his underboss was alive until 1999, Vito Impastato was alive and I think Ernest "Buster" Dinora was around until maybe the 1990s? There were reports that Dinora led whatever was left after Frank died.

Cavita, I never heard that Tony Zito was his underboss. It would make sense because he was allegedly involved in at least one murder in the late 1950s so he probably definitely was made. Two out of three of his brothers were definitely made. I always heard that Impastato possible took over. He and his son got involved in narcotics which eventually took both of them down in the 1980s.

I believe this was from Lennert's research. Impastato was offered the top spot but declined because of his health. Dinora assumed that the Chicago Outfit would help them rebuild but they had their own problems. I also seem to recall Lennert said Mike Midiri was made and was still alive into the 1980s.

[Snakes]

Interesting since I think his brother Tony Zito was identified as his underboss was alive until 1999, Vito Impastato was alive and I think Ernest "Buster" Dinora was around until maybe the 1990s? There were reports that Dinora led whatever was left after Frank died.

Cavita, I never heard that Tony Zito was his underboss. It would make sense because he was allegedly involved in at least one murder in the late 1950s so he probably definitely was made. Two out of three of his brothers were definitely made. I always heard that Impastato possible took over. He and his son got involved in narcotics which eventually took both of them down in the 1980s.

I believe this was from Lennert's research. Impastato was offered the top spot but declined because of his health. Dinora assumed that the Chicago Outfit would help them rebuild but they had their own problems. I also seem to recall Lennert said Mike Midiri was made and was still alive into the 1980s.

Could Zito or Dinora be one or two of the redacted names on the Chicago list? They would fit alphabetically.

[cavita]

Interesting since I think his brother Tony Zito was identified as his underboss was alive until 1999, Vito Impastato was alive and I think Ernest "Buster" Dinora was around until maybe the 1990s? There were reports that Dinora led whatever was left after Frank died.

Cavita, I never heard that Tony Zito was his underboss. It would make sense because he was allegedly involved in at least one murder in the late 1950s so he probably definitely was made. Two out of three of his brothers were definitely made. I always heard that Impastato possible took over. He and his son got involved in narcotics which eventually took both of them down in the 1980s.

I believe this was from Lennert's research. Impastato was offered the top spot but declined because of his health. Dinora assumed that the Chicago Outfit would help them rebuild but they had their own problems. I also seem to recall Lennert said Mike Midiri was made and was still alive into the 1980s.

Could Zito or Dinora be one or two of the redacted names on the Chicago list? They would fit alphabetically.

Good call. Possibly.

[B.]

A+ thread.

We can see they were still lacking substantial informants in some Families and didn't necessarily have a comprehensive / current look into all of them at this time, though it's a great snapshot of what the FBI knew at the time. They may have had other lists with more info, too.

Obviously they didn't have a solid look into the DeCavalcantes at the time. That said, they knew Riggi was the boss and had more info than this list suggests based on other FBI files we've seen.

As mentioned, first time I've seen Tony Ferrante is listed as a Philly captain. There are mistakes on other Families' charts but would be strange to randomly assign Ferrante a rank if there wasn't some reason. I've long suspected some older guys briefly held positions when the Family was transitioning between the late 1980s and early 1990s but most of our sources were made a short time later and didn't spend much time as active associates before that.

Interesting too they carry the members from the August 1990 ceremony as members -- again makes me question the rumors of them being unrecognized given Centorino, Praino, and Olivieri have all been mentioned as recognized members later.

26. Joseph Frank LaMantia: Interesting entry as we had all been led to believe that he wasn't made, with Frank Sr. implying as such on the prison tapes. Of course, that could be taken out of context or the FBI could just be plain wrong here, although their standards at this time used the language "no doubts" when referring to identification of made members.

Did Calabrese explicitly say LaMantia wasn't made, or was he more upset that LaMantia violated protocol by implying he was made without a third party to make the introduction? Been a while since I saw that but curious how Calabrese worded his complaint, as it would be a rule violation either way to hint you're made even if you do have the button.

Charles A. LoCicero - Is this the one whacked in 1968 or another relative?

The father (killed 1968) had a son named Charles who was active as an associate in the 1960s. Might be him.

[Snakes]

26. Joseph Frank LaMantia: Interesting entry as we had all been led to believe that he wasn't made, with Frank Sr. implying as such on the prison tapes. Of course, that could be taken out of context or the FBI could just be plain wrong here, although their standards at this time used the language "no doubts" when referring to identification of made members.

Did Calabrese explicitly say LaMantia wasn't made, or was he more upset that LaMantia violated protocol by implying he was made without a third party to make the introduction? Been a while since I saw that but curious how Calabrese worded his complaint, as it would be a rule violation either way to hint you're made even if you do have the button.

My understanding was that Frank, Sr. was upset that LaMantia introduced him as made, both because Sr. did not want to be known to others as made and because LaMantia himself was not made. The transcript (and I'm paraphrasing here as I have it but it is a pain to search) has a quote where Jr. is listening to the story and says something like "...and he wasn't even-" before Sr cuts him off with "I know!" I will have to go back and check if that is the exact wording, though. I know it isn't concrete evidence and obviously someone thought LaMantia was made but I had always interpreted that quote otherwise, although others may disagree.

[PolackTony]

26. Joseph Frank LaMantia: Interesting entry as we had all been led to believe that he wasn't made, with Frank Sr. implying as such on the prison tapes. Of course, that could be taken out of context or the FBI could just be plain wrong here, although their standards at this time used the language "no doubts" when referring to identification of made members.

Did Calabrese explicitly say LaMantia wasn't made, or was he more upset that LaMantia violated protocol by implying he was made without a third party to make the introduction? Been a while since I saw that but curious how Calabrese worded his complaint, as it would be a rule violation either way to hint you're made even if you do have the button.

My understanding was that Frank, Sr. was upset that LaMantia introduced him as made, both because Sr. did not want to be known to others as made and because LaMantia himself was not made. The transcript (and I'm paraphrasing here as I have it but it is a pain to search) has a quote where Jr. is listening to the story and says something like "...and he wasn't even-" before Sr cuts him off with "I know!" I will have to go back and check if that is the exact wording, though. I know it isn't concrete evidence and obviously someone thought LaMantia was made but I had always interpreted that quote otherwise, although others may disagree.

I still think it’s vague enough to be read multiple ways. Frankly (pun intended), I think it’s worth just reaching out to Frank Jr and asking for clarification on this. There are guys on this forum who’ve communicated with Frank Jr, right? I haven’t, or else I’d ask him myself. Given the way his father tried to take him under his wing, it’s certainly possible that Frank Sr told him something about the protocol regarding made status and even potentially how they handled introductions with other members and other families.

[JoeCamel]

Most of those lists are missing a lot of guys that are otherwise confirmed as made by the FBI during that time period so I’m assuming those are some sort of preconsolidated lists for some unclear reason. Still though, really really cool. Would be so interesting to see any lists from other years like later in the 90s or 00s.

I may make a FOIA request for member lists/family demographics or maybe might be an idea to ask for lists of unconfirmed members or possible members that haven’t otherwise been confirmed by the stringnent 2 source FBI standards and see how many more guys we know to be members will appear. Even redacted most of the guys would be identified by the guys here

[B.]

Re: Tony Ferrante being ID'd as a Philly captain. Reminded me that John Veasey was shot by Pagano and Martines in an apartment above Ferrante's meat shop.

[Snakes]

Most of those lists are missing a lot of guys that are otherwise confirmed as made by the FBI during that time period so I’m assuming those are some sort of preconsolidated lists for some unclear reason. Still though, really really cool. Would be so interesting to see any lists from other years like later in the 90s or 00s.

I may make a FOIA request for member lists/family demographics or maybe might be an idea to ask for lists of unconfirmed members or possible members that haven’t otherwise been confirmed by the stringnent 2 source FBI standards and see how many more guys we know to be members will appear. Even redacted most of the guys would be identified by the guys here

If they were confirmed as made at the time by the FBI, they should be on there. Most of the lists are about 65 to 70% redacted, however.

[JoeCamel]

Redaction notwithstanding. There are a few bonafide instances of definite made men missing from where the should be on the list. San Jose’s list should be a little longer, for instance. I spent like two hours poring over this the other day but been up all night in Miami and my short term memory isnt treating me well

[Snakes]

Redaction notwithstanding. There are a few bonafide instances of definite made men missing from where the should be on the list. San Jose’s list should be a little longer, for instance. I spent like two hours poring over this the other day but been up all night in Miami and my short term memory isnt treating me well

Well, remember, if they were on some of the membership lists in the 60s, they may not have carried over to the ones of the 80s and 90s after the standards were revised. Some of the old-timers were grandfathered in because the source information from the 60s still met the revised criteria but I imagine some were never validated as the more modern sources were probably not familiar with their status or level of activity.

[cavita]

Redaction notwithstanding. There are a few bonafide instances of definite made men missing from where the should be on the list. San Jose’s list should be a little longer, for instance. I spent like two hours poring over this the other day but been up all night in Miami and my short term memory isnt treating me well

Well, remember, if they were on some of the membership lists in the 60s, they may not have carried over to the ones of the 80s and 90s after the standards were revised. Some of the old-timers were grandfathered in because the source information from the 60s still met the revised criteria but I imagine some were never validated as the more modern sources were probably not familiar with their status or level of activity.

Spot on observation.