General Chicago Outfit Info Dumping Ground

[PolackTony]

When it comes to Shorty LaMantia, I need to go back and revisit the FS evidence for Frank Calabrese’s comments here. Based on what I recall, it’s unclear to me ff Frank was mad at Shorty for introducing himself to East Coast guys because he wasn’t made, or because he was making his own introductions as opposed to being introduced by a third party. My assumption is that Chicago members — like Lucchese and DeCav members — were probably hesitant to identify their membership to other families, except on specific need to know bases. From what we can tell Chicago members didn’t even necessarily know if other Chicago guys were made, presumably as membership even in the same family was also seen as a need to know matter.

[Patrickgold]

What about Tornabene? Could he be #44? He was definitely made considering he was part of Calabrese’s ceremony. This goes to say that the FBI was way off on the numbers. They are missing some big names

[Snakes]

What about Tornabene? Could he be #44? He was definitely made considering he was part of Calabrese’s ceremony. This goes to say that the FBI was way off on the numbers. They are missing some big names

Tocco was 45 so Tornabene does not fit.

[PolackTony]

Gerry Scalise
Harry Aleman (let's be honest he could have been made in Chicago)

Given that he was a relative of Joe Nick, I think it is in the realm of possibility that they gave Aleman a pass.

If you check the Outfit origins topic, you'll see that both Jerry Scalise and Vic Arrigo were of Czech ancestry on their mothers' side. While I think the jury is still out on Scalise, Arrigo was almost certainly made. The Outfit may not have known about their non-Italian ancestry (they may have even lied about it, who knows) or they may not have cared so long as they had an Italian surname. With Jimmy Lights, it's also hard to say which it was. Given that his father Salvatore Marcello (I think) was probably a member, you'd think they'd have known that his mother was Irish; but, if his father was made, they may have known and still given him a pass. We simply don't know enough about how Chicago handled their books and if/whether their protocols or adherence to protocol changed over time or under different leadership. We never had a capo or "BOD" member flip and testify to breakdown how these decisions were handled and thought about, so we will perhaps never get a firm answer to these questions.

[PolackTony]

What about Tornabene? Could he be #44? He was definitely made considering he was part of Calabrese’s ceremony. This goes to say that the FBI was way off on the numbers. They are missing some big names

Tocco was 45 so Tornabene does not fit.

I don't think that they knew about Tornabene yet. Same with other guys like Nick Breeze and Pete DiFronzo.

This list and count is obviously a floor, not a ceiling, of course.

[SolarSolano]

When it comes to Shorty LaMantia, I need to go back and revisit the FS evidence for Frank Calabrese’s comments here. Based on what I recall, it’s unclear to me ff Frank was mad at Shorty for introducing himself to East Coast guys because he wasn’t made, or because he was making his own introductions as opposed to being introduced by a third party. My assumption is that Chicago members — like Lucchese and DeCav members — were probably hesitant to identify their membership to other families, except on specific need to know bases. From what we can tell Chicago members didn’t even necessarily know if other Chicago guys were made, presumably as membership even in the same family was also seen as a need to know matter.

I agree that Frank was mad that SHorty outed him as made - not because Shorty was not made himself. Frank Jr. was actually close to Raymond Patriarca Jr. in prison and several east coast guys from what Frank Jr. has said.

[PolackTony]

When it comes to Shorty LaMantia, I need to go back and revisit the FS evidence for Frank Calabrese’s comments here. Based on what I recall, it’s unclear to me ff Frank was mad at Shorty for introducing himself to East Coast guys because he wasn’t made, or because he was making his own introductions as opposed to being introduced by a third party. My assumption is that Chicago members — like Lucchese and DeCav members — were probably hesitant to identify their membership to other families, except on specific need to know bases. From what we can tell Chicago members didn’t even necessarily know if other Chicago guys were made, presumably as membership even in the same family was also seen as a need to know matter.

I agree that Frank was mad that SHorty outed him as made - not because Shorty was not made himself. Frank Jr. was actually close to Raymond Patriarca Jr. in prison and several east coast guys from what Frank Jr. has said.

Yeah, I may be fuzzy on the details at the moment, but my understanding is that Frank's issue isn't by definition inconsistent with Shorty being a member. Who introduced Shorty to these other guys in the first place? This was Shorty fuckin LaMantia, not Phil Alderisio; I rather doubt that he was in a position to have been introduced by a third party to members from another family in the first place. My guess is that he told guys from other families that he was made and then introduced Frank as made.

[SolarSolano]

When it comes to Shorty LaMantia, I need to go back and revisit the FS evidence for Frank Calabrese’s comments here. Based on what I recall, it’s unclear to me ff Frank was mad at Shorty for introducing himself to East Coast guys because he wasn’t made, or because he was making his own introductions as opposed to being introduced by a third party. My assumption is that Chicago members — like Lucchese and DeCav members — were probably hesitant to identify their membership to other families, except on specific need to know bases. From what we can tell Chicago members didn’t even necessarily know if other Chicago guys were made, presumably as membership even in the same family was also seen as a need to know matter.

I agree that Frank was mad that SHorty outed him as made - not because Shorty was not made himself. Frank Jr. was actually close to Raymond Patriarca Jr. in prison and several east coast guys from what Frank Jr. has said.

Yeah, I may be fuzzy on the details at the moment, but my understanding is that Frank's issue isn't by definition inconsistent with Shorty being a member. Who introduced Shorty to these other guys in the first place? This was Shorty fuckin LaMantia, not Phil Alderisio; I rather doubt that he was in a position to have been introduced by a third party to members from another family in the first place. My guess is that he told guys from other families that he was made and then introduced Frank as made.

Shorty was also serving his time with his son Aldo Piscitelli - who may also be on this made list and had a tattoo of Al Capone on his arm if I remember right. That family wasn't shy about talking about their Outfit connections.

[PolackTony]

When it comes to Shorty LaMantia, I need to go back and revisit the FS evidence for Frank Calabrese’s comments here. Based on what I recall, it’s unclear to me ff Frank was mad at Shorty for introducing himself to East Coast guys because he wasn’t made, or because he was making his own introductions as opposed to being introduced by a third party. My assumption is that Chicago members — like Lucchese and DeCav members — were probably hesitant to identify their membership to other families, except on specific need to know bases. From what we can tell Chicago members didn’t even necessarily know if other Chicago guys were made, presumably as membership even in the same family was also seen as a need to know matter.

I agree that Frank was mad that SHorty outed him as made - not because Shorty was not made himself. Frank Jr. was actually close to Raymond Patriarca Jr. in prison and several east coast guys from what Frank Jr. has said.

Yeah, I may be fuzzy on the details at the moment, but my understanding is that Frank's issue isn't by definition inconsistent with Shorty being a member. Who introduced Shorty to these other guys in the first place? This was Shorty fuckin LaMantia, not Phil Alderisio; I rather doubt that he was in a position to have been introduced by a third party to members from another family in the first place. My guess is that he told guys from other families that he was made and then introduced Frank as made.

Shorty was also serving his time with his son Aldo Piscitelli - who may also be on this made list and had a tattoo of Al Capone on his arm if I remember right. That family wasn't shy about talking about their Outfit connections.

Sure. But bragging about being connected and straight-up telling people you're a made guy aren't the same thing. Either way, it's some spaccone shit and regardless of protocol Frank was a serious and stern dude and likely frowned on that kind of stuff.

[Snakes]

Out of all the names mentioned here, the only one that I would be confident in claiming was made at the time was Mike Castaldo. Everyone else I believe was never made or made on a later date.

I cross-checked a lot of the names I used as suggestions with other files I have access to, which is how I was able to determine Cozzo, Senese, and Spillone's potential inclusion. Including Rockford guys on this list probably led to a couple of false leads for some of the redactions but Cavita is trying to help me out with some of those.

As for the LaMantia situation, LaMantia had introduced Sr. to some members from the East Coast as a made guy. Sr. was discussing this with Jr. and Jr. remarked something to the effect of "and he wasn't even..." before Sr. interrupted. I had always interpreted this to be that LaMantia wasn't made. I suppose it could be something else but based on the anger Sr. reacted with, I could believe it. You would also have to assume that Sr. would know LaMantia's status, considering they were in the same crew. I will see if I can find the exact quotations.

[PolackTony]

Out of all the names mentioned here, the only one that I would be confident in claiming was made at the time was Mike Castaldo. Everyone else I believe was never made or made on a later date.

You don't think D'Antonio was made by '93?

As for the LaMantia situation, LaMantia had introduced Sr. to some members from the East Coast as a made guy. Sr. was discussing this with Jr. and Jr. remarked something to the effect of "and he wasn't even..." before Sr. interrupted. I had always interpreted this to be that LaMantia wasn't made. I suppose it could be something else but based on the anger Sr. reacted with, I could believe it. You would also have to assume that Sr. would know LaMantia's status, considering they were in the same crew. I will see if I can find the exact quotations.

Could be that LaMantia wasn't made, or that he himself was never introduced to these other guys properly in the first place, or that Chicago didn't typically let other families know who was a member except when that was necessary for something (we know that other families kept it close like that too). Just conjecture on my part, but it wouldn't surprise me if Chicago typically only made introductions to other families via someone higher up in the chain of command of the Outfit.

[funkster]

The prison video is difficult to interpret, I just don't see how it's possible that Shorty wasn't made. Too much evidence to the contrary.

[Patrickgold]

Out of all the names mentioned here, the only one that I would be confident in claiming was made at the time was Mike Castaldo. Everyone else I believe was never made or made on a later date.

I cross-checked a lot of the names I used as suggestions with other files I have access to, which is how I was able to determine Cozzo, Senese, and Spillone's potential inclusion. Including Rockford guys on this list probably led to a couple of false leads for some of the redactions but Cavita is trying to help me out with some of those.

As for the LaMantia situation, LaMantia had introduced Sr. to some members from the East Coast as a made guy. Sr. was discussing this with Jr. and Jr. remarked something to the effect of "and he wasn't even..." before Sr. interrupted. I had always interpreted this to be that LaMantia wasn't made. I suppose it could be something else but based on the anger Sr. reacted with, I could believe it. You would also have to assume that Sr. would know LaMantia's status, considering they were in the same crew. I will see if I can find the exact quotations.

Snakes, are you in agreement that Victor Spilotro was made? I have not confirmed this but have always heard that he was made about a year or so after his brothers were killed to kind of reward him for staying loyal despite what happened to his family. I do find it interesting that he died less than 10 years later in a nursing home in Wheeling West Virginia. I wonder how he ended up there

[Antiliar]

What about Tornabene? Could he be #44? He was definitely made considering he was part of Calabrese’s ceremony. This goes to say that the FBI was way off on the numbers. They are missing some big names

Tocco was 45 so Tornabene does not fit.

I don't think that they knew about Tornabene yet. Same with other guys like Nick Breeze and Pete DiFronzo.

This list and count is obviously a floor, not a ceiling, of course.

The FBI had been following Tornabene around since 1970. And I asked Red about Victor Spilotro, Jimmy Cozzo and Legs D'Antonio, and according to him none were made up until the time he testified against Frank Schweihs in 1988.

[Snakes]

I suspect Cozzo and D'Antonio more than Victor. I haven't really heard any mention of the latter being made. Maybe Cozzo and D'Antonio weren't made by 1988 but if they were made after, it would make sense that it'd be around 1992/93 as that is when Lombardo was released from prison. Maybe he requested that some of his guys be made so they could assist in running Grand Avenue while he was on parole restrictions (or as has been suspected, shelved)? I'm not really sure.