Gigante Questions

[Coloboy]

My knowledge mostly lies with the Chicago outfit, and I don’t have much background on the New York families. I know these have probably been answered many times over, but couldn’t find them in the threads. My apologies if this is redundant

Regarding chin and his front boss setup….

1.) did everyone in his own family know who the real boss was?

2.) were the other four families aware of the arrangement? How about families in other cities?

3.) Do we know if gigante and Salerno met regularly? Or did they use a go between for chin to pass orders through.

4,) Finally, what degree of autonomy did Salerno have? I have to think meetings with other families would have been awkward if all he could say was “I’ll get back to you with an answer on that”. Obviously he had some form of authority to be able to make decisions.

The most similar arrangement that I am familiar with was how Tony Accardo (and Paul Ricca before him), were the true top bosses, or chairmen of the board, of the Chicago organization. They had various other day to day bosses, but that set up seems a little different in the fact that the day today boss in the outfit handled most of the business. Best we can tell the top boss, such as accardo, could overrule decisions and his word was final, but the day to day guy ran most of the operations and had significant authority. Most Outfit experts wouldn’t call the day today boss a “front boss “, as it seems he had a little more authority then simply being told what to do. I’m curious about how this arrangement worked in the Genovese family.

[chin_gigante]

When Al D'Arco was made in the Lucchese family in the early 1980s he was told at the ceremony who the heads of the other families were at that time. Gigante was named as the Genovese boss.

Phil Leonetti has talked quite extensively about how Philadelphia knew that Gigante was the boss during that period as well.

On the other hand, if I'm remembering the testimony correctly, I think Angelo Lonardo believed Gigante was a consigliere being groomed to become the boss at that time.

[Wiseguy]

Yeah, recorded comments from mafiosi in and outside the Genovese family (at least in NY) seem to suggest most knew Chin was the real boss. Philadelphia as well. Cleveland, because they dealt with Salerno, maybe not. Buffalo certainly did, at least when Chin approved a new administration there.

Supposedly Fat Tony had a wide degree of autonomy. Not only running his own rackets but also representing the family at Commission meetings, holding making ceremonies, dealing with other families, etc. He wasn't some powerless front boss. But he had to clear any major decisions with Chin.

[eboli]

My knowledge mostly lies with the Chicago outfit, and I don’t have much background on the New York families. I know these have probably been answered many times over, but couldn’t find them in the threads. My apologies if this is redundant

Regarding chin and his front boss setup….

1.) did everyone in his own family know who the real boss was?

2.) were the other four families aware of the arrangement? How about families in other cities?

3.) Do we know if gigante and Salerno met regularly? Or did they use a go between for chin to pass orders through.

4,) Finally, what degree of autonomy did Salerno have? I have to think meetings with other families would have been awkward if all he could say was “I’ll get back to you with an answer on that”. Obviously he had some form of authority to be able to make decisions.

The most similar arrangement that I am familiar with was how Tony Accardo (and Paul Ricca before him), were the true top bosses, or chairmen of the board, of the Chicago organization. They had various other day to day bosses, but that set up seems a little different in the fact that the day today boss in the outfit handled most of the business. Best we can tell the top boss, such as accardo, could overrule decisions and his word was final, but the day to day guy ran most of the operations and had significant authority. Most Outfit experts wouldn’t call the day today boss a “front boss “, as it seems he had a little more authority then simply being told what to do. I’m curious about how this arrangement worked in the Genovese family.

1) Yes.

2) Yes, they were. Chicago was aware, too.

3) They communicated personally and through other people.

4) Gigante and Salerno's relationship in the early 1980s was very similar to the one Jerry Catena had with Strollo/Eboli/Tieri - his underbosses/acting bosses between 1959 and 1972. They had significant freedom to operate, including the authority to go to commission meetings and sanctioning murders, but had no say in decisions deemed above their competence. The Chicago comparisons are appropriate too.

[ChicagoOutfit]

Sammy knew Chin was the boss, Leonetti and D’Arco as others have pointed out.

There’s a quote from Salerno that comes to mind regarding his level of autonomy. Fat Tony was picked up on wire saying “he’d have to clear it with the boss” (paraphrasing) in regards to a list of associates proposed for induction that was passed to him. I believe the list was associated from other families (for some reason I want to say Lucchese Family?) and Tony still had to run it by chin so Tony had autonomy and lots of influence but didn’t have the final say over whether a guy could or couldn’t get his button, that decision would have to be OK’d by Gigante.

I believe Fat Tony had the biggest numbers operation in the country and was a part of a traditional Genovese stronghold in the 116th Street Crew. Other members and families regularly bet with him and I believe the only power he didn’t hold was the final say on who is inducted and who is getting murdered.

Tony could’ve easily flipped; like everyone in the generation after him started doing, and told the feds nah I’m not the boss and gave them all the info on Chin back in ‘86 but he took the 100 years on the chin (pun intended) and died in the can while chin was on the street for another decade or so.

[ChicagoOutfit]

Also, I’d love to know about any interactions and interests shared between the Genovese and Chicago in the 80s and 90s too.

I’m sure Chin never had any direct interactions but any info regarding the two families in that time period when Chin was boss would be very interesting.

[Ryan98366]

Always conflicting information on this. Never sure how the FBI and cops didn't know this seeing how it was openly known by mafioso all over.

Let's be honest, I bet Chin never did a making ceremony. He wouldn't meet with just any made guy. He just used this to insulate himself. It worked.

[Pogo The Clown]

A better term for Salerno would be Acting Boss. He was the number 2 guy in the whole family.


Pogo

[Wiseguy]

Always conflicting information on this. Never sure how the FBI and cops didn't know this seeing how it was openly known by mafioso all over.

Let's be honest, I bet Chin never did a making ceremony. He wouldn't meet with just any made guy. He just used this to insulate himself. It worked.

You may be right. Fat Tony said, "I made all the guys." Chin even seemed to resent attending Commission meetings if he felt it wasn't warranted.

A better term for Salerno would be Acting Boss. He was the number 2 guy in the whole family.


Pogo

Exactly.

[Ivan]

Supposedly Fat Tony had a wide degree of autonomy. Not only running his own rackets but also representing the family at Commission meetings, holding making ceremonies, dealing with other families, etc. He wasn't some powerless front boss. But he had to clear any major decisions with Chin.

Not as wide as he would have liked, apparently, as there is a wiretap of him complaining to I think Tony Ducks about how he had to clear too many things with Chin and how Chin kept overruling him, and he was sick of it and wanted to retire.

[Antiliar]

Also, I’d love to know about any interactions and interests shared between the Genovese and Chicago in the 80s and 90s too.

I’m sure Chin never had any direct interactions but any info regarding the two families in that time period when Chin was boss would be very interesting.

Mike Magnafichi said he and a boss went to New York after Castellano was killed to register their disapproval. I might have written about it in a previous thread. Solly D later met some Gambino guys while prison and asked about using Bruce Cutler as his attorney. Jimmy Calandra knew him in prison too and said he liked him. Chicago was always close to the Genovese Family.

[B.]

A better term for Salerno would be Acting Boss. He was the number 2 guy in the whole family.


Pogo

100%.

Along with what Eboli said, I'd argue a similar arrangement goes back to Vito Genovese when he came back from Italy and ran his own faction as underboss to Costello. We know he was heavily involved in national politics and directing a lot of the Family on his own. Was a lot like Salerno but it wasn't enough for Genovese.

Or if you want to go way back, Giuseppe Morello was Joe Masseria's underboss. Enough said on that.

The Genovese and Gambino Families tend to promote guys to underboss who are a power unto themselves over a certain faction, while the Bonanno, Colombo, and Lucchese Families have a history of promoting underbosses from within the boss's own powerbase. Might have to do with their different sizes.

[Coloboy]

A better term for Salerno would be Acting Boss. He was the number 2 guy in the whole family.


Pogo

100%.

Along with what Eboli said, I'd argue a similar arrangement goes back to Vito Genovese when he came back from Italy and ran his own faction as underboss to Costello. We know he was heavily involved in national politics and directing a lot of the Family on his own. Was a lot like Salerno but it wasn't enough for Genovese.

Or if you want to go way back, Giuseppe Morello was Joe Masseria's underboss. Enough said on that.

The Genovese and Gambino Families tend to promote guys to underboss who are a power unto themselves over a certain faction, while the Bonanno, Colombo, and Lucchese Families have a history of promoting underbosses from within the boss's own powerbase. Might have to do with their different sizes.

It seems Chicago had a similar set up with their day to day boss and his underboss as well. Typically two guys from different factions who each held significant power. Thinking of set ups like Aiuppa/Cerone and Carlisi/Difronzo. My feeling was this was always intentional in order to split the power base to help ensure peace.

[Wiseguy]

Supposedly Fat Tony had a wide degree of autonomy. Not only running his own rackets but also representing the family at Commission meetings, holding making ceremonies, dealing with other families, etc. He wasn't some powerless front boss. But he had to clear any major decisions with Chin.

Not as wide as he would have liked, apparently, as there is a wiretap of him complaining to I think Tony Ducks about how he had to clear too many things with Chin and how Chin kept overruling him, and he was sick of it and wanted to retire.

Yeah, he was complaining how if Chin and Benny Squint didn't like how he was running things, they could have the job back.

[PolackTony]

A better term for Salerno would be Acting Boss. He was the number 2 guy in the whole family.


Pogo

100%.

Along with what Eboli said, I'd argue a similar arrangement goes back to Vito Genovese when he came back from Italy and ran his own faction as underboss to Costello. We know he was heavily involved in national politics and directing a lot of the Family on his own. Was a lot like Salerno but it wasn't enough for Genovese.

Or if you want to go way back, Giuseppe Morello was Joe Masseria's underboss. Enough said on that.

The Genovese and Gambino Families tend to promote guys to underboss who are a power unto themselves over a certain faction, while the Bonanno, Colombo, and Lucchese Families have a history of promoting underbosses from within the boss's own powerbase. Might have to do with their different sizes.

It seems Chicago had a similar set up with their day to day boss and his underboss as well. Typically two guys from different factions who each held significant power. Thinking of set ups like Aiuppa/Cerone and Carlisi/Difronzo. My feeling was this was always intentional in order to split the power base to help ensure peace.

This has been my interpretation as well. The underboss or “number 2” in Chicago was something like a power sharing agreement between two dominant crews/factions/power bases in the family. Historically the dominant factions have been Taylor St (and its successors in the Buccieri and Battaglia crews), Elmwood Park, and the Southside (Chinatown and the Loop). One will note that while they had influential capodecinas who were powerful bosses and members of the “board” in Ross Prio and Frank LaPorte, the old Northside and Chi Heights/South Burbs crews have never held these top positions.