In light of the recent Colombo bust, my observations.

[Chopper]

When I look at you, you know what I see? A man without a country. Not hard enough for this right here and maybe, just maybe, not smart enough for them out there.

[Villain]

Some great info here @ Villian....

"This article challenges the alien conspiracy theory and argues that the development of organized crime in Chicago was not related to the emergence of the Sicilian Mafia, but was rooted in the social structure of American
society. Specifically, the argument presented here ties organized crime to strain theory and the emergence of machine politics in Chicago. From 19th-century vice syndicates to the modern-day Outfit, organized crime in Chicago could not have existed without the official blessing of those who controlled municipal, county, and state government. Organized crime was not imported from Sicily but was bred in the socially disorganized slums of Chicago where elected officials routinely franchised vice and crime in exchange for money and votes."


https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... JsbnLB-xlr

[gohnjotti]

I feel this is lost, even to the most strident mafia researcher who can recite crimes and dates. It's a society of members who are willing to resort to crime more than it is a criminal society. Members don't wake up everyday thinking how to commit crimes purely for the sake of doing so, they wake up and go about their business and are willing to resort to illegal means if it will further benefit their economic interests. They don't consider themselves criminals because crime isn't their primary intention, it's a means to an end in what they are vested in. Hence why the term "soldier" is misleading because they aren't grunts awaiting command, they just don't hold any formal rank within the society.

Joe Bonanno described it nicely in his autobiography. Obviously he was covering his own ass, but he described his role as a boss (or "father" as he called it) as being all about connections. His role was an intermediator, a connector between two interested parties. This is why there is often overlap between criminal conspiracies and legal 'conspiracies' to do business. Unions are a good example. When Dino Calabro became the captain of Ralph Scopo Jr., he secured his friends jobs as 'coffee boys.' This wasn't inherantly illegal (although it falls under the labor racketeering because they're Colombos), because the employed coffee boys actually did their job. It wasn't a no-show, it was just an incredibly lucrative gig that allowed a sole trader to monopolize selling food and beverages to construction site employees. Reynold Maragni was charged with labor racketeering for the exact same thing. But then, these connections melt over into the criminal sphere. Dino Calabro's brother Vincenzo has sports betting sheets, so Dino hooks up Vincenzo at the union sites to operate there. People like Ben Castellazzo have a connection at LaQuila Concrete, so Castellazzo makes sure LaQuila gets union gigs from Scopo Jr. in exchange for kickbacks from LaQuila. It's all about mutual connections and making sure members of the crime family can make as much money as people. It's less about an overall "criminal conspiracy" and more about connections.

The only thing that makes the Mafia an actual entity, rather than a collection of loose connections, is their perceived collective power. That's the only criminal currency they wield. Rather than, as you said, a 'drug gang' or a hit squad, the Mafia has no common criminality among their members, aside from their ability to threaten violence. This ability isn't reflective of an actual ability commit violence; simply a perceived ability, one that's ingrained in New York's consciousness. The tale of Thomas Scorcia vs Dominick Ricigliano is an example. A fear of law enforcement and a general ineptitude around violence meant that Scorcia - for all his boasting - couldn't actually inflict any physical harm on a rival loanshark (with no Mafia ties) who even poached Scorcia's customers.

[Wiseguy]

The only thing that makes the Mafia an actual entity, rather than a collection of loose connections, is their perceived collective power.

It's more than that. There's a real, functioning hierarchy at work with orders going down the ladder and money going up. Crews often working together, electing new administrations, etc.

This ability isn't reflective of an actual ability commit violence; simply a perceived ability, one that's ingrained in New York's consciousness.

This depends on who you're talking about. Others are more than capable and willing to follow through on those threats. Though I will agree the Mafia has been able to trade on its reputation for a long time now.

[Villain]

Lawyer: Its not an overall criminal conspiracy but instead its more about connections, just like Facebook.

Judge: Thats what I needed to hear.

[CabriniGreen]

The only thing that makes the Mafia an actual entity, rather than a collection of loose connections, is their perceived collective power.

It's more than that. There's a real, functioning hierarchy at work with orders going down the ladder and money going up. Crews often working together, electing new administrations, etc.

This^^^^ I mean it's one of THE main criteria we use that separates the mafia FROM all the other criminal organizations.... where we going with this now?

Yall starting to sound like it's still the 50s and the "Mafia doesnt exist".....

[CabriniGreen]

This ability isn't reflective of an actual ability commit violence; simply a perceived ability, one that's ingrained in New York's consciousness.

This depends on who you're talking about. Others are more than capable and willing to follow through on those threats. Though I will agree the Mafia has been able to trade on its reputation for a long time now.

This ties into what I posted about Dickes theory on the Monopoly on the use of violence. Guiliani really put an end to the mobs wanton killings. He firmly established the State of NYs monopoly on the use of violence. Its doesnt make sense from a cost- benefit standpoint to use murder as a problem solving mechanism, even for internal discipline, it seems.

It makes sense today, that the guys that are still willing to go there have the power in NY, guys with that rep, like Mancuso, or DeSantis.

This is also why I made a kind of extrapolation on Dickes theory, when I said a monopoly on the use of CAPITAL. At one time, the mafia could compete with corporations, as far as investments in, OR favors FOR politicians. They could make campaign donations, promise certain blocks of voters support. Nowadays, the money has to be so clean, how do you compete with legit corporations? You got dirty money in a briefcase, the corporation has clean money out of an account, throwing fundraisers out in the open. I feel like they must have a lot of " Legacy" contacts.


Openly associating with a Wiseguy today is political suicide. They cant guarantee you votes in NY, and they cant compete with corporate influence as far as money goes. We shoulda saw a "Mafia" lobby for the legal sportsbooks..... in the same way they were trying to get in position for Atlantic City in the 70s.

This is why i think maybe in Italy, theres a lot of ambiguity, but not in the States, we have RICO.


A Michele Navarra: Doctor? Sure. He also injected an 11 year old with poison. Does the fact hes a Doctor make him NOT a criminal? It's strange logic to me. The idea they are mafiosi FIRST, and criminals second?

Even if often, you have to commit crime to become a member, OR, you allow your legitimate standing or position to be co-opted for the purposes of the organization, which usually tend to be in opposition to the law.

Are we saying the LAW is illegitimate?

[Villain]

Michele Navarra: Doctor? Sure. He also injected an 11 year old with poison. Does the fact hes a Doctor make him NOT a criminal? It's strange logic to me. The idea they are mafiosi FIRST, and criminals second?

Even if often, you have to commit crime to become a member, OR, you allow your legitimate standing or position to be co-opted for the purposes of the organization, which usually tend to be in opposition to the law.

Nice example

[Villain]

I hope this place doesnt become a mafia fan forum where OC is constantly glorified...we are here to show other people on how real evil works and how it ends and how to avoid it, not to justify it

[Wiseguy]

We shoulda saw a "Mafia" lobby for the legal sportsbooks..... in the same way they were trying to get in position for Atlantic City in the 70s.

The mob was able to indirectly benefit from casinos in Atlantic City. Land sales, construction, Local 54, ancillary services, a larger market for street rackets. But it's not like they were skimming money directly out of the casinos or owned stock in them. Regulation and controls prevented that.

The same regulation is being used with the legal sportsbooks. But I don't see many ways the mob can benefit, directly or indirectly, from legalized sports betting. Even if it creates more gambling addicts who eventually turn to a mob bookie, how much does that offset whatever players they lose to legal sportsbooks?

[gohnjotti]

The only thing that makes the Mafia an actual entity, rather than a collection of loose connections, is their perceived collective power.

It's more than that. There's a real, functioning hierarchy at work with orders going down the ladder and money going up. Crews often working together, electing new administrations, etc.

This ability isn't reflective of an actual ability commit violence; simply a perceived ability, one that's ingrained in New York's consciousness.

This depends on who you're talking about. Others are more than capable and willing to follow through on those threats. Though I will agree the Mafia has been able to trade on its reputation for a long time now.

You make an excellent point.

[B.]

I hope this place doesnt become a mafia fan forum where OC is constantly glorified...we are here to show other people on how real evil works and how it ends and how to avoid it, not to justify it

Sounds like John Alite needs to come here and give a PSA for the kids haha.

Speaking for myself, I'm only interested in talking about the mafia accurately. That includes all of the violence, corruption, etc. but there are a lot of elements at play in this group's history which I think Chris Christie was getting at when he started this thread. There's not really a one size fits all description of it like with gangs and other organized crime.

There isn't even a one size fits all within the mafia. Talking about Chicago vs. San Jose is going to be a much different conversation, so that is a part of this too. What's so interesting about that is both Families were just as much of a recognized mafia organization as the other when they were active even though they operated differently.

Anyway, I appreciate everyone's POV here.

[CabriniGreen]

We shoulda saw a "Mafia" lobby for the legal sportsbooks..... in the same way they were trying to get in position for Atlantic City in the 70s.

The mob was able to indirectly benefit from casinos in Atlantic City. Land sales, construction, Local 54, ancillary services, a larger market for street rackets. But it's not like they were skimming money directly out of the casinos or owned stock in them. Regulation and controls prevented that.

The same regulation is being used with the legal sportsbooks. But I don't see many ways the mob can benefit, directly or indirectly, from legalized sports betting. Even if it creates more gambling addicts who eventually turn to a mob bookie, how much does that offset whatever players they lose to legal sportsbooks?

No, I was trying to make a larger, macro argument. Basically, they had sports betting all to themselves for a hundred years, yet didnt have the foresight to get in position for the legalized books.

This can be repeated all over. They shoulda had 3 or 4 Brownis Ferris for carting, one for Avellino, one for Faaila, one for Allie Shades. If Profaci has a huge liquor distributorship, many others should too, in fact, they should outright own some brands, and before you say no, fucking RAPPERS do this today.

Colavita olive oil? There should be cheese, and Tomato paste, and olives, and who knows what..( I wonder if this is what the Inzerillos had going on..) think Cali and his fruits and veggies. It should ALL be legit. Linens, Trucking, Garment Center Manufacturing, Taxis, anything with a Union attached to it.......

This ties into what Chris was saying about "Criminality for the sake of criminality". Its why I brought up the Jews and Irish. They TRULY seemed to USE crime as a means to an end. To get out the ghetto and into politics and business. And then, used criminality within the legal framework to further their own interest.

Whereas the Italians are literally dedicated to crime families. We dont call them " Legitimate business cartels", we call them ........CRIME FAMILIES. Its 2021 and they are still getting indicted for street stuff, or low level scams. They dont turn a blind eye to crime in favor of legitimacy.


I was watching the MBA pod episode on Old Bridge. Pennisi was talking about how Vollaro had a successful Trucking company. He was dumbfounded as to why he got caught up selling cocaine. It seems to me he might have wanted to use his Trucking to further a drug operation, he didn't resort to coke to help his trucking business.


There has to be countless examples ........

[Wiseguy]

No, I was trying to make a larger, macro argument. Basically, they had sports betting all to themselves for a hundred years, yet didnt have the foresight to get in position for the legalized books.

This can be repeated all over. They shoulda had 3 or 4 Brownis Ferris for carting, one for Avellino, one for Faaila, one for Allie Shades. If Profaci has a huge liquor distributorship, many others should too, in fact, they should outright own some brands, and before you say no, fucking RAPPERS do this today.

Yes, those rappers are pretend gangsters.

Colavita olive oil? There should be cheese, and Tomato paste, and olives, and who knows what..( I wonder if this is what the Inzerillos had going on..) think Cali and his fruits and veggies. It should ALL be legit. Linens, Trucking, Garment Center Manufacturing, Taxis, anything with a Union attached to it.......

And then they should have bought the Vatican's 25% stake in Immobiliare for $600 million...

This ties into what Chris was saying about "Criminality for the sake of criminality". Its why I brought up the Jews and Irish. They TRULY seemed to USE crime as a means to an end. To get out the ghetto and into politics and business. And then, used criminality within the legal framework to further their own interest.

Whereas the Italians are literally dedicated to crime families. We dont call them " Legitimate business cartels", we call them ........CRIME FAMILIES. Its 2021 and they are still getting indicted for street stuff, or low level scams. They dont turn a blind eye to crime in favor of legitimacy.


I was watching the MBA pod episode on Old Bridge. Pennisi was talking about how Vollaro had a successful Trucking company. He was dumbfounded as to why he got caught up selling cocaine. It seems to me he might have wanted to use his Trucking to further a drug operation, he didn't resort to coke to help his trucking business.


There has to be countless examples ........

I largely agree with this. The nature of LCN is such that, just because they got involved in legitimate business, that doesn't mean they ever abandoned the street rackets.

Maybe I'm stating the obvious but the Irish and Jewish examples end once those gangsters died out and their descendants down through the years went legit. It's not like there's a legitimate version of the Bugs and Meyer Mob operating somewhere that can trace its roots back to that time. And if any descendant of and Irish or Jewish gangster today happens to be crooked, in business or politics or whatever, it's not in behalf of a larger organization that is the legitimate heir to some group from the bootlegging days.

[Ivan]

Maybe I'm stating the obvious but the Irish and Jewish examples end once those gangsters died out and their descendants down through the years went legit.

This is actually what happened even to the Italians in some of the cities with a family that went extinct. Cosa Nostra is gone there but you see a lot of familiar surnames in the legitimate upper-middle class and wealthy spheres.