In light of the recent Colombo bust, my observations.

[B.]

Good info, Tony. Bet there's a lot of common last names.

[Wiseguy]

If you already havent...whenever you have the time pls read these two articles bro...regarding who started what in Chicago (i think the same situation was on the east coast at the time because this other groups had a national network)...and later pls give me your most honest opinion

viewtopic.php?f=30&t=7242 (mostly organizational stuff but it still explains my theory)

viewtopic.php?f=30&t=52 (i would prefer to read this one first but still it doesnt matter)

I think those extensive breakdowns are interesting and informative but not necessarily applicable to the original point. At least the one I was making when I posted the Jacobs quote. No other criminal group, before or since, has done all those things he listed. Let alone to the level or for as long as LCN did.

[Villain]

If you already havent...whenever you have the time pls read these two articles bro...regarding who started what in Chicago (i think the same situation was on the east coast at the time because this other groups had a national network)...and later pls give me your most honest opinion

viewtopic.php?f=30&t=7242 (mostly organizational stuff but it still explains my theory)

viewtopic.php?f=30&t=52 (i would prefer to read this one first but still it doesnt matter)

I think those extensive breakdowns are interesting and informative but not necessarily applicable to the original point. At least the one I was making when I posted the Jacobs quote. No other criminal group, before or since, has done all those things he listed. Let alone to the level or for as long as LCN did.

"Let alone to the level or for as long as LCN did." - i previously agreed with this

"No other criminal group, before or since, has done all those things he listed." - but I have huge doubts about this statement

For example, lets make a distinction on who was involved in what and where, between CN and the Irish mob in Chicago from the mid 19th century until the end of the 1900s....

The Italian Mafia was involved in:

- counterfeiting (possibly on national level)

- extortion (only in Italian neighborhoods)

- political corruption (to an extent since most Mafiosi and Cammoristi worked as precinct captains for other ethnic political crime bosses, or few aldermen only in Italian areas around the North/West side)

- legitimate enterprises (only in Italian neighborhoods)

- bombings

- murder


The Irish Mob was involved in:

- prostitution (in almost every area around the city, especially the Loop and Near South Side and also on national level)

- extortion and protection racket (in almost every area around the city, including unions)

- gambling and bookmaking (on national level, including policy and race tracks)

- counterfeiting

- political corruption (in almost every ward around the city, including the judicial and police system)

- bounty jumping rings - (they had a huge ring that became a big time war/military racket)

- legitimate enterprises (on national level)

- bombings

- murder (occasionally here and there)

[Wiseguy]

"Let alone to the level or for as long as LCN did." - i previously agreed with this

"No other criminal group, before or since, has done all those things he listed." - but I have huge doubts about this statement

For example, lets make a distinction on who was involved in what and where, between CN and the Irish mob in Chicago from the mid 19th century until the end of the 1900s....

The Italian Mafia was involved in:

- counterfeiting (possibly on national level)

- extortion (only in Italian neighborhoods)

- political corruption (to an extent since most Mafiosi and Cammoristi worked as precinct captains for other ethnic political crime bosses, or few aldermen only in Italian areas around the North/West side)

- legitimate enterprises (only in Italian neighborhoods)

- bombings

- murder


The Irish Mob was involved in:

- prostitution (in almost every area around the city, especially the Loop and Near South Side and also on national level)

- extortion and protection racket (in almost every area around the city, including unions)

- gambling and bookmaking (on national level, including policy and race tracks)

- counterfeiting

- political corruption (in almost every ward around the city, including the judicial and police system)

- bounty jumping rings - (they had a huge ring that became a big time war/military racket)

- legitimate enterprises (on national level)

- bombings

- murder (occasionally here and there)

What does the relative status of Irish and Italian OC in the later half of the 19th century have to do with anything? We're not talking if LCN was necessarily the first to commit various forms of organized crime.

"No other criminal organization [in the United States] has controlled labor unions, organized employer cartels, operated as a rationalizing force in major industries, and functioned as a bridge between the upperworld and the underworld."

Once again, what other criminal organization to date has done all of these things? What you've posted about the early Irish groups doesn't seem to completely fit this description. And, for example, what you wrote about the Grey Wolves seems more a small group of corrupt politicians running their own schemes than a formal criminal organization.

[Villain]

What does the relative status of Irish and Italian OC in the later half of the 19th century have to do with anything? We're not talking if LCN was necessarily the first to commit various forms of organized crime.

"No other criminal organization [in the United States] has controlled labor unions, organized employer cartels, operated as a rationalizing force in major industries, and functioned as a bridge between the upperworld and the underworld."

Once again, what other criminal organization to date has done all of these things? What you've posted about the early Irish groups doesn't seem to completely fit this description. And, for example, what you wrote about the Grey Wolves seems more a small group of corrupt politicians running their own schemes than a formal criminal organization.

Yes, Im talking about on who first started what and later who inherited some of the rackets. As you can see, during those days the Italian mafia didnt dominate gambling and they were far from controlling the prostitution racket, the two most profitable schemes from those days.

As for your statement "small group of corrupt politicians running their own schemes than a formal criminal organization"...you're completely wrong about that and ill show you why...

The so-called formal Irish organization in Chicago was formed during the early 1860s around Bridgeport, in an area known as the “Terror District” and was dominated by Irish population. This group first started as the principal supplier for dice and card games in Chicago during those days.

The boss of this group was King Mike McDonald and he headed the gang for almost 50 years. His top lieutenants were Hall Varnell (corruption and street connections), Calvin Paige (gambling and prostitution) and James O'Leary (gambling). Guys like Tom McGinnis who kept in line all operators, or Patsy King who allegedly invented the policy game and represented it to the African-American racketeers. Other guys were George Murray, John Ryan, Dickie Dean, John Condon, "Appetite Bill” Langdon, Kid Miller, the Wallace brothers, Pat O'Maley etc.

The group counted between 40 and 50 members and they controlled an army of gambling operators and pimps, all loyal to King Mike. The split from their criminal empire was allegedly divided in three ways. 40 % went to the boys, 20% went to the police and other government officals,and 40% went to the boss and his top lieutenants.

In 1873 they created the first real corrupted political machine of Chicago which became known as "Mike McDonald’s Democrats," AND THATS WHEN the Grey Wolves were born, which you sadly call them a small group who ran their own scheme.

No, the Grey Wolves were only a part of this large group, the same way as Alex, Marcy, Roti and D'Arco were part of the Outfit decades later. King Mike’s Democrats elected Carter Harrison as Mayor in 1879.The alliance between the gambling operators and politicians in Chicago proved to be very powerful. Harrison, with the help of King Mikes group, served four consecutive terms as Mayor from 1879 to 1887. The Grey Wolves lasted until the 1930s or around 60 years and their two most famous members were Kenna and Coughlin. As youngsters they were brought by Varnell and later King Mike made them political crime bosses.

Because of this particular crime group, Chicago became the most important gambling center north of New Orleans and west of the Allegheny Mountains. King Mike expanded his gambling operations in Chicago big time, and there was a stretch of two blocks on Randolph between Clark and State Streets and was known as "Hair Trigger Block". It was named because of the large number of shootings and murders that occurred from the disagreements in the gambling joints. This area was also known as the "Gamblers Row."

During the mid 1870s, there were many other vice districts in Chicago and most notorious were the Little Cheyenne, Satan’s Mile, Whiskey Row, and the Levee. These guys controlled between 350 and 400 brothels only around the Levee at the time.

Sometime during the early 1900s, all of Chicago’s big time racketeers had a secret “commission meeting”, which was the first big time meeting of underworld figures in Chicago’s criminal history. They created a new gambling syndicate and divided it into four groups and they struck a deal that no one would not gain an attempt to take over each others territories and to upper hand the racetracks, since it was the biggest gambling business in Chicago at the time. King Mike's group was represented by O'Leary, Kenna and Coughlin.

Later it was for Kenna and Coughlin who showed Big Jim Colosimo all the rackets and showed him the big picture....and also, before going against each other, previously Mafia boss Tony D'Andrea learned a lot from Johnny Powers. The Outfit didnt fully entered the unions until the murder of Moss Enright who in turn was allegedly a leftover of that same Irish group.

[Wiseguy]

Yes, Im talking about on who first started what and later who inherited some of the rackets. As you can see, during those days the Italian mafia didnt dominate gambling and they were far from controlling the prostitution racket, the two most profitable schemes from those days.

As for your statement "small group of corrupt politicians running their own schemes than a formal criminal organization"...you're completely wrong about that and ill show you why...

The so-called formal Irish organization in Chicago was formed during the early 1860s around Bridgeport, in an area known as the “Terror District” and was dominated by Irish population. This group first started as the principal supplier for dice and card games in Chicago during those days.

The boss of this group was King Mike McDonald and he headed the gang for almost 50 years. His top lieutenants were Hall Varnell (corruption and street connections), Calvin Paige (gambling and prostitution) and James O'Leary (gambling). Guys like Tom McGinnis who kept in line all operators, or Patsy King who allegedly invented the policy game and represented it to the African-American racketeers. Other guys were George Murray, John Ryan, Dickie Dean, John Condon, "Appetite Bill” Langdon, Kid Miller, the Wallace brothers, Pat O'Maley etc.

The group counted between 40 and 50 members and they controlled an army of gambling operators and pimps, all loyal to King Mike. The split from their criminal empire was allegedly divided in three ways. 40 % went to the boys, 20% went to the police and other government officals,and 40% went to the boss and his top lieutenants.

In 1873 they created the first real corrupted political machine of Chicago which became known as "Mike McDonald’s Democrats," AND THATS WHEN the Grey Wolves were born, which you sadly call them a small group who ran their own scheme.

No, the Grey Wolves were only a part of this large group, the same way as Alex, Marcy, Roti and D'Arco were part of the Outfit decades later. King Mike’s Democrats elected Carter Harrison as Mayor in 1879.The alliance between the gambling operators and politicians in Chicago proved to be very powerful. Harrison, with the help of King Mikes group, served four consecutive terms as Mayor from 1879 to 1887. The Grey Wolves lasted until the 1930s or around 60 years and their two most famous members were Kenna and Coughlin. As youngsters they were brought by Varnell and later King Mike made them political crime bosses.

Because of this particular crime group, Chicago became the most important gambling center north of New Orleans and west of the Allegheny Mountains. King Mike expanded his gambling operations in Chicago big time, and there was a stretch of two blocks on Randolph between Clark and State Streets and was known as "Hair Trigger Block". It was named because of the large number of shootings and murders that occurred from the disagreements in the gambling joints. This area was also known as the "Gamblers Row."

During the mid 1870s, there were many other vice districts in Chicago and most notorious were the Little Cheyenne, Satan’s Mile, Whiskey Row, and the Levee. These guys controlled between 350 and 400 brothels only around the Levee at the time.

Sometime during the early 1900s, all of Chicago’s big time racketeers had a secret “commission meeting”, which was the first big time meeting of underworld figures in Chicago’s criminal history. They created a new gambling syndicate and divided it into four groups and they struck a deal that no one would not gain an attempt to take over each others territories and to upper hand the racetracks, since it was the biggest gambling business in Chicago at the time. King Mike's group was represented by O'Leary, Kenna and Coughlin.

Later it was for Kenna and Coughlin who showed Big Jim Colosimo all the rackets and showed him the big picture....and also, before going against each other, previously Mafia boss Tony D'Andrea learned a lot from Johnny Powers. The Outfit didnt fully entered the unions until the murder of Moss Enright who in turn was allegedly a leftover of that same Irish group.

Again, I'm not talking so much about who was into what racket first. More that no other groups can fit the criteria I've mentioned.

In your post above, I certainly see political corruption and control of vice, which in a sense could be termed a "bridge between the upperworld and the underworld." A lot of groups, in various cities, particularly in the distant past, could claim that much. But I'm still not seeing this group, or others, also "controlling labor unions, organizing employer cartels, and operating as a rationalizing force in major industries." Again, I'm talking all four criteria mentioned; to say nothing of approaching anything close to the LCN in the past.

[B.]

Back to the point on Bonanno family tribute. Massino was taking monthly tribute from a select group of Captains. His earnings from his testimony. If I remember right Gigante was the same way in that he only took tribute from a few selected captain. Seems it was more a security meassure against indictment than a no tribute policy in the family.

His sports book was making 10,000-12,000 a week (so some weeks it was less) = 480,000-576,000 max (split with Vitale and likely others)

8,000 a month from video poker machines = 96,000 a year

4,000 a year from that electrician (split with member Anthony Mannone) = 2,000 a year

150,000-160,000 Christmas tribute

Capo monthly tributes:
Coppa = 2,000-6,500 = 24,000-78,000 a year
Cantarella = 1,200-1,500 = 14,000-18,000 a year
Urso = 500-600 = 6,000-7,200 a year
DeFilippo = 2,000 = 24,000 a year

Yearly total = 1,228,000-1,393,200

Adjusted for inflation in 2000 dollars = 1,841,000-2,088,000 today. Though of course it will be a lot less since we know that sports betting and loansharking money was being split with Vitale and possibly others involved.

Seems like we're having a different debate.

You seem to have thought I was saying Massino never received money from anybody. There is a logical difference between someone giving him money and him demanding money. My point was about the latter.

Vitale said he wasn't required to kick up money but did so voluntarily out of respect for Massino because he owed him for bringing him in. A far as we know the captains you mentioned did the same, though I'm not in a position to editorialize. Maybe they felt compelled to do it, but Massino testified even with the Christmas tribute that broke members didn't have to pay. Peter Zuccaro said he was never required to pay money to Frank Bonomo even though Bonomo represented him, so it appears to have involved other members as well.

Just wanted to make sure we're having the same argument because your point is about Massino receiving money from people, not tribute being a requirement of being a Bonanno member/associate.

[B.]

Here's an analogy Pogo:

- If your wife sleeps with you to make you a happy husband, that is different from you demanding your wife sleep with you through coercion or abuse. It's a fine line but the line is there.

[Pogo The Clown]

Is there a real difference? A Boss doesn't have to demand tribute since it is implied that he is entitled to it. It is not as if the captains are going to go up to him and tell that they aren't giving him anything. That doesn't tend to end well as history has shown. All these guys aren't giving him money out of the kindness of their hearts.


Pogo

[B.]

You're welcome to interpret it, I'm just going with what multiple Bonanno figures said in testimony and want to make sure we're talking about the same thing. They made the distinction, not me.

[Villain]

But I'm still not seeing this group, or others, also "controlling labor unions, organizing employer cartels, and operating as a rationalizing force in major industries." Again, I'm talking all four criteria mentioned; to say nothing of approaching anything close to the LCN in the past.

What about these examples?

During the early 1880's they purchased the Chicago Globe newspaper and King Mike also took over as manager of Chicago`s first elevated rail system, the Lake Street Line, which became known in gambling circles as "Mike`s Upstairs Railroad". The First Ward was the most strategic, containing the Loop, named for the encirclement of elevated railway tracks of the Chicago Transit Authority, the Near West Side, and the Near South Side. Not only were there brothels and gambling houses, but these guys also owned many department stores, restaurants, hotels and even banks. These CTA trains brought thousands of workers and shoppers downtown, contributing to the large financial and economic growth of the city. This was in fact Mike's empire.

In 1884 King Mike built a four-story building which was placed next to Chicago’s City Hall. It was a big gambling parlor at Clark and Monroe known as the Store which reportedly was the largest liquor and gambling house in Chicago. Story goes that every game in it was fixed and soon became the gambling center and one of the biggest attractions in Chicago. On the first floor he had a legitimate liquor store and a bar, the gambling rooms were placed on the 2nd floor, on the 3rd floor Mike had its own private residence and on the 4th floor were rooms filled with prostitutes.

By 1885, bookmaking was introduced to the public and also the business of handling wagers on horse races and so Mike's group formed a bookmaking syndicate which controlled gambling at the Chicago and Indiana race tracks. There are reports that in just one season Mike’s syndicate alone profited to the extent of $900,000,which was a lot of money in those days.

King Mike was also very interested in sports, especially in boxing. It was Mike who, with the help of his lieutenants Hall Varnell and Jerry Dunn, gave the famous boxer John L. Sullivan the backing that enabled him to make his bid for the world’s heavyweight boxing championship in 1892. Later another one of Mike’s associates Pat Sheedy became Sullivans manager.

Moss Enright was in the union racketeering business since the late 1900's and in 1920 he was killed on Colosimos orders. Some mob historians claimed that later Colosimo’s demise was in fact retaliation for the Enright hit.

[CabriniGreen]

Some great info here @ Villian....

I wanna look at some contemporary examples... to illustrate the criminality aspect over the legitimate....


1. Arrilotta - Made guy. West Side, the " Ivey League".
You know what threw me about this guy? He got involved in the streets, he himself said he didnt give education much interest. He gets in debt 100k to a shylock, then he just....... goes and ask his Dad for the 100k. Then proceeds to say his Dad had a very successful flower business.

Now, I was confused, like..... why didnt you just go into the family's LEGITIMATE BUSINESS? Or at least, try to expand it? If he wasnt into flowers, he coulda went to his DAD, not a LOANSHARK, for the 100k and started a legit business. No, he goes to the streets. And not a Union racket, or gambling either. No, he goes and sell the Mexican brick weed.

2. Leandro Greco - Scion of a mafia dynasty in Sicily.... but the son of a law abiding citizen. His father didnt get involved in crime, and instead became I think, a movie director.

Leandro however, takes after his Grandfather, Michele and becomes the latest in the line of Greco clan bosses.
I doubt the clan threw its resources and full support behind the elder Grecos film endeavors. Hes probably looked at as a " civilian". Leandro could have run for public office, anything. He became a mafiosi.

Whom do we think holds the greater respect? The citizen? Or the Boss?


3. Paolo Bontade - again, son of a mafia Scion. Could run for Mayor probably, or started ANYTHING legit, but his name pops up in criminal investigations.


4. Leonardo Rizzuto - Scion of a powerful mafiosi. An actual lawyer, but just couldnt stay legitimate. Hell, same with the construction based murdered son, Nick jr.

5. The Campos thing - One of the reasons that indictment is silly to me is the inveterate "Hoodlumness"
of it. They couldnt just run a construction company, they had to shit where they ate.

What they did, is what I would expect if you put the typical gang leader in that position. Instead of trying to leverage the next 80 million dollar deal, you worried about floor tiles and a new bathroom.

Even that Hootie guy. Said he got a union job at like 18, in the PJs, I think. Decent money. I'm like, so why you still selling drugs?

[CabriniGreen]

Also, I gotta say, as a Chicagoan, not to place any claims on who has the greatest criminals, but its, and it shouldn't be, but it's annoying that so many think the pinnacle of OC for African Americans are the Crips and Bloods. We always saw them as like, little cousins or some shit. I dunno....

I found this old article, this was really some of the core objectives of the gang at the time.



https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.chicag ... y,amp.html



Now, this is a far cry from the mafia. But the idea of a gang developing a more sophisticated " Mission statement" if you will isnt all that farfetched..... This was like, being hammered home to the "troops" all the time..... it was actually oppressive if you were growing g up during g this time..... I closed my ears and eyes, ... lol

This report gives a little more context......

https://www.ngcrc.com/ngcrc/page14.htm

[PolackTony]

Some great info here @ Villian....

I wanna look at some contemporary examples... to illustrate the criminality aspect over the legitimate....


1. Arrilotta - Made guy. West Side, the " Ivey League".
You know what threw me about this guy? He got involved in the streets, he himself said he didnt give education much interest. He gets in debt 100k to a shylock, then he just....... goes and ask his Dad for the 100k. Then proceeds to say his Dad had a very successful flower business.

Now, I was confused, like..... why didnt you just go into the family's LEGITIMATE BUSINESS? Or at least, try to expand it? If he wasnt into flowers, he coulda went to his DAD, not a LOANSHARK, for the 100k and started a legit business. No, he goes to the streets. And not a Union racket, or gambling either. No, he goes and sell the Mexican brick weed.

2. Leandro Greco - Scion of a mafia dynasty in Sicily.... but the son of a law abiding citizen. His father didnt get involved in crime, and instead became I think, a movie director.

Leandro however, takes after his Grandfather, Michele and becomes the latest in the line of Greco clan bosses.
I doubt the clan threw its resources and full support behind the elder Grecos film endeavors. Hes probably looked at as a " civilian". Leandro could have run for public office, anything. He became a mafiosi.

Whom do we think holds the greater respect? The citizen? Or the Boss?


3. Paolo Bontade - again, son of a mafia Scion. Could run for Mayor probably, or started ANYTHING legit, but his name pops up in criminal investigations.


4. Leonardo Rizzuto - Scion of a powerful mafiosi. An actual lawyer, but just couldnt stay legitimate. Hell, same with the construction based murdered son, Nick jr.

5. The Campos thing - One of the reasons that indictment is silly to me is the inveterate "Hoodlumness"
of it. They couldnt just run a construction company, they had to shit where they ate.

What they did, is what I would expect if you put the typical gang leader in that position. Instead of trying to leverage the next 80 million dollar deal, you worried about floor tiles and a new bathroom.

Even that Hootie guy. Said he got a union job at like 18, in the PJs, I think. Decent money. I'm like, so why you still selling drugs?

[Wiseguy]

They just want their corners.