In light of the recent Colombo bust, my observations.

[CabriniGreen]

This is still a great thread, even if it's gotten a little tense.

@Chris


Look, apologies my man, but I really thought you started by saying the mafia wasnt really criminals, with an example of Maglioccos linen business, which I though ironic, with the mafia having a Garment Center cartel.

Also, I thought it ironic, you said the mafia isnt about turf or selling drugs, when I just read about the Zen family in Sicily, fighting over drug turf. And the huge dealing center in Messina. It was kinda funny to me.


And I posted tha⁹t Scilian article to illustrate the scope of criminal activities. Talvaruso is building apartments in Brazil, but it's a mistake to assume every clan has a Talvaruso. Theres Agricultural racketeering centered on Fruits and veggies, infiltration of police, newly minted mafia families, Catania has 887 betting centers, yet still using kids to peddle in the streets. And they have Masonic ties, all of that. They dont differentiate.

It's a Mosiac, a fabric, and every patch MATTERS! You cant sit and pick and choose, I guess is what I dont like. You cant zoom in on the patch with public works corruption, and ignore the Patch over here where they are poor and struggling. Its like you make more distinctions than even the mafia itself. I look at the WHOLE FABRIC, even if you guys think I ONLY look at drugs.....

And for the record, if sports betting is like Stocks to the underworld, then drugs is like oil. Who can claim to understand the economy if they dont follow stocks and energy? So I pay attention to whose in control, of the most profitable activities in the illegal economy. If you want to give more attention or importance to the nuances and relationships of the criminal political bureaucracy, i.e., the Organizational over the Operational, what the fuck? Go ahead, it's not wrong, but I dont think my approach is wrong either, you need both, not one or the other.


Drugs, bets, sex, these things are everyday, a Migrant or Covid-19 government subsidy windfall is nice, but limited and finite. It's like a contruction boom, there are ebbs and flows....

Also, I gotta say, as a Chicagoan, not to place any claims on who has the greatest criminals, but its, and it shouldn't be, but it's annoying that so many think the pinnacle of OC for African Americans are the Crips and Bloods. We always saw them as like, little cousins or some shit. I dunno....

I found this old article, this was really some of the core objectives of the gang at the time.



https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.chicag ... y,amp.html



Now, this is a far cry from the mafia. But the idea of a gang developing a more sophisticated " Mission statement" if you will isnt all that farfetched..... This was like, being hammered home to the "troops" all the time..... it was actually oppressive if you were growing g up during g this time..... I closed my ears and eyes, ... lol

[CabriniGreen]

This is still a great thread, even if it's gotten a little tense.

@Chris


Look, apologies my man, but I really thought you started by saying the mafia wasnt really criminals, with an example of Maglioccos linen business, which I though ironic, with the mafia having a Garment Center cartel.

Also, I thought it ironic, you said the mafia isnt about turf or selling drugs, when I just read about the Zen family in Sicily, fighting over drug turf. And the huge dealing center in Messina. It was kinda funny to me.


And I posted tha⁹t Scilian article to illustrate the scope of criminal activities. Talvaruso is building apartments in Brazil, but it's a mistake to assume every clan has a Talvaruso. Theres Agricultural racketeering centered on Fruits and veggies, infiltration of police, newly minted mafia families, Catania has 887 betting centers, yet still using kids to peddle in the streets. And they have Masonic ties, all of that. They dont differentiate.

It's a Mosiac, a fabric, and every patch MATTERS! You cant sit and pick and choose, I guess is what I dont like. You cant zoom in on the patch with public works corruption, and ignore the Patch over here where they are poor and struggling. Its like you make more distinctions than even the mafia itself. I look at the WHOLE FABRIC, even if you guys think I ONLY look at drugs.....

And for the record, if sports betting is like Stocks to the underworld, then drugs is like oil. Who can claim to understand the economy if they dont follow stocks and energy? So I pay attention to whose in control, of the most profitable activities in the illegal economy. If you want to give more attention or importance to the nuances and relationships of the criminal political bureaucracy, i.e., the Organizational over the Operational, what the fuck? Go ahead, it's not wrong, but I dont think my approach is wrong either, you need both, not one or the other.


Drugs, bets, sex, these things are everyday, a Migrant or Covid-19 government subsidy windfall is nice, but limited and finite. It's like a contruction boom, there are ebbs and flows....

Also, I gotta say, as a Chicagoan, not to place any claims on who has the greatest criminals, but its, and it shouldn't be, but it's annoying that so many think the pinnacle of OC for African Americans are the Crips and Bloods. We always saw them as like, little cousins or some shit. I dunno....

I found this old article, this was really some of the core objectives of the gang at the time.



https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.chicag ... y,amp.html



Now, this is a far cry from the mafia. But the idea of a gang developing a more sophisticated " Mission statement" if you will isnt all that farfetched..... This was like, being hammered home to the "troops" all the time..... it was actually oppressive if you were growing g up during g this time..... I closed my ears and eyes, ... lol

Or this one here..... did Crip and Bloods ever try to intimidate voters?

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm ... story.html

[eboli]

The mafia began as a bastardized replica of the old catholic military orders like the Knights Hospitaller. Just like the KH, it has prerequisites, an oath, and general rules for its members to follow. And just like the KH and similar orders, it builds up a cultural identity over time, based on its simplistic principles. Early on, both organizations relied heavily on the zeal of their members before transforming into prospering closed-off societies for the selected few. For example:

- to be a member of a holy order, you needed to be a Catholic Christian
- to be a member of the mafia, you need to be of Italian heritage

- holy order members swore an oath of poverty, chastity, and obedience and renounced the world
- mafia members swear an oath of loyalty that they'll burn in hell if they betray their crime family

- holy order members had basic rules to guide them in their duties for the order
- mafia members have basic rules to guide them in their responsibilities for the borgata

- the holy orders had a goal - to protect their catholic brothers visiting sites in the Holy Land while also carrying out military operations
- the mafia has a goal - to protect and advance the well-being of its members by any legitimate and illegitimate means

[CabriniGreen]

Sorry, I dont know why I got 2 double post....

[Villain]

The mafia began as a bastardized replica of the old catholic military orders like the Knights Hospitaller. Just like the KH, it has prerequisites, an oath, and general rules for its members to follow. And just like the KH and similar orders, it builds up a cultural identity over time, based on its simplistic principles. Early on, both organizations relied heavily on the zeal of their members before transforming into prospering closed-off societies for the selected few. For example:

- to be a member of a holy order, you needed to be a Catholic Christian
- to be a member of the mafia, you need to be of Italian heritage

- holy order members swore an oath of poverty, chastity, and obedience and renounced the world
- mafia members swear an oath of loyalty that they'll burn in hell if they betray their crime family

- holy order members had basic rules to guide them in their duties for the order
- mafia members have basic rules to guide them in their responsibilities for the borgata

- the holy orders had a goal - to protect their catholic brothers visiting sites in the Holy Land while also carrying out military operations
- the mafia has a goal - to protect and advance the well-being of its members by any legitimate and illegitimate means

Thanks for this.

[Wiseguy]

If we're talking rackets, as James B. Jacobs said in reference to the LCN, "No other criminal organization [in the United States] has controlled labor unions, organized employer cartels, operated as a rationalizing force in major industries, and functioned as a bridge between the upperworld and the underworld." It is this capacity that distinguishes the LCN from all other criminal organizations in the U.S.

Ever heard about the gambling combine (an underworld commission) in Chicago formed in 1903? It also included Irish, German and African-American bosses who operated since the late 19th century. Not one Mafioso and btw what was the Mafia doing at the time or during the early 1900s? Ever heard about the Grey Wolves? They were the real bridge between the upperworld and underworld in the states, while the US Mafia copied or did the same stuff much later. Maybe later they did it better but they were second place.

Am I really supposed to take the above seriously as comparison or competition to LCN at its peak or is this just tongue in cheek? Let's be adults here.

[PolackTony]

This was like, being hammered home to the "troops" all the time..... it was actually oppressive if you were growing g up during g this time..... I closed my ears and eyes, ... lol

“That’s on the BOS, Folks”.

[Villain]

If we're talking rackets, as James B. Jacobs said in reference to the LCN, "No other criminal organization [in the United States] has controlled labor unions, organized employer cartels, operated as a rationalizing force in major industries, and functioned as a bridge between the upperworld and the underworld." It is this capacity that distinguishes the LCN from all other criminal organizations in the U.S.

Ever heard about the gambling combine (an underworld commission) in Chicago formed in 1903? It also included Irish, German and African-American bosses who operated since the late 19th century. Not one Mafioso and btw what was the Mafia doing at the time or during the early 1900s? Ever heard about the Grey Wolves? They were the real bridge between the upperworld and underworld in the states, while the US Mafia copied or did the same stuff much later. Maybe later they did it better but they were second place.

Am I really supposed to take the above seriously as comparison or competition to LCN at its peak or is this just tongue in cheek? Let's be adults here.

You know I respect you WG and i expected an adult response from you with facts and examples. Ill leave it like this since you're older than me and I have respect for old ppl. Read Eboli's and some of my latest post on this subject. Believe it or not, your favorite team is just a copy of other previous or older organizations. I know it hurts but reality can be quite painful and you have to be a real man to accept it. Cheers

[Antiliar]

Here's my two cents. Yes, the Mafia/LCN is a criminal organization. We all agree on that. But it's more than just a criminal organization, and those other features contribute to its longevity. It's a fraternity, a brotherhood. It's a quasi-military organization. It's a business. It's an extended family.

It's also true that not every member is a criminal, at least not in a direct sense. They could be called criminal enablers. Doctors who may never have committed crimes themselves, but treat other members who were wounded while committing crimes. Priests who act as middlemen or hold onto items with no questions asked. Wealthy businessmen who help other members out when needed. Politicians who write lax laws. Of course from another point of view they are part of the larger conspiracy.

If you act like a middleman, and lets say the boss tells you to go and visit a certain member and tell him to execute the "contract"... than you as a middleman or messenger are part of the conspiracy to commit murder or any other crime. As a human being you have the right to chose between good and wrong. Thats obviously not the case in the Mafia. In the legit world you get fired for not listening to your boss, while in the Mafia you get killed for it.

As for being one of the oldest criminal organizations and thats why its more than just a street gang, I agree on that one.

A boss is going to preserve his assets, unless he's a real stupid boss. In that case, he won't remain a boss for long. So a boss is not going to tell made members who are politicians, attorneys, or medical doctors, to go out and murder people. They not going to commit robberies and they're not going to put out loans on the street. We've seen this in Chicago where the mob attorneys were protected and made guys were ordered to stay away from them. We can also give many examples of members who were shelved or even retired, despite the Cosa Nostra mantra of "you enter in alive and go out dead."

[Villain]

Here's my two cents. Yes, the Mafia/LCN is a criminal organization. We all agree on that. But it's more than just a criminal organization, and those other features contribute to its longevity. It's a fraternity, a brotherhood. It's a quasi-military organization. It's a business. It's an extended family.

It's also true that not every member is a criminal, at least not in a direct sense. They could be called criminal enablers. Doctors who may never have committed crimes themselves, but treat other members who were wounded while committing crimes. Priests who act as middlemen or hold onto items with no questions asked. Wealthy businessmen who help other members out when needed. Politicians who write lax laws. Of course from another point of view they are part of the larger conspiracy.

If you act like a middleman, and lets say the boss tells you to go and visit a certain member and tell him to execute the "contract"... than you as a middleman or messenger are part of the conspiracy to commit murder or any other crime. As a human being you have the right to chose between good and wrong. Thats obviously not the case in the Mafia. In the legit world you get fired for not listening to your boss, while in the Mafia you get killed for it.

As for being one of the oldest criminal organizations and thats why its more than just a street gang, I agree on that one.

A boss is going to preserve his assets, unless he's a real stupid boss. In that case, he won't remain a boss for long. So a boss is not going to tell made members who are politicians, attorneys, or medical doctors, to go out and murder people. They not going to commit robberies and they're not going to put out loans on the street. We've seen this in Chicago where the mob attorneys were protected and made guys were ordered to stay away from them. We can also give many examples of members who were shelved or even retired, despite the Cosa Nostra mantra of "you enter in alive and go out dead."

I agree. My previous point was if a doctor or priest acted as a messenger between a boss and a capo or a soldier regarding a contract. We also have examples in Chicago where attorneys were sent by bosses regarding various issues. Brodkin brought Fiorito to Giancana and later told him that the boss ordered for Fiorito to kill one of his associates or something like that....

[Nick Prango]

The Mafia has had members who were doctors, buisnessmen of all kinds, politicians and even priests etc.

No doubt about that but many of those same priests were used to carry mob money from one place to another, and many Mafia doctors did illegal stuff like not reporting to the police when a wounded guy is brought to him or execute dozens of illegal abortions for other members. And need to say anything about the Mafia politicians?

Even in 2021 Italian crime families in the United States have a very solid hierarchical structure, with people in place to step in when someone gets taken out or goes to prison. Other criminal organizations don't have that kind of hierarchical structure. That is why LCN is so resilient.

Look what happened to the most powerful Serbian criminal organization the Zemun clan back in 2003. Dušan Spasojević Šiptar and Mile Luković Kum were killed by the Serbian police, Milorad Ulemek Legija and most of the other members were sentenced to life in prison and the clan was completely dismantled. Even their villa in Šilerova street was demolished. Who stepped in. No one. They didn't have LCN type of solid hierarchical structure. Serbian government totally destroyed that organization. Operation Saber was an action that was successfully carried out by the serbian police and gendarmerie.

Compare the Zemun clan to the Gambino crime family. US government tried everything to destroy them. But they couldn't. The Gambino crime family is still a powerful active criminal organization.

[HairyKnuckles]

I agree with Chris. The Mafia is a subculture, whose members engages in crime. But never have the Mafia been an organization whose only criteria was to commit crime in order to join. The Mafia has had members who were doctors, buisnessmen of all kinds, politicians and even priests etc. Compare that to an ordinary street gang. And it´s not only because the Mafia saw criminal potential in these men but recognized the way these men carried themselves in certain situations. Strong, proud. I would imagine that non criminal members were more common back in the day but there are examples even today. Antonino Bonventre (for example) is said to have never commited a crime in his life, but yet he´s a made member.

It´s hard to grasp, but having members from all walks of life (even non criminals), certainly benefitted the Mafia and contributed to its longevity.

Again, what Mafia are you talking about? The Mafia a century ago or the Mafia today?

I would imagine that non criminal members were more common back in the day but there are examples even today. Antonino Bonventre (for example) is said to have never commited a crime in his life, but yet he´s a made member.

[Pogo The Clown]

Antonino Bonventre has certainly committed a crime somewhere to have been inducted into the modern day Bonanno family. Maybe by the standards of a hardcore life long gangster like Vinny Asaro he hasn't but by any other standards he has.


I'm reminded of when Ralph Natale testified that he didn't consider Angelo Lutz to be a criminal. Of course Lutz was since he took part in the bookmaking operations, occasionally collected the street tax and knowingly used mob money to finance legit businesses. But to a guy like Natale who did a lot of prison time and was involved in multiple murders, drugs dealing and others big crimes a hanger on and borderline hobbyist like Lutz didn't qualify as a real criminal.


Pogo

[Wiseguy]

You know I respect you WG and i expected an adult response from you with facts and examples. Ill leave it like this since you're older than me and I have respect for old ppl. Read Eboli's and some of my latest post on this subject. Believe it or not, your favorite team is just a copy of other previous or older organizations. I know it hurts but reality can be quite painful and you have to be a real man to accept it. Cheers

First, you can't accuse me of the team rooting thing. I'm the guy who's calling others out on that all the time. If I was of the same mentality, I'd probably be arguing that LCN is still relevant in multiple cities, etc. I'm the guy who says it's basically down to New York, with a few other areas where there's a small weak presence. So that accusation isn't going to fly.

Second, you can find this group or that group that may have done X, Y, or Z like LCN. Irish gangsters had political and police connections. Jewish gangsters were some of the early pioneers in labor racketeering. Some groups have been relatively diversified. Many have invested in legitimate businesses. But no other crime group in the U.S. has done all of those things in that quote I posted above; let alone to the level or scope, or for as long, as LCN. That can't be disputed.

Finally, since when is 43 old?

[Ivan]

Finally, since when is 43 old?

lol only kids with little life experience think under like at least 65 is "old"