In light of the recent Colombo bust, my observations.

[CabriniGreen]

Its not about how long the CN organization survived but instead its about being something "more"...i want to know what "more" really means...if "more" means the long survival of the organization, than ok....but if its the other way around, means that we're going to start glorifying these fellas and maybe even feel sorry for them and justify their actions?

Have you read the latest Colombo crime family indictment brother? It takes a lot of sophistication to do a scheme like this that separates La Cosa Nostra Families from other black, hispanic, asian, white/ biker etc gangs and eastern european/ asian ethnic criminal organizations in the United States which seem to infatuate people these days. I think people just have a really short memory here of what a scheme like this could yield if the bud is not nipped right away.

In 2018, Vincent Esposito, son of the late Vincent Gigante and other members of the Genovese Crime Family were nabbed for extorting UFCW Local 2D. When Vincent pled guilty, he admitted to making millions with members of the Genovese Crime Family by extorting payments, demanding kickbacks, committing fraud, and installing fear. He personally extorted over ten thousand dollars a year from the senior union official leading Local 2D. He had to forfeit over $3.8mn to the United States government which shows what kind of money you can make with prolonged control of a union local. For all of that, he got 2 years in prison! This is why union racketeering is so lucrative, you can pilfer a lot of money, gain a lot of influence and still only receive a short prison sentence. The Colombo Crime Family would have similarly made millions in ill-gotten gains if the Government didn’t catch on to this scheme quickly. Their big mistake was getting the administration involved in overseeing this scheme as opposed to keeping it more insulated like the Genovese Crime Family and letting the soldiers take the pinch. So yes, this is impressive. It’s beyond the capabilities of any of the more “fashionable” gangs and criminal organizations people like to rave about online. And when they plead out, they are not going to get drug-type sentences too. IMO this type of criminal activities is what makes American LCN "something more".

It is sophisticated because it blends the legitimate and illegitimate business world and is only something American LCN has been able to do. First, you can't benefit from union racketeering if you don't own a business that can pursue contracts/jobs that the union works with. So this involves being capable/smart enough to own businesses and organize employees etc. Once you have the construction company that the union can steer jobs too, then that's the most lucrative part of the scheme. You get more contracts and more work, therefore you are getting more money. Typical gangs and other eastern european/asian/hispanic OC groups have not demonstrated to be able to do that.

Then there is the direct health care fund pilfering - you need to own/control benefit companies with licenses etc. that can take place skim and get kick-backs. Then you need money laundering capabilities to cycle that money and make it look clean. There are a lot of moving parts. Plus there is sub schemes within union racketeering like the Coffee Boys scam the Colombo's were doing with Local 6A. As I have shown with the Genovese example, these schemes can yield millions and millions of dollars and he only got 2 years in prison. Compare that to a drug charge where you are looking at double-digit years minimum. If this scheme was going for as long as the Genovese, the Colombo's would have received millions in ill-gotten gains.

All unions aren't created equal... I think the Genovese have all the good ones

[Nick Prango]

Its not about how long the CN organization survived but instead its about being something "more"...i want to know what "more" really means...if "more" means the long survival of the organization, than ok....but if its the other way around, means that we're going to start glorifying these fellas and maybe even feel sorry for them and justify their actions?

Have you read the latest Colombo crime family indictment brother? It takes a lot of sophistication to do a scheme like this that separates La Cosa Nostra Families from other black, hispanic, asian, white/ biker etc gangs and eastern european/ asian ethnic criminal organizations in the United States which seem to infatuate people these days. I think people just have a really short memory here of what a scheme like this could yield if the bud is not nipped right away.

In 2018, Vincent Esposito, son of the late Vincent Gigante and other members of the Genovese Crime Family were nabbed for extorting UFCW Local 2D. When Vincent pled guilty, he admitted to making millions with members of the Genovese Crime Family by extorting payments, demanding kickbacks, committing fraud, and installing fear. He personally extorted over ten thousand dollars a year from the senior union official leading Local 2D. He had to forfeit over $3.8mn to the United States government which shows what kind of money you can make with prolonged control of a union local. For all of that, he got 2 years in prison! This is why union racketeering is so lucrative, you can pilfer a lot of money, gain a lot of influence and still only receive a short prison sentence. The Colombo Crime Family would have similarly made millions in ill-gotten gains if the Government didn’t catch on to this scheme quickly. Their big mistake was getting the administration involved in overseeing this scheme as opposed to keeping it more insulated like the Genovese Crime Family and letting the soldiers take the pinch. So yes, this is impressive. It’s beyond the capabilities of any of the more “fashionable” gangs and criminal organizations people like to rave about online. And when they plead out, they are not going to get drug-type sentences too. IMO this type of criminal activities is what makes American LCN "something more".

It is sophisticated because it blends the legitimate and illegitimate business world and is only something American LCN has been able to do. First, you can't benefit from union racketeering if you don't own a business that can pursue contracts/jobs that the union works with. So this involves being capable/smart enough to own businesses and organize employees etc. Once you have the construction company that the union can steer jobs too, then that's the most lucrative part of the scheme. You get more contracts and more work, therefore you are getting more money. Typical gangs and other eastern european/asian/hispanic OC groups have not demonstrated to be able to do that.

Then there is the direct health care fund pilfering - you need to own/control benefit companies with licenses etc. that can take place skim and get kick-backs. Then you need money laundering capabilities to cycle that money and make it look clean. There are a lot of moving parts. Plus there is sub schemes within union racketeering like the Coffee Boys scam the Colombo's were doing with Local 6A. As I have shown with the Genovese example, these schemes can yield millions and millions of dollars and he only got 2 years in prison. Compare that to a drug charge where you are looking at double-digit years minimum. If this scheme was going for as long as the Genovese, the Colombo's would have received millions in ill-gotten gains.

All unions aren't created equal... I think the Genovese have all the good ones

The Genovese family has always been the most powerful. They just get a lot less headlines and have fewer rats.

[nizarsoccer]

Its not about how long the CN organization survived but instead its about being something "more"...i want to know what "more" really means...if "more" means the long survival of the organization, than ok....but if its the other way around, means that we're going to start glorifying these fellas and maybe even feel sorry for them and justify their actions?

Have you read the latest Colombo crime family indictment brother? It takes a lot of sophistication to do a scheme like this that separates La Cosa Nostra Families from other black, hispanic, asian, white/ biker etc gangs and eastern european/ asian ethnic criminal organizations in the United States which seem to infatuate people these days. I think people just have a really short memory here of what a scheme like this could yield if the bud is not nipped right away.

In 2018, Vincent Esposito, son of the late Vincent Gigante and other members of the Genovese Crime Family were nabbed for extorting UFCW Local 2D. When Vincent pled guilty, he admitted to making millions with members of the Genovese Crime Family by extorting payments, demanding kickbacks, committing fraud, and installing fear. He personally extorted over ten thousand dollars a year from the senior union official leading Local 2D. He had to forfeit over $3.8mn to the United States government which shows what kind of money you can make with prolonged control of a union local. For all of that, he got 2 years in prison! This is why union racketeering is so lucrative, you can pilfer a lot of money, gain a lot of influence and still only receive a short prison sentence. The Colombo Crime Family would have similarly made millions in ill-gotten gains if the Government didn’t catch on to this scheme quickly. Their big mistake was getting the administration involved in overseeing this scheme as opposed to keeping it more insulated like the Genovese Crime Family and letting the soldiers take the pinch. So yes, this is impressive. It’s beyond the capabilities of any of the more “fashionable” gangs and criminal organizations people like to rave about online. And when they plead out, they are not going to get drug-type sentences too. IMO this type of criminal activities is what makes American LCN "something more".

It is sophisticated because it blends the legitimate and illegitimate business world and is only something American LCN has been able to do. First, you can't benefit from union racketeering if you don't own a business that can pursue contracts/jobs that the union works with. So this involves being capable/smart enough to own businesses and organize employees etc. Once you have the construction company that the union can steer jobs too, then that's the most lucrative part of the scheme. You get more contracts and more work, therefore you are getting more money. Typical gangs and other eastern european/asian/hispanic OC groups have not demonstrated to be able to do that.

Then there is the direct health care fund pilfering - you need to own/control benefit companies with licenses etc. that can take place skim and get kick-backs. Then you need money laundering capabilities to cycle that money and make it look clean. There are a lot of moving parts. Plus there is sub schemes within union racketeering like the Coffee Boys scam the Colombo's were doing with Local 6A. As I have shown with the Genovese example, these schemes can yield millions and millions of dollars and he only got 2 years in prison. Compare that to a drug charge where you are looking at double-digit years minimum. If this scheme was going for as long as the Genovese, the Colombo's would have received millions in ill-gotten gains.

This seems familiar

[Nick Prango]

Its not about how long the CN organization survived but instead its about being something "more"...i want to know what "more" really means...if "more" means the long survival of the organization, than ok....but if its the other way around, means that we're going to start glorifying these fellas and maybe even feel sorry for them and justify their actions?

Our people from the Balkans Serbs, Macedonians, Albanians, Montenegrins, Turks, Romanians, Bulgarians, Croats, Bosniaks also view the United States as a large target to plunder. They are looking for opportunities to make legal and illegal profits. Even in 2021 you can't compare these immigrant crime groups to LCN. Albanians from my town who have family members members living in New York and New Jersey told me that Albanian crews mostly work for the Italian crime families in Northeastern United states. Some of them are even bragging that their relatives are with the Gambinos or Genoveses. They told me that Albanians don't really have any big syndicates in the US, just some small crews. From what Albanians told me Albanian crews in USA are not involved in traditional organized crime rackets. They are heavily involved in drugs and mostly work for the Italian crime families in Northeastern United states.

Italian crime families are still the dominant group in Northeastern USA and Chicago and Detroit to a degree out but have lost their stranglehold on many parts . The New York 5 families had (and to a certain extent still have) sections of the city carved up as being parts of their “spheres of influence.” While this declined drastically in the last 30 years due to declining membership numbers and issues with federal prosecutions, they are a still potent force and their members can still evoke fear in both criminals and civilians alike. I am confident they do not control all the gambling like they did in the past. I still believe they have their ties in unions, construction and garbage industry.

I dont know who are your Albanian friends, my Macedonian brother, but the shiptars i know or knew (since some of them are deceased) didnt give a fuck if the Gambinos or Latin Kings held a "monopoly" around NY and they dont work for them. Especially some of my Serbian friends. Same thing goes in Rome and Palermo, and Spain and Germany.

You are right about everything you said about CN and i think you are wasting words for something that i already know, but you still didnt answer my previous question....whats "more"? They are "more" than a crime organization? If so what does that mean? Does it mean that they really care about the civilians around them and the Mafia is good for our society or is it something "more"? Lol thats the thing i want to know. Its a simple question which resulted from other "members" post.

As you can see most of my previous questions are ignored by some forum members out of obvious reasons, except for you and Pogo. So let me hear your answer....as I already said, if "more" means the long survival of CN, than ok....if it something else, pls explain in to me...im eager to learn.

Also for me its hard to believe that Italian OC is still dominant in the US, especially Detriot and Chicago. If you count the legitimate and political ties, than i believe that the Irish mob won the "mob war" way before Prohibition Lol

The older guy on the picture with tattoos on his chest and stomach is Joco Ninja

[Angelo Santino]

@ Chris... the latest from Pennisi.... this is why you cant exempt Cosa Nostra from the drug trade, also..... there is a lot of info on this, in the article about Sicily I posted....


https://sitdownnews.com/cosa-nostras-soldati-children/

I had to read this a couple of times and I'm still confused. Have I said something that seemed like I'm trying to argue that Mafia isn't involved in the drug trade? You seem to keep making statements trying to prove things that I have not said or stated. This leads me to believe that I'm very much failing at what I'm trying to articulate.

It seems to be the belief here is that the LCN is exclusively a criminal organization whose leadership is divided between high-level and mid-level crime bosses who micromanage the criminal activity of their "soldiers." That they are all joined together purely, 100% to pursue crime. Like the blacks or Latinos who recruit among racial lines, the Mafia is the wayo equivalent who recruit Italians into their ranks so they can "kick up" money to leadership and that's that. Is this the perception?

[Villain]

Have you read the latest Colombo crime family indictment brother? It takes a lot of sophistication to do a scheme like this

Really? You ever heard of Danco Suturkov? Lol

Common man I respect you and thanks for all of the info but I already know these stuff.

So you want to tell me that CN is considered "more than an OC organization" because of their alleged "sophisticated" rackets? Or is it something "more"? Like an alleged robinhood organization? Crime is a crime, theres nothing between, above or below. You didnt start that same debate but still again thanks for all of the additional info bud.

[Nick Prango]

Have you read the latest Colombo crime family indictment brother? It takes a lot of sophistication to do a scheme like this

Really? You ever heard of Danco Suturkov? Lol

Common man I respect you and thanks for all of the info but I already know these stuff.

So you want to tell me that CN is considered "more than an OC organization" because of their alleged "sophisticated" rackets? Or is it something "more"? Like an alleged robinhood organization? Crime is a crime, theres nothing between, above or below. You didnt start that same debate but still again thanks for all of the additional info bud.

I respect you too my brother. But it seems that we misunderstood each other. I never said that LCN is a robinhood organization. My point is that even in 2021 Italian crime families are something "more" compared to these other ethnic criminal organisations in USA. Personally i think that Italian Mafia has and always will be more organized than other ethnic eastern european, asian, hispanic etc criminal organisations and black, hispanic, asian, white, biker etc gangs in the United States . Comparing these other ethnic crime groups to LCN crime families is like comparing apples and oranges.

[TommyNoto]

strange times

legalizing gambling in NJ has been a jackpot for bookies ( didn’t expect that ) and a bookie in NJ will also likely never get jail time ever again. Does anyone know the last NJ gambling bust ?

legalizing weed in NJ has been a jackpot for crews and now no one will ever see the inside of a jail cell for weed

Oddly the pie is getting bigger for criminals in NJ with no threat of jail time now

The stuff they are pinching wise guys for are pretty pathetic IMO

head count will certainly shrink ( oddly like any USA company today lol ) but I’m not certain the pie shrinks ( as is )

I can’t think of a better time in history to be a wise guy with a package and selling weed in the side. Without bail / lawyer $, it must be Google type profit margins lol . Why even mess around with loan sharking today

I have to wonder how much legalized bookmaking is really going to benefit them. I know a lot of people were speculating that it would, but I'd like to know if that has really been the case. I know that the mob lets you bet on credit, but I don't see how a regular Joe who likes to bet football but doesn't have any cash on hand is going to get connected with a mobbed-up bookie.

I thought the same but credit , no tax and off grid ( like crypto ) seem to have staying power. Legal gambling is mostly retail but the degenerates will eventually be customers of the mob.

Same shit going on with weed and tax , both black and legal market likely grows.

In NJ you can carry these rackets out in the open now with no reprcussions , fascinating times and I can’t wait for the day your local wise guy is quoting Solana prices lol

[NJShore4Life]

It’s much cheaper to buy weed on the black market than it is legally with all the added taxes.

-Dante

[CabriniGreen]

@ Chris... the latest from Pennisi.... this is why you cant exempt Cosa Nostra from the drug trade, also..... there is a lot of info on this, in the article about Sicily I posted....


https://sitdownnews.com/cosa-nostras-soldati-children/

I had to read this a couple of times and I'm still confused. Have I said something that seemed like I'm trying to argue that Mafia isn't involved in the drug trade? You seem to keep making statements trying to prove things that I have not said or stated. This leads me to believe that I'm very much failing at what I'm trying to articulate.

It seems to be the belief here is that the LCN is exclusively a criminal organization whose leadership is divided between high-level and mid-level crime bosses who micromanage the criminal activity of their "soldiers." That they are all joined together purely, 100% to pursue crime. Like the blacks or Latinos who recruit among racial lines, the Mafia is the wayo equivalent who recruit Italians into their ranks so they can "kick up" money to leadership and that's that. Is this the perception?

For fucks sake man.... their purpose is to pursue POWER, at the EXPENSE of the legitimate ruling body. This by very definition is criminal. The methodology that they use to pursue said power is usually CRIME!!

You seriously killing me with this kumbaya shit, lol..

Everyone acknowledges them as being the preeminent criminals, THE PREEMINENT CRIMINALS.
What else do you think they are? The legitimate rulers of Italy? You think them the ACTUAL qualified politicians of NY? Are you saying they are genetically predisposed to crime?


You almost frame it like the majority of them are law abiding citizens.....

[Villain]

Comparing these other ethnic crime groups to LCN crime families is like comparing apples and oranges.

At the beginning (late 19th century, 1900s and 1910s) the US Mafia was mainly involved in extortion, counterfeiting, murder and legitimate enterprises, meaning they werent sophisticated at all.

Now, during that period the Irish mob already controlled all corruption, gambling and prostitution. The African-American mob owned the policy/numbers racket which also brought millions. The Chinese had their opium dens. These groups were sophisticated.

So during the following decades the US Italian Mafia either kidnapped/took over those same rackets by force, or simply inherited them from their previous mentors/bosses who belonged to a different ethnicity.

Another example is the gasoline tax scam which in fact was started by the Russian mob. So i cannot say that the US CN was/is so innovative and sophisticated. They simply stole or copied already placed rackets by other ethnic groups.

[Villain]

their purpose is to pursue POWER, at the EXPENSE of the legitimate ruling body. This by very definition is criminal.

^^^ this statement should end the "being more than a criminal organization" debate.

[Nick Prango]

Comparing these other ethnic crime groups to LCN crime families is like comparing apples and oranges.

At the beginning (late 19th century, 1900s and 1910s) the US Mafia was mainly involved in extortion, counterfeiting, murder and legitimate enterprises, meaning they werent sophisticated at all.

Now, during that period the Irish mob already controlled all corruption, gambling and prostitution. The African-American mob owned the policy/numbers racket which also brought millions. The Chinese had their opium dens. These groups were sophisticated.

So during the following decades the US Italian Mafia either kidnapped/took over those same rackets by force, or simply inherited them from their previous mentors/bosses who belonged to a different ethnicity.

Another example is the gasoline tax scam which in fact was started by the Russian mob. So i cannot say that the US CN was/is so innovative and sophisticated. They simply stole or copied already placed rackets by other ethnic groups.

I never said that LCN was/is so innovative and sophisticated. The difference between the Italians and Irish is that the Irish were quicker to become a part of the establishment by setting up footholds in civil services like the police and post offices in cities like New York. Tammany Hall in its heyday was carried there largely by the political will of Irish immigrants. It really speaks to the politically charged climate they were coming from when they immigrated to the US, and how eager they were to participate in the political system of America. There were also VASTLY more Irish than Italians (today something like 10% of white americans can trace their lineage back to Ireland), thus it was easier for Irish to collectivise and impose their political will.


Also the Jewish mob was hugely successful. Meyer Lansky, the most successful gangster from the 40s-60s going by finances, was in it. Arnold Rothstein was the leader of the Jewish Mob for a while, and he changed the entire structure of it. His changes were so successful, that Lucky Luciano and Meyer Lansky (who were both mentees of Rothstein) adopted them when they formed the Commission. Mostly, the Jewish Mob was massively powerful, especially when they worked with the Italian Mob.Gangsters like Lansky, Zwillman, Dalitz and co were never interested in building a criminal dynasty. Not one of Lansky’s kids went into crime and I believe they all went to university (perhaps not his eldest who was sick). They wanted to make money so that they could provide for their families and elevate themselves out of the ghettos. That’s not to romanticise, and certainly not to justify, their actions but just to give some background to the general Jewish motivation for going into a life of crime.


The main difference is that these Jewish and Irish gangsters never created "families".
This is very much juxtaposed to the Italians who saw the Mafia as a way of life. They were looking to building empires, vast criminal dynasties that would be taken over by their sons and their sons in turn. This happened time and time again, that the sons of a big mafiosi, followed their father into the world. Magadinno, Bonanno, Gambino, Gotti etc. all brought their sons along to the party. Many Jewish families who immigrated is the early 20th century placed an emphasis on education and becoming professionals while Italian immigrant families placed emphasis on preservation of the familial unit. As a result the Jewish neighborhoods were mostly gone while many Italian neighborhoods remained due to children staying and helping their parents in adulthood due to the centrality of the familial unit in Italian culture (in part due to the fractional and violent region they emigrated from). It seems that the same idea can be applied to crime.

[Angelo Santino]

@ Chris... the latest from Pennisi.... this is why you cant exempt Cosa Nostra from the drug trade, also..... there is a lot of info on this, in the article about Sicily I posted....


https://sitdownnews.com/cosa-nostras-soldati-children/

I had to read this a couple of times and I'm still confused. Have I said something that seemed like I'm trying to argue that Mafia isn't involved in the drug trade? You seem to keep making statements trying to prove things that I have not said or stated. This leads me to believe that I'm very much failing at what I'm trying to articulate.

It seems to be the belief here is that the LCN is exclusively a criminal organization whose leadership is divided between high-level and mid-level crime bosses who micromanage the criminal activity of their "soldiers." That they are all joined together purely, 100% to pursue crime. Like the blacks or Latinos who recruit among racial lines, the Mafia is the wayo equivalent who recruit Italians into their ranks so they can "kick up" money to leadership and that's that. Is this the perception?

For fucks sake man.... their purpose is to pursue POWER, at the EXPENSE of the legitimate ruling body. This by very definition is criminal. The methodology that they use to pursue said power is usually CRIME!!

You seriously killing me with this kumbaya shit, lol..

Everyone acknowledges them as being the preeminent criminals, THE PREEMINENT CRIMINALS.
What else do you think they are? The legitimate rulers of Italy? You think them the ACTUAL qualified politicians of NY? Are you saying they are genetically predisposed to crime?


You almost frame it like the majority of them are law abiding citizens.....

Again, you are trying to argue with me an issue that no one is on the other side of. I never made any attempt to separate the Mafia from criminality, it is others here who have skewed this thread into a debate on what constitutes criminality.

Members of the mafia engage in crime. Period. This includes your precious drug trafficking that you are so keenly focused on, it also includes murder, extortion and most other criminal endeavors. Admitted. So can you stop trying to prove to me something I never said they do not do?

I'm stating that mafia is more than a criminal organization, it is a secret society. They have their own laws and regulations which run in opposition to what constitutes the law (ie criminal). But rather than pursue crime for the sake of being a criminal, committing crimes is another tool in their bag for which they can pursue their own economic interests. Murder is murder, but even criminal statutes recognize the degree of difference between a Ted Bundy and a Scott Peterson.

The mafia is a brotherhood, a criminal Freemasonry of sorts. The hierarchy that has become part of pop culture doesn't direct crime, it directs the behavior of its members who do engage in crime. John Pennisi talks about these ranks and when dealing with them, they mostly center around the conduct of its members, not how they are engaged in crime.

This Secret Society is divided into Families/Borgate whatever and they share mutual recognition of each other, they have a protocol for identifying each other, there is a distinction between who is a member and who isn't, they have their own subculture, they intermarry and they (remember, it's their organization, not ours) view it as a tradition, Joe Bonanno described even described this. Additionally, there are examples of "kick ups" but there are plenty of examples of that not being required, which if this were purely a criminal business would be quite odd.

I'm not nor ever did dismiss the criminality aspect, I'm saying there is more to what makes Mafia the Mafia than hierarchies and rackets.

[Villain]

The Mafia is a CRIMINAL secret society and a TERRORIST type of brotherhood. Crime is not "just another tool in their bag" but instead its the ONLY tool. They have ranks, protocols and rules so the high level members can isolate themselves from the illegal activities and also to protect their illegal income, and also to have total control over the lower level members under the threat of death. All members engage in crime, not just some and their legit enterprises serve for laundering illegal income. Theres not much difference between a "Ted Bundy" and a "Mad Sam" type of murder.

We previously said that someone is mixing stuff with the masonic organizations which also have their ranks and rules but they are older than the Mafia and crime isnt their first choice.