In light of the recent Colombo bust, my observations.

[Angelo Santino]

Zen sounds like an internal war relayed from an outsider perspective. The 1993 Philadelphia war was told from the same perspective and in those same brush strokes.

[CabriniGreen]

I gotta point out, I just saw the MBA pod about the Pizza connection, Tom ask the SAME SHIT I ask all the time. Same questions come up, I might have to make a thread, heads up, lol..



Also, no one is saying the mafia is now EXCLUSIVELY a drug cartel. But you gotta be biased not to see that some aspects of the mafia, operate drug cartel type organizations. They arnt all created equal. Some do grapes and wine, some waste disposal, some gambling, some Public Works contracts. ALL are trying to gain power at the expense of entrenched power. The folly to me is looking at one activity as being " Better". I dont think the mafia thinks that, even if the law make the distinction. Like take Gene Gotti. I dont even consider him really a drug dealer, more a mobster who invested in narcotics. I dont get why you guys dont get that...



Also, your losing me a little on the mafias purpose.


Do you consider the mafia to be like the Taliban? Are they the " real" legitimate rulers of the island? And what legitimizes them, violence alone?

(This would make sense if the Island was still ruled by foreigners.)


If so, why did the bid to make Sicily an independent State fail? Are the people truly behind them, or just fear them?

Are the mafia like Castro in Cuba, freedom fighters, ready to take over by revolution? Fuck no.... wheres the money in that? Wheres the percentage? I think Riina and those guys probably thought they wernt criminals too. Like, I dont care if they are whatever, elected officials, all the " legit" people in league with them were criminals too. The people who let Brusca out, the ones who just acquitted DellI'Utri? Is that his name? Criminals.

Ok, the mafia doesnt revolve around any SINGLE criminal, or, indeed, any legitimate operation.



BUT.......If the very purpose of the organization is to be in perpetual opposition to the elected ruling government, is that not criminal?0


It's why I mentioned the Gabelloti. THATS where the mafia came from. From Armed Gunmen. YES, the mafia has its internal politics, it doesn't make em actual politicians. No, they positioned themselves in between the wealthy landowners, and the peasants who worked the land, playing both off against each other, dependent on which side best met their interest. Like Dicke said, an instrument for local government. Gaining power at the expense of entrenched power. By any means. Like Stax posted some stuff about Denaros dad. Substitute land for a banker, and it's the same thing. That's how they got power, the gun. Business took em to the next level, eye to eye with politicians and the " Elites". I'm talking people like the Grecos with the lemons, or the sulphur mines. Or Leggio and his meat hauling.






It's an ideology thing. Gangs are YOUNG. The mafia is OLD. Didnt start with broken youths from broken homes, from broken neighborhoods. It was the Gabelloti. In Sicily, it's about power more than money. They never forgot how Government, in EVERY iteration treated them. It's not to be trusted, at all cost. And maybe, for them, experience taught them that's a legitimate position.


But they are still criminals, lol..... I like this thread a lot...

[CabriniGreen]

Zen sounds like an internal war relayed from an outsider perspective. The 1993 Philadelphia war was told from the same perspective and in those same brush strokes.

My man, it plainly says they are at war.

My point is it's a recognized mafia family, that looks to be little more than a gang that deals drugs.

[Villain]

In and of itself there is no law making it illegal to be a member of the Mafia (I think in Italy there is) but if a member commits a crime on behalf of the organization they get a stiffer sentwnce than if a Joe Blow commits the exact same crime on his own.


If a person were to openly say no I won't kill for you, no I won't break the law and no I won't agree to cover up criminal activity for you by not cooperating with LE. Can such a person still become a member? Would that person even be allowed to hang around as an Associate?


If not than that is by definition a criminal organization.


Pogo

I also believe that in Italy you can get jailed for simply being a member of the Mafia. I also always thought that for one to become a member, he needs to bring a certain amount of both illegal and legal income, and possibly to commit a murder or any other illegal activity. For example if there was a medical doctor in the Mafia, that same individual was expected to do many illegal abortions or to take out bullets from wounded victims and no police report, and even commit corruption regarding a certain politician. As you already said, by definition it is a criminal organization, meaning for one to enter the brotherhood, he needs to show disregard towards the state laws and commit illegal activities, which can obviously be spotted even in the so-called legitimate world.

[Shellackhead]

I think in Italy they give you 10 years for being in the mafia.

[CabriniGreen]

Zen sounds like an internal war relayed from an outsider perspective. The 1993 Philadelphia war was told from the same perspective and in those same brush strokes.

But Zen is an actual family......

Screenshot_20211003-083348_Adobe Acrobat.jpg

[Pogo The Clown]

In and of itself there is no law making it illegal to be a member of the Mafia (I think in Italy there is) but if a member commits a crime on behalf of the organization they get a stiffer sentwnce than if a Joe Blow commits the exact same crime on his own.


If a person were to openly say no I won't kill for you, no I won't break the law and no I won't agree to cover up criminal activity for you by not cooperating with LE. Can such a person still become a member? Would that person even be allowed to hang around as an Associate?


If not than that is by definition a criminal organization.

I also believe that in Italy you can get jailed for simply being a member of the Mafia. I also always thought that for one to become a member, he needs to bring a certain amount of both illegal and legal income, and possibly to commit a murder or any other illegal activity. For example if there was a medical doctor in the Mafia, that same individual was expected to do many illegal abortions or to take out bullets from wounded victims and no police report, and even commit corruption regarding a certain politician. As you already said, by definition it is a criminal organization, meaning for one to enter the brotherhood, he needs to show disregard towards the state laws and commit illegal activities, which can obviously be spotted even in the so-called legitimate world.

What Christie and B are describing better applies to motorcycle clubs. A legal organization where some of its members engage in crime. MC's are legally registered corporations, they legally own and register headquarters buildings, they pay taxes, they have registered trade marks, etc. Some chapters are made up of legitimate guys who like to ride motorcycles. Some chapters are more like gangs in that they are wholly criminal. Some are a mixture of both.


Pogo

[Angelo Santino]

I'll respond in more detail tomorrow. But for now, provide me the rules of the mafia, what members are told once they are inducted.

[Pogo The Clown]

Also LCN is presided over by a ruling body that meets to decide on murders and the dividing up of criminal rackets. That is by definition a criminal operation.


Pogo

[Chaps]

I'll respond in more detail tomorrow. But for now, provide me the rules of the mafia, what members are told once they are inducted.

It always seems to depend on who's telling the tale. In general (mainly NY) here's the story:

1) No dealing in narcotics, counterfeit money, or stolen stocks and bonds.
2) To be respectful of other members and their families.
3) Don't fool around with other members wives or daughters.
4) If any disputes arise that you and other members cannot resolve, you must go to your captain.
5) You do not put your hands on other Family members.
6) When your captain calls, you must respond immediately, no matter the time of day.
7) The "Family" comes before your own blood family.
8) Above all else, you do not discuss anything about the family with outsiders upon pain of death.

The last rule is told in several different versions but they all end the same. Al D'Arco said that "you do not discuss anything about this family with members of other families or outsiders. If you do not abide by these rules you will be killed."

Enough CC?

[Villain]

If you do not abide by these rules you will be killed."

Thats right. The threat "burning like the saint in his hands if he betrays his brothers" means death, which is obvious that these guys operate their organization through fear and intimidation, and the greediest and most ruthless members usually reach the top spots. Murder is a crime. Also many bosses rejected the rule like helping the families of imprisoned and deceased members, which means that most of the Mafias rules are simple illusions and manipulations. In fact, there are cases in which the organization sometimes extorted the families of the deceased members.

[Angelo Santino]

I'll respond in more detail tomorrow. But for now, provide me the rules of the mafia, what members are told once they are inducted.

It always seems to depend on who's telling the tale. In general (mainly NY) here's the story:

1) No dealing in narcotics, counterfeit money, or stolen stocks and bonds.
2) To be respectful of other members and their families.
3) Don't fool around with other members wives or daughters.
4) If any disputes arise that you and other members cannot resolve, you must go to your captain.
5) You do not put your hands on other Family members.
6) When your captain calls, you must respond immediately, no matter the time of day.
7) The "Family" comes before your own blood family.
8) Above all else, you do not discuss anything about the family with outsiders upon pain of death.

The last rule is told in several different versions but they all end the same. Al D'Arco said that "you do not discuss anything about this family with members of other families or outsiders. If you do not abide by these rules you will be killed."

Enough CC?

Yes, thank you.

With the exception of Rule 1 which is a rule against certain crimes, 2-8 seem more like rules on how members should conduct themselves personally and with others in the organization. Compare these rules to Outlaw MC's (https://outlawsmc15usa.weebly.com/bylaws.html) and notice the difference, Outlaw MC rules are far more intricate and deal with organizational protocol right down to what kind of bikes a patched member can ride.

--
Pogo-
The Commission's purpose was to arbitrate disputes. When "business" became more of a factor due to Castellano, Gigante even complained about it, citing the purpose was to deal with members, not business. I'm not for a second going to say that it's 100% this or that, I'm saying the Mafia is MORE than just a criminal organization. The ranks are a bureaucracy that legislates the conduct of its members.

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Cabrini-
Ok, Zen is it's own family. The article you initially sent read to me like it was a civil war happening in that area between two factions. There is information that they are involved in drugs and there's no one on the other side of that argument. However, have we ever had an informant? Do we know everything about the Zen Family or just what's been reported? When Mafia makes the news what is mainly covered, their daily lives or their crimes? We can read articles and get an idea of things but it does not give us the full story.

Again, my entire point goes back to the ranks and what their function is, I never intended this to skew into a debate on what constitutes a criminal. The mafia engages in crime, no one is on the other side of this issue.

[Villain]

Can we define "the Mafia is MORE than just a criminal organization"? I know that the whole thing started as some type of "partisan" organization but lets face it, from the late 19th century onward they were bloodthirsty killers and money was/is their only "saint".... they killed and still kill women and children and make money out of everything that makes every normal individual vomit just from thinking about it...they copied their formation from old army structures just so the high level members can isolate themselves from the dirty stuff.

The masons also have their own ranks and rules but they dont massacre each other like in the Mafia and they dont isolate themselves from any type of LE. For example I know many local and foreign masons who talk openly about their "secrets" and ranks and they are still alive and receive legitimate income to this day and they are going to remain like that for the rest of their lives. Maybe we are talking about that type of organization? Maybe thats why some more "reasonable Mafiosi" began entering these masonic lodges? Ill also mention Frank Costello as one of the oldest examples who allegedly wanted to get away from the so-called "street life"...

[Pogo The Clown]

Pogo-
The Commission's purpose was to arbitrate disputes. When "business" became more of a factor due to Castellano, Gigante even complained about it, citing the purpose was to deal with members, not business. I'm not for a second going to say that it's 100% this or that, I'm saying the Mafia is MORE than just a criminal organization. The ranks are a bureaucracy that legislates the conduct of its members.

Yes but disputes that arose from their criminal operations. They decided where members could conduct their illegal operations (South Florida, Nevada and Arizona were open territory, later on LV belonged to Chicago while AC belonged to NY), they coordinated their national illegal control of labor unions. Later on they met up to divide the construction rackets. They approved murders, etc. It was a pure criminal body. One could not sit on it without being a criminal and a killer.


We discussed earlier about LCN operating as a business. We can say the Commission was operated on a business model. They had a chairman/head, they held votes, they had protocols for getting together, they set policy for the rest of the organization. I forgot did Bonsnno say they also had a treasurer at one time? To use a media ohrase they really were the board of directors for organized crime.

The masons also have their own ranks and rules but they dont massacre each other like in the Mafia. For example I know many local and foreign masons who talk openly about their "secrets" and ranks and they are still alive and rich to this day and they are going to remain like that for the rest of their lives. Maybe we are talking about that type of organization? Maybe thats why some more "reasonable Mafiosi" began entering these masonic lodges? Ill use Frank Costello as one of the oldest examples who wanted to get away from the so-called "street influence"...

That is another group that entered my mind. There similar such fraternal and political groups that have similar ranks and go back as long or almost as long as LCN but they don't get classified as criminal groups.


Pogo

[Villain]

That is another group that entered my mind. There similar such fraternal and political groups that have similar ranks and go back as long or almost as long as LCN but they don't get classified as criminal groups.


Pogo

Nicely said. Many of them are intellectuals and legitimate individuals who are "protected" by their brotherhood in the so-called legitimate world. They obviously fight to an extent to keep their own influence within that same world but they are far away of what Cosa Nostra really is. Controlling the upper world is one thing, controlling the underworld is another.