Early Torretta->NYC connections?

[B.]

No idea.

LoDuca seems like the typical Sicilian member from that era and other Luccheses zips were involved in drug trafficking.

Corallo was vehemently against drugs on the tapes, but so were Castellano and Gigante. Castellano still brought Sicilian drug traffickers into his family but the relationships weren't based on that alone. With the Luccheses, we don't know what the relationships were based on... their Sicilian members seem to have stronger relationships with Gambino figures and come from parts of Palermo that would otherwise put them with the Gambino family in the US.

[PolackTony]

No idea.

LoDuca seems like the typical Sicilian member from that era and other Luccheses zips were involved in drug trafficking.

Corallo was vehemently against drugs on the tapes, but so were Castellano and Gigante. Castellano still brought Sicilian drug traffickers into his family but the relationships weren't based on that alone. With the Luccheses, we don't know what the relationships were based on... their Sicilian members seem to have stronger relationships with Gambino figures and come from parts of Palermo that would otherwise put them with the Gambino family in the US.

Thanks. I agree that the Lucchese zip links are an interesting question, given the apparent lack of continuity between the Lucchese family and the source areas in Sicily where these guys came from. Would be cool to see if any further insights pop up on the forum here about this.

[cobra]

Leaders like Riina were very authoritarian, but too much emphasis is placed on the idea that the mafia is constantly giving its members orders or commands. It's also a system of representation.

Rosario Gambino is a member of the Torretta family who was represented by the Gambino family. When a Philly member had a beef with him, Scarfo took it to John Gotti who said he was limited in what he could do because Gambino was with the Sicilian mafia, but you can see where the issue was still registered with the Gambino family and a meeting was held. We can presume Gotti sent word via Gambino's relatives to tone down his behavior in NJ, but Gotti didn't take total responsibility for him either.

A lot of it is going to depend on who the member is, what his relationship is to family leaders, and what the given issue is, but the Gambino issue gives you an idea.

-in one video michael franzese said rosario gambino is a member of philly
-if i find i will post link here

[B.]

Leonetti said Gambino was introduced to Scarfo as an "amico nostra" by Angelo Bruno in the 1970s but Scarfo didn't know his family association. Scarfo was surprised to find out from Gotti years later that Gambino was a Sicilian mafia member.

[bronx]

hard to believe a guy like bruno didn't tell nicky ..

[CabriniGreen]

Given Corallo's stance on drug trafficking (discussed on Jaguar tapes), can't imagine he would recruit Sicilian members through those relationships alone.

Ok,......Now, heres where its gonna get juicy....

You had Corralo, Castellano and Gigante ALL AGAINST drugs. Yet you have a quorum, the Gambino, Luchesse, and Bonnano families, all with active Sicilian factions, ALL engaged in narcotics.

My theory is they understood that they couldnt stop the sicilians, in fact, were kinda obligated to accommodate them. So they took the next best step they could, and banned THEIR guys from engaging in it. That's the only way the whole thing makes any sense to me.


I dont think Corralo recruited them...... AT ALL. I think this is something they got correct in the Sixth Family book. The sicilians were COMING OVER, they wernt exactly invited or recruited. (Well, the Gambinos are different )They were running from Sicily because it was too hot. They were coming over as early as 64, possibly earlier....

Now, felice posted something in the " Some info on the Gambinos"..... that the sicilians made some sort of compromise with Castellano, and were allowed to increase THEIR drug business. Not that the Americans had some great urge to engage in narcotics, more like, the Sicilians needed access to New York to make the big money. So Castellano accommodated them, most likely because saying no would probably have been politically.........unpredictable. Not saying it would have been a confrontation, but it might have damaged his standing with the Sicilian families.

It's why I previously referenced your post on Castellanos meeting with the Sicilian boss Geraci, on how Castellano told him that guys were coming over and doing whatever, and that they had to be with a family, like represented properly. And I think you posted the Luchesses made 10 right away....... it does all tie in I think....

Not a whole lot of evidence that drug trafficking by itself played a role in Sicilians' formal affiliation with US families, though so little is known about how/why the Luccheses recruited them I wouldn't rule anything out.

Ok.... heres part of the disconnect I think. I dont think the Sicilians got made with ANY family because of THAT families interest in narcotics.

I hope you guys follow me here. The Americans DIDNT CARE about narcotics. They already had everything that was any good. Whereas, the Sicilians were only over here TO MOVE narcotics. And this was only because of the liquidity crises they had in Sicily. If you disagree, the SAME situation occured decades later, when Nicchi meets with Cali to get into drugs, because of a liquidity crises in Sicily. And I dont think Cali gave a fuck about drug trafficking at that point in his career. But he seemed to be in the same situation as Castellano, he couldnt refuse a " friend", for his own political standing.

I think they got made as a political concession by the Americans. I think the Sicilians were granted basically "work visas" to operate in NY, that they paid for with a piece of the action. I dont think, excluding the Inzerillo- Gambino clan, I dont think they really would have cared WHAT family they got made into, as long as they were respected as friends, and could operate with the same respect and freedom afforded to American mafia members.... basically, narcotics made the world smaller, and they wanted have the same freedom of movement between Palermo and NY, as the Americans move borough to borough. And the thing is...if I've read guys like Chris Christie right, that how it originally was, before the sundering took hold between the organizations.

Also, I gotta add.. the Sicilians were doing a LOT of rule adaptations at this time, to accommodate evolution in the criminal landscape. They had a rule about initiating too many relatives in the same family. Then they go and recognize the Caruana- Cuntreras, a family of literal blood relations. And I suspect they ONLY did it because of their importance in narcotics, the same reason they recognized the 3 Naples families during the same time period. Take away Zazas smuggling, the mafia didnt need him.... same with the Caruanas....

Onofrio Milazzo might be the biggest mystery of them all. He was a fairly recent emigrant from Sicily and by the late 1960s represented NJ Lucchese associates in a sitdown with Funzi Tieri and Patty Macchiarole. He was treated like a made member by Tieri, Macchiarole, and John DiGiglio. His cousin was Jimmy Sinatra, but would be strange if Milazzo was allowed to transfer to the Luccheses just because his cousin was an unpopular associate. The roots of the NJ Lucchese crew are heavily from Trapani, like Milazzo, so could have been a factor.

What's important is there seems to be no continuity between a zip like Milazzo and the Palermitani zips who joined the Luccheses in the years after Milazzo returned to Sicily. You do see continuity of some kind or another with the zips in other families.

Question here B.

Do you think, with Milazzo being treated like a made man, that this was an outlier, an exception? Or would this have been the attitude of the average mafia soldier?
Was Milazzo especially respected? Or was this a general courtesy that any Sicilian mafia member could expect if he came to NY? Was he an exception? Or the norm?

This goes to the points I've made above, about what expectations the Sicilians might have had from the Americans as far as respect and membership and equivalence. No one gave Milazzo a 5 year rule before he could be considered a friend, I'm assuming...

[B.]

We don't know the details on Milazzo. He was identified by authorities as a Sicilian mafia figure but was able to sit down with a Genovese captain and soldier as the representative of two Lucchese associates. Tieri showed great respect for Milazzo and spoke in Italian for his benefit. In an earlier incident, the mere presence of Milazzo stopped John DiGiglio from beating up a Lucchese associate and DiGiglio showed great deference to Milazzo.

Milazzo was treated like a made member, no question, and I don't believe he would have been able to represent the Lucchese associates in a formal sitdown with Tieri if he wasn't recognized as a Lucchese member at the time. If he was a made member who transferred, there is no need to think of outliers, exceptions, or attitudes. At that time he would have been considered a Lucchese member and the usual rules apply.

[Wiseguy]

My theory is they understood that they couldnt stop the sicilians, in fact, were kinda obligated to accommodate them. So they took the next best step they could, and banned THEIR guys from engaging in it. That's the only way the whole thing makes any sense to me.

Well, in Castellano's case, he allowed guys like John Gambino and Patsy Conte to be involved. But their strong Sicilian connection may have been the difference (as opposed to the Gotti crew) but they were still members of the Gambino family.

[cobra]

Leonetti said Gambino was introduced to Scarfo as an "amico nostra" by Angelo Bruno in the 1970s but Scarfo didn't know his family association. Scarfo was surprised to find out from Gotti years later that Gambino was a Sicilian mafia member.

-i couldn't found it yet
-but franzese said he is friend with rosario in jail in 80s
-they are in the same cell together
-i wonder if he assume rosario is philly or he's introduced like so

[B.]

He must be mistaken. He'd have no reason to lie, might have just known Rosario was a made member who lived near Philly and assumed.

Would be interesting if someone was able to formally introduce Franzese and Gambino in prison. Franzese says he was introduced to his father as "amico nostra" on the telephone when his father was in prison, his cousin Carmine making the introduction. Not as crazy as it sounds when you figure they used to do formal introductions via letter. Makes me want to know if other guys have been introduced on the phone, especially in prison where it's difficult to make introductions.

When we see those group photos of made members in prison, I wonder how many of them were able to get formally introduced. Would be luck of the draw whether a made guy in prison ends up with members they've formally met and whether or not there is someone else who can make formal intros to other inmates.

With the Sicilian guys it would be especially difficult. We have those pictures of John Riggi and Gaetano Badalamenti looking like best buddies, but was there anyone who could introduce them?

Buscetta said the intro rule was one that was never broken.

[Frank]

He must be mistaken. He'd have no reason to lie, might have just known Rosario was a made member who lived near Philly and assumed.

Would be interesting if someone was able to formally introduce Franzese and Gambino in prison. Franzese says he was introduced to his father as "amico nostra" on the telephone when his father was in prison, his cousin Carmine making the introduction. Not as crazy as it sounds when you figure they used to do formal introductions via letter. Makes me want to know if other guys have been introduced on the phone, especially in prison where it's difficult to make introductions.

When we see those group photos of made members in prison, I wonder how many of them were able to get formally introduced. Would be luck of the draw whether a made guy in prison ends up with members they've formally met and whether or not there is someone else who can make formal intros to other inmates.

With the Sicilian guys it would be especially difficult. We have those pictures of John Riggi and Gaetano Badalamenti looking like best buddies, but was there anyone who could introduce them?

Buscetta said the intro rule was one that was never broken.

Scarfo and Amuso must have been introduced. I wonder if it was in prison or before.

[Frank]

Besides Philadelphia I wonder how much interfamily introductions still exist. Obviously the 5 Families of NY have many between them. John Matassa of Chicago is related to a Genovese member, but there would have to be a third party thats been introduced to both.

[Wiseguy]

Besides Philadelphia I wonder how much interfamily introductions still exist. Obviously the 5 Families of NY have many between them. John Matassa of Chicago is related to a Genovese member, but there would have to be a third party thats been introduced to both.

If you're talking general interaction, the New York families, mainly the Gambinos and Genovese, still have them to one degree or another with New Jersey, Philadelphia, and New England. Chicago is out on an island. Any crossing of paths is likely going to be in prison.

[B.]

Scarfo and Amuso must have been introduced. I wonder if it was in prison or before.

They had both been introduced to Michael Taccetta as members when they were on the street. He was away with both of them so he could have made the introduction if someone else didn't.

[cobra]

He must be mistaken. He'd have no reason to lie, might have just known Rosario was a made member who lived near Philly and assumed.

Would be interesting if someone was able to formally introduce Franzese and Gambino in prison. Franzese says he was introduced to his father as "amico nostra" on the telephone when his father was in prison, his cousin Carmine making the introduction. Not as crazy as it sounds when you figure they used to do formal introductions via letter. Makes me want to know if other guys have been introduced on the phone, especially in prison where it's difficult to make introductions.

When we see those group photos of made members in prison, I wonder how many of them were able to get formally introduced. Would be luck of the draw whether a made guy in prison ends up with members they've formally met and whether or not there is someone else who can make formal intros to other inmates.

With the Sicilian guys it would be especially difficult. We have those pictures of John Riggi and Gaetano Badalamenti looking like best buddies, but was there anyone who could introduce them?

Buscetta said the intro rule was one that was never broken.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5fFmN3H20M
after 8:25